Jesus Christ: the greatest story ever told?

[Brian2]

..but I'm not talking about "in the minds of people", I'm talking about what reliable historical scholars know about the last 2000 years..


I agree with you there. One has to look into all the details of a claim before making a conclusion.
"my church says so" is not good enough. It needs to be backed up with evidence.

Now, you claim the so-called Arians are / were heretics.
You say that believing Jesus is not God is heresy.
No .. it's purely political and you can't prove otherwise.

History shows that Constantine died as a so-called Arian.
..so why the big fuss?
Do you think that the Creator of the Universe needs people to make theological decisions with councils, and then kill the others who vote against?

God already had shown us in the Bible and in the writings of the early Church Fathers that Jesus is Divine and is our God. When it comes to organisations like the institutional Church that require set teachings then Councils and decisions are needed. Without these then anyone (Arius) could come along with wrong teachings and lead the Church astray. That sort of thing did happen in the Church anyway.

 

[Brian2]

It depends what "Church Fathers" they refer to.
Origen of Alexandria has been described as "the greatest genius the early church ever produced". He lived from about 185 - 253 AD.
I don't think he taught that Jesus is God.

In 397, Rufinus published a Latin translation of Origen's On First Principles. Rufinus was convinced that Origen's original treatise had been interpolated by heretics and that these interpolations were the source of the heterodox teachings found in it. He therefore heavily modified Origen's text, omitting and altering any parts which disagreed with contemporary Christian orthodoxy. In the introduction to this translation, Rufinus mentioned that Jerome had studied under Origen's disciple Didymus the Blind, implying that Jerome was a follower of Origen.

Jerome was so incensed by this that he resolved to produce his own Latin translation of On the First Principles, in which he promised to translate every word exactly as it was written and lay bare Origen's heresies to the whole world. Jerome's translation has been lost in its entirety.
Origen - Wikipedia

..so we no longer have the original "On the First Principles" written by Origen. That was one of the texts that was ordered to be destroyed.

OK

 

[Brian2]

Jesus was executed by Rome.

Well you don't believe the gospel stories about Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

Keep reading past verse 4. If the meaning was a plurality then 6:13 would not be written in singular.

View attachment 67525

I have no problem with God being said to be one God in any part of the Bible.

 

[Brian2]

The reason that echad is the perfect word choice is because the word echad is the numeral "one". God is number 1. It's that simple. Complicating it with a compound one is wishful thinking.

Echad is complicated as possibly meaning a compound one. Yachid is not complicated like that.
God was saying what was needed at the time, that there is only one God, and that is how it was understood. The compound potential of the word was pointed out later.
God would be what God shows Himself to be and echad always left a compound one as a potential for what God would show Himself to be.

 

[Brian2]

1) "He was spiritually aware that his time to die had not yet come" = divination of an auspicious time, nachash, the way of the serpent
2) "The fact that he was aware that his death was determined by his Father demonstrates that he walked by the Spirit, as prophets must do." I have never heard of another established Jewish prophet who prolaimed auspicous times for events. If you can find one, then that will resolve the problem for me.

Thank you,

Proclaiming auspicious times is what many Jewish prophets did through the Spirit of God.
Which prophets proclaimed to coming Day of the Lord etc etc etc.

 

[rational experiences]

Scientists as man. With rich men are con men. Says natural history.

Advice. Natural. Imagine you all suddenly dropped dead. Humans would live without you naturally.

So in nature rich is a lie and so is science. It was only a living human man's choice.

Brain prickled first man's conscious thoughts were not rational anymore. The first theist.

Father rational conscious man tried to reason with him. The story says. You brothers would not listen to his man's spiritual advice about man's statement God.

Now you liar rich hypocrite said no man is God.
You however had... been ...were and still are today self Idolating your own human man's self importance.

Divinity you said was father.

Jesus equates by code letter number about Phi. Which men in science aren't telling you the public about.

Phi was a calculated human mans belief only.

Now hell argue. He will argue.. get the message! The man Jesus had theoried Phi calculus proven was both criminal...to get life sacrificed....yet survived to tell father's human only holy advices.

Ignored as you self idolated.

He theories before any greatest coldest position fixed. Anything it's number one ownership.

As any gas by colour or type is its highest greatest.

He changed all of it...spirit gas the colours.

The not Jesus father se Phi Roth.

Your man's calculus....as you man have never owned the planets mass or the heavens mass. Change in the bodies natural law.

You didn't own natural law machine one reaction two. Changed both masses.

You caused unnatural fallout yourselves.

Io seph....man's teachings father said wasn't Phi...gases as colours.

GOD...stopped the sink hole opening as he is ....Jesus themed about grounds mass first by the man of science.

In Australia we have lots of flooding right now. My husband out the back cropping with a flooding creek.

Seems it's threatening said my phone message.

 

[rational experiences]

Father said you ignore your own advice.

Baby man brother sacrificed our life by using Phi calculus caused fallout of our cold gases.

Held in voiding vacuum is the first origin and natural sacrificed body one of only womb position. Holy protection.

Jesus said he was both criminal and his teachings saved mankind from their self deceit.

Stating in humans owned future my father's teaching is not God and is not baby man will be known again.

As he knew....

Father man is origin life.

Baby man adult brain prickled was given man's science advice. Father said ignore it...yet he wouldn't.

Brother is a baby son as a man and also our father for a long time since. Same man.

Is the aware Roman advice...heed this advice man brother. Baby men as father's son yet is a father too. One life one mind only....not a scientist.

Now your consciousness is changed. When it returns healed in our future you'll be told again by my teachings why you are wrong.

As he knew.

The greatest of men the hypocrite confessed I had lied. I then realised. Now I'll tell my father's truth. As lying or truth telling isn't natural. Natural you just live and you're aware you live supported.

Lying telling truth is a realisation.

It takes a huge amount of courage to admit you're wrong. Why confession became the practice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well you don't believe the gospel stories about Jesus.

That's true, but there is a kernel of history. Even the gospels, despite their attempt to blame the jews, preserve the record of Pontius Pilate being the one responsible for the decision. I mean, you can't really excuse him of his responsibility just because he supposedly washed his hands. LOL

 

[Brian2]

That's true, but there is a kernel of history. Even the gospels, despite their attempt to blame the jews, preserve the record of Pontius Pilate being the one responsible for the decision. I mean, you can't really excuse him of his responsibility just because he supposedly washed his hands. LOL

Yes Pontius Pilate should bear some of the guilt. It says he did try to get Jesus released but to no avail, the forces against him were too strong it seems and it was easy for him to crumble, being a bit of an a..hole anyway.
But Jesus said that the ones who brought Him to Pontius Pilate are guilty of a greater sin. (John 19:11)
The Jews who handed Jesus to Pontius Pilate had no authority to condemn and hand over an innocent man for the death penalty to Pilate.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Umm. Your definition seems to be off. Casting lots is 100% kosher. Look back to the yearly atonement ritual (Yom Kippur) in Leviticus. They cast lots to see which animal was sacrificed and which one was sent into the wilderness. The prohibition we're talking about is, "וּמְנַחֵ֖שׁ". The kjv translates this as "one who interprets omens". It's at least related to how Bilaam prophesied. This is disclosed in Numbers 24:1 "[Bilaam] did not, as at other times, seek נְחָשִׁ֑ים...". So simply taking the definition as "divination" is not going to be entirely accurate.

Just because it was revealed in prophecy, doesn't mean that the method for obtaining the prophecy is allowed for a Jewish prophet. Remember, the claim was (paraphrasing) "Jesus was the prophet spoken about in Deuteronomy 18:15". He can still be a prophet even if he's not the prophet or practicing Judaism.

I don't disagree. But that doesn't help. What's needed is an example of another Jewish prophet who portends when they are supposed to die. Otherwise, it's not a stretch to consider the possibility that Jesus was not following Jewish law during his ministry.

The topic is וּמְנַחֵ֖שׁ, a prohibition which would disqualify a prophet from the Jewish community. What does Psalm 22 have to do with it?

If we're being reminded of scripture though, I'd like to remind you that if you compare what Bilaam says ( Numbers 23:12 ) with what Jesus says ( John 12:49 ), there is a similarity to their approach.

I think you're clutching at straws, here!

In Samuel 13:22, it says that Balaam, the son of Beor, the soothsayer, was slain by lsrael. This man was not raised as a prophet by God, and in Numbers 22 it says that he had to be forcibly prevented from doing the will of the princes of Moab. In verse 32, the angel of the LORD says, 'l went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:'

There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was a false prophet, or a soothsayer. Yet, the prophecies of the Tanakh all point to one man fulfilling the role of Messiah.

King David, one of many characters who prefigure the Christ, was also a prophet and king, and, foreshadowing Jesus, he received his anointing a number of years before being crowned king over Judah and lsrael. During his years under the anointing, David was a prophet. I believe Psalms 6, 7 and 11 were composed during the days he was alienated from Saul. The point l'm making is that the king Messiah is a prophet before his coronation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

OK

You understand what I'm saying?
The texts that we have today, seem to show that Christians have always been Trinitarian, and that the others are heretics.
The Nag Hamedi library was an interesting find.
It includes texts that were ordered to be destroyed, but not all.

Anyhow, I accept that people differ on their opinion about whether Jesus is God.
I consider Trinitarians to be "my brother Christians".
It is a pity that we have all become so brainwashed by political history.

 

[rational experiences]

If men said I thesis huge destructive reactive earth. As themes first. Science in natural laws...it's not science.

As in fact my intentions said my science brother is reacting only inside said machine.

However if natural law was activated I'd be ripping earth apart to get exact equals my theory cold melt in laws of space my machine. Inside deep earth.

So father who you never have known brother since brain burnt by falling star...allowed my life to know him.

Now if you ask did I believe in him?

No...not as a term God.

I heard as a female my crying recording for his removal out of our life. As a daughter. I know my bio father was nothing like him.

My father in fact abusive. Yet I loved my father and forgave his own suffering.

I knew he was emotionally damaged.

I believe him implicitly.

I knew why my brother said you had never known him as sacrificed man. As you hadn't.

He told you only came to know him when sacrificed. I think my life and conscious self proves that reality. By my experience.

My story is true. I have come to know him.

I know he is warning you about what you have theoried to obtain.

A status no machine is involved with by law only natural advice first. Exact correct position...not built yet.

Instead here you are owning multiple built machines.

So you have in fact taken away mass via ended Infinity and removed by owning said machine a historic huge spatial mass removal.

As just a machine.

Is our fathers warning to you as a man and theist who lied.

The theme Jesus king lord scientist criminal did it to himself. As king lord living statuses are owned only by man in civilisation.

Beginning status man is not owner of any amount of numbered mass power. God earth dusts. To reacting said mass to get power. Inheritor of the power of God in man's science.

Was life sacrificed as a man. Understood why. Heard our holy father speaking to him from heavens warnings. By Amassed transmitting cooling communicators. Taught you All himself.

What I learnt trusting father.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes Pontius Pilate should bear some of the guilt. It says he did try to get Jesus released but to no avail, the forces against him were too strong it seems and it was easy for him to crumble, being a bit of an a..hole anyway.
But Jesus said that the ones who brought Him to Pontius Pilate are guilty of a greater sin. (John 19:11)
The Jews who handed Jesus to Pontius Pilate had no authority to condemn and hand over an innocent man for the death penalty to Pilate.

That is because Christians try very hard to blame the Jews. It's the oldest Christian antisemitic trope in the world that the Jews are responsible for Jesus' death.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That is because Christians try very hard to blame the Jews. It's the oldest Christian antisemitic trope in the world that the Jews are responsible for Jesus' death.

Jesus was a Jew..
Was he responsible for his own death?

 

[rational experiences]

The history greedy rich men in trade is still the same today.

Kings designer of civilisation unnatural men group...lords of trade.

King high priest scientist with his lords.

King both king and lord.

The rich.

History is natural human family first no such status as rich.

Rich with God meant men said I'll act like a God. I'll take all my power status from planet earths body.

Is real history.

So you have rich king lord whose life family abusive first gets Sacrificed too.

You do a self assessment. He hears father via Ai accumulative heavens effect...speaking voice.

He realises he was wrong. Innocent of evil thoughts as his consciousness had been attacked. Had not listened to father's warning about Satan star effect...now was.

We're all the same nations family first.

DNA attacked in attack. Life very hurt the warning. Because of nuclear technology. The mind possession.

As Sion is about fusion and fission...possess Sion.

The teaching.

So innocent humanity listened to evil instead of father. As humanity was in fact first natural and naturally loving and spiritual.

Innocence learnt taught the story. What did it matter if you're rich or poor as everyone was hurt?

The realisation however said if the king rich lords circumstance hadn't been accepted life would be safe.

Therefore Rome was in takeover mode. English became new slaves to Egyptian pyramid technology. The teaching.

However other rich humans accepted agreed with technology too. In Egypt and Jewish communities.

Two types of aware Phi teachings emerging.

As poor humans who had healed and gained back healthy babies. Saw life sacrifice sickness return. Jewish Christian slave movement.

As in past you'd find men kept separated from women. Had ceremonies for gained pregnancy in times of year they thought assisted healthy babies.

So hierarchy is always involved in the get rich scheme. Phi was agreed by Jewish Egyptian Roman hierarchy. Technology calculus use.

Known by the head mind placing O advice as bio heard and gained by mans head consciousness. Very dangerous thinking.

Therefore of course king line was involved in accepting technology. Average slave poor person taught otherwise as victims.

So there are always two opposing realisations. The poor petitioned for human rights...the rich killed them.

Same old story.

Therefore Jesus by teaching Phi owns two stories. The rich king lord...advice for destruction just as stated. Poor humanity fought for human rights won.

As their evidence and realisations correct.

You cannot blame a nation....you however can blame the greedy rich in any nation.

 

[dybmh]

In Samuel 13:22, it says that Balaam, the son of Beor, the soothsayer, was slain by lsrael. This man was not raised as a prophet by God, and in Numbers 22 it says that he had to be forcibly prevented from doing the will of the princes of Moab. In verse 32, the angel of the LORD says, 'l went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:'

Balaam was absolutley a prophet of God. He just wouldn't be accepted in the Jewish community as their prophet. Anyway, what do you think it means when God puts words into Balaam's mouth? It's the same as saying you only speak what The Father tells you to speak.

There is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was a false prophet, or a soothsayer. Yet, the prophecies of the Tanakh all point to one man fulfilling the role of Messiah.

You don't seem to have the knowledge to identify the transgressions that are occuring.

King David, one of many characters who prefigure the Christ, was also a prophet and king, and, foreshadowing Jesus, he received his anointing a number of years before being crowned king over Judah and lsrael. During his years under the anointing, David was a prophet. I believe Psalms 6, 7 and 11 were composed during the days he was alienated from Saul. The point l'm making is that the king Messiah is a prophet before his coronation.

A Jewish prophet would not schedule their death for a specific, beneficial time.

 

[dybmh]

I have no problem with God being said to be one God in any part of the Bible.

OK Great! I took a look at the document you brought comparing echad with yachid. Here's a link in case you need it:
In what sense is 'echad' [one] used in the Shema?

What I notice is that everytime that ehcad is read as a compound the text says what those two items are which are combined. In other words, a compound echad is qualified. All the examples where echad is absolute without division, echad is unqualified.

In Deuteronomy 6:4, the echad is unqualified, "... the Lord your God is one." One, period, unqualified, end of statement, absolute unity without division.

In Genesis 1:5 echad is qualified as one day, "... it was evening and it was morning, one day", one day, qualified, evening and morning are joined, it's compound.

In Genesis 2:24 echad is qualified as one flesh, " ... and they shall be joined together as one flesh." One flesh, qualified, male flesh and female flesh are joined, it's compound.

Do you understand?

 

[dybmh]

Echad is complicated as possibly meaning a compound one. Yachid is not complicated like that.
God was saying what was needed at the time, that there is only one God, and that is how it was understood. The compound potential of the word was pointed out later.
God would be what God shows Himself to be and echad always left a compound one as a potential for what God would show Himself to be.

Sorry, it's completely non-scriptural until the NT. It's an innovation, take credit for it. It doesn't come from Tanach. Why do you care?

 

[dybmh]

Proclaiming auspicious times is what many Jewish prophets did through the Spirit of God.
Which prophets proclaimed to coming Day of the Lord etc etc etc.

No, not really. If you bring an example, I should be able to show that it's not manipulating events so that they occur at a favorable time. If you need an example from me, take a look at Ezekiel 39. It's a prophecy about the end times, but makes no effort to control the situation to occur at a specific time hoping to bring a more favorable result.