Jesus did not die on the Cross

[firedragon]

Does the Quran lie?

When the angel appeared to Mary to announce the birth of Jesus, he said in Sura 19:19 (Mariam) - "'I am the messenger of your Lord,' he replied, 'and have come to give you a holy son.'"

If the word "holy" is not found in the Quran, then does this mean Allah is not holy?

The God of Christians is holy.

Leviticus 19:2 says the Lord God is holy.

“Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy.

The God as explained in the Quran is more than Holy. The God is beyond comprehension. Walam yakullahoo kufuwan ahadh.

 

[firedragon]

Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Read Acts 9.

We do not accept that Muhammed had a divine revelation because Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote the the Scriptures were all a man needed to be complete.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible is all that is needed.

Paul did not meet Jesus. He proclaimed divine revelation form Jesus.

I know you do not accept Muhammed. Your answer is "because paul inspired by the Holy spirit wrote the scriptures etc". Why the double standards? If you think about it, if paul can claim it, so can Muhammed. Muhammed claims to have divine revelation. If you may, through the Holy Spirit.

And if Paul was inspired by the Holy spirit, it is divine revelation to kill makoi or soft men, arsenokoites or homosexuals. Women should wear head cover when praying or their head should be shaved. Women are directly inferior to men in 1 Corinthians. Directly. No ambiguity.

Paul says that church leaders in Jerusalem endorsed his law-free mission to the Gentiles and “added nothing” to it (Gal. 2:6–10); Acts says that they assigned Paul the task of disseminating a list of legal requirements for Gentiles to keep (Acts 15:22–29)

 

[Pastek]

Yes Jesus has a special characteristic. Jesus was holy according to Quran and the Bible, which means He was SINLESS, PURE, FAULTLESS, AND YES RIGHTEOUS.

What other prophet can you say this about from either the Quran or Bible?

The word from 19.19 is not "holy" which is like i already said in arabic "qods".

But it says a "pure" son, which is in arabic "zakiya".

As for whas Jesus and his mother sinless, i'm not sure about the position of the scholars.
It's true that according to a hadith it says that Mary was protected since her birth from the "touch" of Satan (meaning he can't influence her) because her mother made a prayer accepted by Allah.

3.36-37 (...) I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.
And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian.


So does that mean they are both divine ? Of course no.

 

[katiemygirl]

This is Zakaa. Not holy, its pure/virtuous. There are many references to pure soul, and pure you will be when God purifies you. Dont misread and make a mountain out of a mole.

Of course Jesus was virtuous. Of course he was pure. He is afterall, the messiah. Masih. Christ. The prophet of God.

So the version of the Quran, which I cited, is wrong?

 

[firedragon]

So the version of the Quran, which I cited, is wrong?

The so called "version" you cited said pure. Not holy. Now if you read my post again, you will understand the rest I have to say.

 

[katiemygirl]

Hmm. Why do you look at the thimble in my eye while there is a plank in yours.

Generally when a person asks a question of someone, that someone will answer the question b4 asking their own questions. That's how it works in the society I live in. I don't know about the society you live in.

It's funny because I asked questions that could have been answered in one short sentence. They were not in the least bit offensive.

I have concluded that the Muslims on this thread are not interested in a dialogue, nor are they representative of the entire Muslim population.

Fortunately, the few Muslim folks I do know are not like that, so I will continue to think positively about these people in general. Most Muslim people are good, and they are willing to have two sided conversations. I won't allow the Muslims on this thread to define all Muslims, or change my opinion about Muslim people overall.

 

[katiemygirl]

The so called "version" you cited said pure. Not holy. Now if you read my post again, you will understand the rest I have to say.

Is this so-called version corrupt?

When the angel appeared to Mary to announce the birth of Jesus, he said in Sura 19:19 (Mariam),

"'I am the messenger of your Lord,' he replied, 'and have come to give you a holy son.'"

 

[firedragon]

Generally when a person asks a question of someone, that someone will answer the question b4 asking their own questions. That's how it works in the society I live in. I don't know about the society you live in.

It's funny because I asked questions that could have been answered in one short sentence. They were not in the least bit offensive.

I have concluded that the Muslims on this thread are not interested in a dialogue, nor are they representative of the entire Muslim population.

Fortunately, the few Muslim folks I do know are not like that, so I will continue to think positively about these people in general. Most Muslim people are good, and they are willing to have two sided conversations. I won't allow the Muslims on this thread to define all Muslims, or change my opinion about Muslim people overall.

Look back Katie. You haven't answered many of my posts I quote you in. I'm sure you get alerts.

Also you have asked some person or persons if he had read your bible from cover to cover. That's a valid question. But have you read the Quran from cover to cover?

 

[katiemygirl]

Look back Katie. You haven't answered many of my posts I quote you in. I'm sure you get alerts.

Also you have asked some person or persons if he had read your bible from cover to cover. That's a valid question. But have you read the Quran from cover to cover?

No I have not, nor have I made the claim that it has been changed, corrupted, etc.

I have only recently begun to look at the Quran. I am especially interested in what the Quran says about Jesus.

You, on the other hand, have made claims that the Bible has been changed. Yet you offer no valid proof, and refuse to answer whether you have ever read the Bible. You could have answered with a simple yes or no.

I cannot possibly address all of the points you raise. I would need to spend my entire life doing nothing but responding to your points, there are so many. Also, you have a tendency to skip around, jumping from one topic to another, never exhausting a single one.

I really don't think you are interested in a two sided conversation.

If you want to debate with me, you need to stick to one point, and one only, and agree to answer all questions. I would hold myself to the same standards. Otherwise, I won't bother to respond to any of your posts.

I leave it up to you.

 

[firedragon]

Is this so-called version corrupt?

When the angel appeared to Mary to announce the birth of Jesus, he said in Sura 19:19 (Mariam),

"'I am the messenger of your Lord,' he replied, 'and have come to give you a holy son.'"

I know what ur trying Katie, this is not a version like the bible versions. Which bible to you believe? 75 books? So you believe in Clement? Do you believe in barnabus?

What translation are you using Katie? You want to show that these are versions? Have you not seen that at least two people have shown you what it means? At least I say again.

A version is when the original text changes. Not when a translation differs. Thus lets not play gutter games.

If you don't want to accept that zaka or the used zakiya means pure or righteous prove it. You have ignored every single answer to your valiant attempt to show that Jesus is holy in the Quran.

If you read arguments in the most common websites that has information to support your efforts you will be misguided for sure.

Holy for you in English may mean some divine matter, but that's an English word. Some Arabic words have to be explained. You can't define it why one word in the English language. If you want to you can understand or you can follow the majority and went no matter what.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

No I have not, nor have I made the claim that it has been changed, corrupted, etc.

I have only recently begun to look at the Quran. I am especially interested in what the Quran says about Jesus.

You, on the other hand, have made claims that the Bible has been changed. Yet you offer no valid proof, and refuse to answer whether you have ever read the Bible. You could have answered with a simple yes or no.

I cannot possibly address all of the points you raise. I would need to spend my entire life doing nothing but responding to your points, there are so many. Also, you have a tendency to skip around, jumping from one topic to another, never exhausting a single one.

I really don't think you are interested in a two sided conversation.

If you want to debate with me, you need to stick to one point, and one only, and agree to answer all questions. I would hold myself to the same standards. Otherwise, I won't bother to respond to any of your posts.

I leave it up to you.

Let me say one sentence.

You never asked me if I read the bible? You asked someone else and have seen the post.

But if you asked me, I would only say with all humility, that yes I have read it. Every book init and every book taken out recently.

Cheers.

 

[katiemygirl]

I know what ur trying Katie, this is not a version like the bible versions. Which bible to you believe? 75 books? So you believe in Clement? Do you believe in barnabus?

What translation are you using Katie? You want to show that these are versions? Have you not seen that at least two people have shown you what it means? At least I say again.

A version is when the original text changes. Not when a translation differs. Thus lets not play gutter games.

If you don't want to accept that zaka or the used zakiya means pure or righteous prove it. You have ignored every single answer to your valiant attempt to show that Jesus is holy in the Quran.

If you read arguments in the most common websites that has information to support your efforts you will be misguided for sure.

Holy for you in English may mean some divine matter, but that's an English word. Some Arabic words have to be explained. You can't define it why one word in the English language. If you want to you can understand or you can follow the majority and went no matter what.

Peace.

Let me understand. The verse I quoted is from one of the translations, not versions, of the Quran, correct?

I am not disagreeing with your definition. I am agreeing with you that it means pure, righteous.

But for some reason, which I don't understand, you keep denying that the word HOLY is used in the translation I quoted.

Can you please tell me what other prophet in the Quran is said to be "zaka," or "zakiya?"

 

[katiemygirl]

Let me say one sentence.

You never asked me if I read the bible? You asked someone else and have seen the post.

But if you asked me, I would only say with all humility, that yes I have read it. Every book init and every book taken out recently.

Cheers.

Thank you.

 

[firedragon]

Let me understand. The verse I quoted is from one of the translations, not versions, of the Quran, correct?

I am not disagreeing with your definition. I am agreeing with you that it means pure, righteous.

But for some reason, which I don't understand, you keep denying that the word HOLY is used in the translation I quoted.

Can you please tell me what other prophet in the Quran is said to be "zaka," or "zakiya?"

Forget prophet, there are almost 60 usages of this word in various forms. Even people are called pure.

No, no other prophet has been addressed as pure/virtuous or zaka. But there are other attributes. Ibrahim is waliullah.

Quran in various ways tells all of us not to distinguish between one messenger to another. All messengers are the same to us. If one is exalted above the other for us, then it would state it.

I know many Christian sites use 19:19 to prove that Jesus is divine and more important than others. But thats absurd. Mary is mentioned more than Jesus in the Quran. 32 times. Jesus 25 times. Does that mean Mary is above Jesus? All messengers are the same. I understand your theology, but you cant justify your theology with the Quran because you believe the Quran is false, completely. Written by a false prophet. Influence of a false prophet.

We believe Jesus is a messenger of God. He is the Masih. He performed miracles. He was born through Gods will, not a human seed. We believe his disciples were muslims. Thus we believe that there has to be some of his wisdom and revelations in the bible.

 

[katiemygirl]

="firedragon, post: 4737148, member: 45358"]
No, no other prophet has been addressed as pure/virtuous or zaka. But there are other attributes. Ibrahim is waliullah.

I used the verse to show that Jesus was without sin.

Thank you for answering my question. No other prophet in the Quran is said to be pure and righteous other than Jesus. He is without sin.

The Bible says the same about YHWH. He is holy, pure, righteous.

I'm sure the Quran says this about Allah as well, though I do not know which verses.

To be pure and righteous means sinless, faultless.

In summary, YHWH, Allah and Jesus are the only three this is said about in both the Quran and the Bible.

Maybe we can finally agree on something.

 

[firedragon]

I used the verse to show that Jesus was without sin.

Thank you for answering my question. No other prophet in the Quran is said to be pure and righteous other than Jesus. He is without sin.

The Bible says the same about YHWH. He is holy, pure, righteous.

I'm sure the Quran says this about Allah as well, though I do not know which verses.

To be pure and righteous means sinless, faultless.

In summary, YHWH, Allah and Jesus are the only three this is said about in both the Quran and the Bible.

Maybe we can finally agree on something.

Zakiya coming from zakawa does not mean sinless. Though we believe all prophet's were sinless, righteous and virtuous. Your assumption is wrong.

Don't be so sure about what the Quran says about God. Tell you what, reead the last few chapters. You will see.

You make a weird assumption that yhwh, Allah and Jesus are somehow equal. These conclusions are what you like, not what scripture says. Even the bible says that my father is greater than I.

As I said already, there are various things said about messengers. Muhammed is the seal. Abraham is waliullah. But still the Quran says they are all equal for us. I already said this. We don't cherry pick one verse about one of them to distinguish him because God is greater than our who and our desires.

 

[firedragon]

My phone is a bi(tch.

 

[katiemygirl]

Zakiya coming from zakawa does not mean sinless. Though we believe all prophet's were sinless, righteous and virtuous. Your assumption is wrong.

Don't be so sure about what the Quran says about God. Tell you what, reead the last few chapters. You will see.

You make a weird assumption that yhwh, Allah and Jesus are somehow equal. These conclusions are what you like, not what scripture says. Even the bible says that my father is greater than I.

As I said already, there are various things said about messengers. Muhammed is the seal. Abraham is waliullah. But still the Quran says they are all equal for us. I already said this. We don't cherry pick one verse about one of them to distinguish him because God is greater than our who and our desires.

Can you show me in the Quran a prophet who is said to be righteous or pure?

I made no assumption that God, Jesus and Allah are equal. I think you are reading your thoughts into my words. I believe you told me that the Quran says that Allah is pure and righteous. The Bible says God and Jesus are pure and righteous, which means they are sinless.

All I am trying to do is get you to admit is that Jesus is sinless. Is that so hard for you to do considering the Quran says Jesus is holy, or pure and righteous as you prefer to say?

Now I have an important question to ask. If you can't answer, I can ask someone else. When you pray to Allah, are the prayers recitations or do you actually have a conversation with Allah? I ask not for the purpose of insulting you. When I pray to God, I do not recite prayers. I talk to God as I would a friend. I thank Him for His many blessings. I ask Him to help me with various problems. I praise Him and tell Him how wonderful He is. The words in my prayer come from my heart. I am happy to tell you, God answers my prayers. He has blessed me in so many ways with a good family, a happy home, and good health.

 

[paarsurrey]

@katiemygirl
Jesus himself acknowledged with certainty that John the Baptist was greater than him:

Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
New International Version​

So, you should not insist that Jesus was greater than him.
Regards

 

[firedragon]

Can you show me in the Quran a prophet who is said to be righteous or pure?

I made no assumption that God, Jesus and Allah are equal. I think you are reading your thoughts into my words. I believe you told me that the Quran says that Allah is pure and righteous. The Bible says God and Jesus are pure and righteous, which means they are sinless.

All I am trying to do is get you to admit is that Jesus is sinless. Is that so hard for you to do considering the Quran says Jesus is holy, or pure and righteous as you prefer to say?

Now I have an important question to ask. If you can't answer, I can ask someone else. When you pray to Allah, are the prayers recitations or do you actually have a conversation with Allah? I ask not for the purpose of insulting you. When I pray to God, I do not recite prayers. I talk to God as I would a friend. I thank Him for His many blessings. I ask Him to help me with various problems. I praise Him and tell Him how wonderful He is. The words in my prayer come from my heart. I am happy to tell you, God answers my prayers. He has blessed me in so many ways with a good family, a happy home, and good health.

1. Your assumption - yhwh, Allah, Jesus are all equal. Wrong.

2. Quran says all messengers are equal. No distinguishing in between them.

3. Jesus was born pure/virtuous. Ibrahim is friend of God. Who is superior? No one is.

4. I did admit Jesus is sinless. If you didn't see that you are blind.

5. Personal prayers, I can lie to you about. I prefer to talk with scriptural evidence for my or your statements.

Peace.