Jesus did not die on the Cross

[outhouse]

What is the correct attitude in your opinion
Do you have evidence
We Christians have
Proof
History of books
Because a book like the Bible were the focus of the movement of the Middle East
Over 3500 years
Cannot be burned by what the man came from the Arabian Desert

No you have faith, not proof.

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
Jesus was dead when they took his body down after crucifixion. The soldiers had checked, then pierced him with a spear to make sure. Those that handled his body were also sure he was dead.

Look again at the Psalm of David.
'For thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' (Psalm 16:10)

When a person dies their soul descends into sheol, the grave, there to await the resurrection. In the case of Jesus, however, the soul was not left in sheol, nor did his body become corrupt; both his body and soul were raised up after three days and nights. This is the first resurrection, and Jesus was the firstfruits of the harvest.

Revelation 20:6. 'Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.'

If you are part of the first resurrection from the dead, then you will reign with Christ in his kingdom. Your body and soul will be raised incorruptible and immortal. (I Corinthians 15)

The death of the body is the first death, and it is not the death that is to be feared. The death to be feared is the second death, with is forever, and comes after judgement.

Here is what Jesus said; 'And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him [God]which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.' (Matthew 10:28)

When you see the word 'sheol' used, you know that it is the state of death.

 

[Shad]

Shad,
It's worth looking at the 'whale story' a little closer!
When the scribes and pharisees demanded that Jesus show them a sign to prove he was the Christ, Jesus said, 'For as Jonas was three days and nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.' (Matt. 12:40)
He also said;'An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.' (Matt.12:39)

So Jesus himself points to the story of Jonah as an important sign demonstrating the authenticity of his ministry. What is he pointing to? To the fact that as the Christ and Saviour he, Jesus, will have to die. He will die and then remain in the grave for three days and three nights.

Some people think that Jonah never died when he entered the whale's belly, but the text clearly states that he did. The same was true of Jesus.

'Out of the belly of hell (sheol) cried I' (Jonah 2:2)
Sheol is the place where the souls of the dead descend.
'For thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' (Psalm 16:10)

Like Jonah, the soul of Jesus descended into sheol.
This is confirmed in Ephesians 8:9, 10 where it says,'Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended above all heavens, that he might fill all things.' (Ephesians 4:8,9)

We are told that Christ preached to the departed souls so that his word might fill all things.

Jesus says these things to the Pharisees whilst free and under no threat of crucifixion. To the likes of Outhouse, it is prophecies like this that should add credibility to both Jesus as a true prophet and the Bible as a true prophecy. A true prophet does not provide false information about future events.

Thanks for the Christian perspective. A view which is probably better argued by those that accept it rather than reject it like myself.

 

[Shad]

So, you agree that Jesus did not die on the Cross; he was delivered from it in the near-dead position and put in a solitary tomb for treatment; when Jesus recovered from unconsciousness; he cried.

Regards

There are two views, Jonah died and was resurrected. Jonah didn't die. Redemption supports the former, you support the later. Redemption disagrees with you.

Do you have issues with reading comprehension?

 

[outhouse]

Do you have issues with reading comprehension?

Yes he does.

 

[Shad]

What is the correct attitude in your opinion
Do you have evidence
We Christians have
Proof
History of books
Because a book like the Bible were the focus of the movement of the Middle East
Over 3500 years
Cannot be burned by what the man came from the Arabian Desert

You have claims in books, not proof. You are confusing the two.

 

[Redemptionsong]

outhouse,
Muslims already believe in God's existence. The question is whether or not God has revealed his will through the prophecy of the Bible or the Qur'an. I am saying they cannot both be true. You are suggesting that maybe both are false. But to a Muslim this is impossible since the one God belief (monotheism) is traditionally an Abrahamic belief. If the truth is not to be found in one of these three monotheistic faiths, then it cannot exist, and that is a complete denial of God. As far as I know, no other faiths or religions make the claims that these three faiths make regarding the inerrancy or inspiration of their scriptures. Do you know of any?

 

[paarsurrey]

Shad,
It's worth looking at the 'whale story' a little closer!
When the scribes and pharisees demanded that Jesus show them a sign to prove he was the Christ, Jesus said, 'For as Jonas was three days and nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.' (Matt. 12:40)
He also said;'An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.' (Matt.12:39)

So Jesus himself points to the story of Jonah as an important sign demonstrating the authenticity of his ministry. What is he pointing to? To the fact that as the Christ and Saviour he, Jesus, will have to die. He will die and then remain in the grave for three days and three nights.

Some people think that Jonah never died when he entered the whale's belly, but the text clearly states that he did. The same was true of Jesus.

'Out of the belly of hell (sheol) cried I' (Jonah 2:2)
Sheol is the place where the souls of the dead descend.
'For thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.' (Psalm 16:10)

Like Jonah, the soul of Jesus descended into sheol.
This is confirmed in Ephesians 8:9, 10 where it says,'Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended above all heavens, that he might fill all things.' (Ephesians 4:8,9)

We are told that Christ preached to the departed souls so that his word might fill all things.

Jesus says these things to the Pharisees whilst free and under no threat of crucifixion. To the likes of Outhouse, it is prophecies like this that should add credibility to both Jesus as a true prophet and the Bible as a true prophecy. A true prophet does not provide false information about future events.

For as Jonas was three days and nights in the whale's belly
Matt. 12:40

Did anyone notice the corruption made by the Church in Book of Jonah?:

Jonah - Chapter 2:1-3
1. And the Lord appointed a huge fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights.
2. And Jonah prayed to the Lord his God, from the belly of the fish. 3. And he said: I called out from my distress to the Lord, and He answered me; from the belly of the grave I cried out, You heard my voice.
3. And he said: I called out from my distress to the Lord, and He answered me; from the belly of the grave I cried out, You heard my voice.

Yonah - Chapter 2 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Book of Jonah mention that Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights; and the NT Bible courtesy the Church have corrupted it and changed it to three days and nights.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

outhouse,
Muslims already believe in God's existence. The question is whether or not God has revealed his will through the prophecy of the Bible or the Qur'an. I am saying they cannot both be true. You are suggesting that maybe both are false. But to a Muslim this is impossible since the one God belief (monotheism) is traditionally an Abrahamic belief. If the truth is not to be found in one of these three monotheistic faiths, then it cannot exist, and that is a complete denial of God. As far as I know, no other faiths or religions make the claims that these three faiths make regarding the inerrancy or inspiration of their scriptures. Do you know of any?

I am well aware of muslim fanaticism to avoid credible history.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Shad,
Why do you reject these scriptures?

 

[paarsurrey]

outhouse,
Muslims already believe in God's existence. The question is whether or not God has revealed his will through the prophecy of the Bible or the Qur'an. I am saying they cannot both be true. You are suggesting that maybe both are false. But to a Muslim this is impossible since the one God belief (monotheism) is traditionally an Abrahamic belief. If the truth is not to be found in one of these three monotheistic faiths, then it cannot exist, and that is a complete denial of God. As far as I know, no other faiths or religions make the claims that these three faiths make regarding the inerrancy or inspiration of their scriptures. Do you know of any?

the one God belief (monotheism) is traditionally an Abrahamic belief

Other nations had also prophets who believed in Monotheism or One-True-God; like Zoroaster.

Regards

 

[Shad]

Shad,
Why do you reject these scriptures?

Due to archaeological evidence against many of the stories within the early parts of the Torah and Duet. The common religious ideology does not match factual history. This is not the thread to discuss my religious views. Let's just say there is a massive difference between factual archaeological history and that from scripture.

 

[Shad]

Other nations had also prophets who believed in Monotheism or One-True-God; like Zoroaster.

Regards

Zoroaster and Zoroastrianism did not preach the same ideas as a whole. In fact it influenced Judaism to a level that Judaism changed during the Babylonian Exile. The current OT is a post-Babylonian re-write. Judaism assimilated Zoroastrianism ideas. You claim it was the same god. I claim it was being opportunistic.

 

[outhouse]

If the truth is not to be found in one of these three monotheistic faiths, then it cannot exist, and that is a complete denial of God.

Abraham does not exist as a historical figure.

He exist as a mythological figure.


This leaves all these Abrahamic theist in an interpretation and context issues with reality.


And those who will have the biggest problem, will factually be those who are following fanaticism.

 

[paarsurrey]

Zoroaster and Zoroastrianism did not preach the same ideas as a whole. In fact it influenced Judaism to a level that Judaism changed during the Babylonian Exile. The current OT is a post-Babylonian re-write. Judaism assimilated Zoroastrianism ideas. You claim it was the same god. I claim it was being opportunistic.

The source of both the prophets, Zoroaster and Moses, was the same G-d (One-True-God) who conversed with them and gave them the message for their people; the difference in the attributes of G-d is due to corruptions made by the narrators/scribes/clergy.

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
You seem to be moving away from the question of Jesus' death by crucifixion.

I'd like to share one more astonishing piece of prophecy that speaks clearly about the death of Jesus by crucifixion.

In Matthew 27 you can read an account of the crucifixion. In verse 46 it says, 'And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'

At the time, the onlookers thought that Jesus was calling out to be saved by Elias (Elijah). But he wasn't. He was quoting the first verse of Psalm 22. Jesus wanted people to look at this Psalm and understand its content. Why? Because in it he describes the experience of being crucified and of the whole setting at his death. The Psalm even says, 'My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.' Yes, DEATH.

Remember, this Psalm was written hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus. Jesus could not have manufactured his own crucifixion by the Romans! Yet he recognises that all the details of this Psalm are played out in his death. Nowhere else do we learn that his bones were out of joint or that his heart was like wax. It's absolutely heart-rending to read!! He had to die this dreadful death to save the likes of YOU and ME.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey,
You seem to be moving away from the question of Jesus' death by crucifixion.

I'd like to share one more astonishing piece of prophecy that speaks clearly about the death of Jesus by crucifixion.

In Matthew 27 you can read an account of the crucifixion. In verse 46 it says, 'And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'

At the time, the onlookers thought that Jesus was calling out to be saved by Elias (Elijah). But he wasn't. He was quoting the first verse of Psalm 22. Jesus wanted people to look at this Psalm and understand its content. Why? Because in it he describes the experience of being crucified and of the whole setting at his death. The Psalm even says, 'My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.' Yes, DEATH.

Remember, this Psalm was written hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus. Jesus could not have manufactured his own crucifixion by the Romans! Yet he recognises that all the details of this Psalm are played out in his death. Nowhere else do we learn that his bones were out of joint or that his heart was like wax. It's absolutely heart-rending to read!! He had to die this dreadful death to save the likes of YOU and ME.

I am not moving away from the topic; we are not yet finished from the First Argument from Bible- Sign of Jonah- Jesus could not die and did not die on the Cross.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

He had to die this dreadful death to save the likes of YOU and ME.

Its not how it works historically.

That is a product of mythology after his death, and what people found important while divorcing Judaism.

I'd like to share one more astonishing piece of prophecy

That is not prophecy

Remember

You will not be able to use reason and education and knowledge on said person, nor credible history if you ever learn it.

 

[Phil25]

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

Act is written by Paul; he usurped religion of Jesus and doctored anonymous writings in absence of Jesus while he was had gone to India. Paul invented new creeds unknown to Jesus.

Act is not a reliable source.

Regards

What makes you think that Quran is a reliable source which was written at least 700 yrs after the death of Christ?

 

[paarsurrey]

What makes you think that Quran is a reliable source which was written at least 700 yrs after the death of Christ?

I don't think there is any relevance of being reliable to be before Jesus or after Jesus or in the time of Jesus.

Does it?

Regards