Jesus did not die on the Cross

[paarsurrey]

No matter what actually happened to Jesus, it was not a secret for 2000 years, here are 3 primary sources that I posted before in #792 (and there are definitely more). It was a belief that was held by certain heterodox Christian sects from at least the 3rd C onwards.
The Apocalypse of Peter mentions it:
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."
And the Second Treatise of the Great Seth:
Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.
And I subjected all their powers. For as I came downward, no one saw me. For I was altering my shapes, changing from form to form. And therefore, when I was at their gates, I assumed their likeness. For I passed them by quietly, and I was viewing the places, and I was not afraid nor ashamed, for I was undefiled. And I was speaking with them, mingling with them through those who are mine, and trampling on those who are harsh to them with zeal, and quenching the flame. And I was doing all these things because of my desire to accomplish what I desired by the will of the Father above.
These were Gnostic texts found in the Nag Hammadi Library and were from <5th C
Also the teachings of Basilides are referred to in Irenaeus' 'Against Heresies' and mention it <3rd C
He appeared, then, on earth as a man, to the nations of these powers, and wrought miracles. Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. For since he was an incorporeal power, and the Nous (mind) of the unborn father, he transfigured himself as he pleased, and thus ascended to him who had sent him, deriding them, inasmuch as he could not be laid hold of, and was invisible to all.

Your view-point noted.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I pulled my stuff from a Muslim website and it indicated that Jesus ascended and will return per their belief. If you don't interpret the Quran the same way them take it up with them but let's not pretend you speak for all Muslims on this topic. I've researched it and what I said is widely believed in Islam.

I speak for Quran and what Quran says in the context of the text. I am not bound by what other denominations have said.
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Neither Quran mentions that Jesus died on the Cross nor Quran mentions that Jesus went or was raised to skies physically or literally, soon after the incident of Crucifixion.

1. This is the truth everybody from Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism (any of their denomination whatever their name) or Christianity/Judaism people or any body else are called upon to prove wrong.

Claims made without supporting evidence can be dismissed without contradicting evidence.

You claim that your sect's founder received a revelation from Allah that Jesus wasn't crucified but it's far, far more likely he was just repeating what he had read in the Quran.

 

[paarsurrey]

With reference to Post #797 above
I give the third verse out of total 30 of Quran as given by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with the gist of explanation made by him that:
Jesus did not die on the Cross but died a natural death
(3) 3rd verse of Quran:
Quote ."The third verse which proves very clearly the death of Prophet Jesus (as) is in this portion of the verse :
“but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them".[5:118]

I have proven before that wherever the word tawaffa has been used in the Holy Qur’an it means to take away the soul and to leave the body lifeless, as Allah, the Exalted, says in the following verses:

“ Say, ‘The angel of death that has been put in charge of you will cause you to die;(yatawaffakum)" [32:12]. And says again:
“but I worship Allah alone Who causes you to die,(yatawaffakum)” [10:105]. And says again: “until death overtake them (hatta yatawaffahunnal mautu)” [4:16].
“till when Our messengers shall visit them to take away their souls, (yatawaffahum)” [7:38]. And says again: “Our messengers take his soul (tawaffathu rusulna)” [6:62].​

Likewise there are indeed twenty-three places in the Holy Quran where the word tawaffa is used clearly meaning death or taking away of the soul.
Sorry to say, though, that some learned, religious leaders (ulama), either through heresy or distortion of the truth, have taken tafwaffaitani
(You caused me to die) to mean rafa‘tani (You took me up bodily) without the slightest thought that not only is this meaning not
found in lexicons but is also contrary to the Holy Quran itself. Thus, such is the heresy that the specific meanings that
the Holy Quran has set for its words from the beginning to the end have been altered without any clue in text .

Further, not only in the Holy Quran but wherever the word tawaffa has been mentioned in the Hadith of the Holy
Prophet (saw) it carries the meaning of death or taking away of the soul. Thus, when I perused the six authentic
Hadith (Sahih Sittah) I did observe that whenever our Holy Prophet (saw) or his companions used this word (tawaffa)
it always was specific to this meanings and I can claim with certainty that nowhere in the authentic Hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw) is
the word used except in the meanings given above.

I have ascertained that this word has been used as a term in Islam that refers to the seizure of the soul in order to prove the
everlasting nature of the soul. It is unfortunate that even though some ulama (religious leaders)
know that the real meaning of tawaffa is to die, they yet present another interpretation to the following verse – “but since Thou didst cause me to die
(tawaffaitani)” – and that this death will take place after the second advent of the Prophet Jesus (as). One wonders that they don't feel any shame
in offering such disgraceful interpretations.

They do think that before this statement of Prophet Jesus (as) – (“but since Thou didst cause me to die”) – the
verse states: “And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’”

It is obvious that qala (he said) is the past tense of the verb and before this there is the particle idh (when) which is specific to past tense . This proves
that the matter pertained to the time of former descent of Jess and it does not pertain to be happening in future . And the response
of Prophet Jesus (as) – “but since Thou didst cause me to die” – is also in the past tense. This is also supported by several other event which
precede this one in the Holy Quran and are described in the same fashion. For example the event, "And when thy Lord said to the angels: ‘I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth'” [2:31].
Should we understand this to mean that Allah, the Exalted, will be asking the angels such a question at some time in future ? Moreover, the Holy
Quran has many a testimony to this affect and Hadiths also confirm that there will be questioning of the souls after death even before the day of Resurrection." Unquote

"Izala Ouham" Volume-2 ("Roohani Khazain" Volume-3 page 424-425) by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad written in 1891.

Regards
Note: The original book "Izala Ouham" is in Urdu, I have intended to convey the contents by translating the same for benefit of the members here, if there is some difference the original book in Urdu must be referred. I am not a professional translator.
#798 #804

 

[Muffled]

Neither Quran mentions that Jesus died on the Cross nor Quran mentions that Jesus went or was raised to skies physically or literally, soon after the incident of Crucifixion.

1. This is the truth everybody from Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism (any of their denomination whatever their name) or Christianity/Judaism people or any body else are called upon to prove wrong.
2. It was a sign for the Judaism people as Jesus promised to show them being a true prophet of G-d.
3. It is a sign for the Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism people as the Christianity people hold the belief that Jesus died on the Cross , he was raised from the dead to be alive and then raised to the skies.
4. Muslims, almost all the denominations, believe that Jesus was neither put on the Cross nor he died on the Cross but he was raised to heaven.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad received Word of Revelation from G-d that Jesus did not die on the Cross but died a natural death.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad presented some thirty (30) verses of Quran that prove his stand truthful.
For two thousand years it remained a secret , if anybody believed it believed it for faith not with clear reasons, it unfolded by the Word of Revelation (that Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism people don't believe one could have) to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Nobody could prove him wrong.
Regards

I believe it is right in the text. It "appeared" that Jesus was crucified and died. The eyewitnesses saw Jesus on the cross and they saw the dead body so they assumed that He died on the cross. The Biblical text reveals what actually happened; He gave up His Spirit ie left the body and then the body died. For Jesus to die He would have had to stay with the body until it died.

 

[Muffled]

With reference to Post #797 above
I give two verses out of total 30 of Quran as given by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with the gist of explanation made by him that:
Jesus did not die on the Cross but died a natural death

(1) 1st verse of Quran:
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection.
(2) 2nd verse of Quran:
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself.​

That is , Messiah son of Mary was not killed, neither did he die on the Cross nor did he suffer a cursed death as Jews and Christians think. Rather, Allah, the Most High, exalted him to Himself with honour and dignity.

One must understand here that rafa‘a means to die an honourable death as is evidenced in another verse of the Holy Quran which says, “[19:58] And We exalted him to a lofty station.” This verse relates to the Prophet Idris and there is no doubt that it means that Allah caused him to die and then elevated him to an honourable position, for if he had ascended to heaven without first experiencing death, then as man cannot escape death, we will be forced to put two interpretations to that verse: either that he will die at some time in future in heaven, or that he will descend to earth once again and then he would die. However, both these possibilites are forbidden for the Holy Quran says clearly that this earthly body of man is to return to earth after death and it becomes dust again, and from dust would man rise again.
As regards Idris’ descent to earth again from heaven, we find no clue for such a belief either in the Holy Quran or in the Hadith. This proves conclusively that here rafa‘a means to die. However, it does not indicate an ordinary death but an honourable one which is for those who had obtained nearness to Allah. Their souls enter illiyyin after death "[54:56] In the seat of truth with an Omnipotent King".
"Izala Ouham" Volume-2 ("Roohani Khazain" Volume-3 page 423-424) by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad written in 1891.​

Regards

I believe the Ali version does not read the same way: 3:55 ¶ Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself It appears that some author took a great many liberties with the translation in order to translate contrary to what the Bible says.

I believe this is six of one and half a dozen of another. God is not divided so it matters not whether it is viewed as Jesus returning to His former Spiritual state as God or God receives Jesus into Himself. The statement of Jesus is:
Lu 23:46 And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost.

I believe this is totally erroneous and does not fit the text of the scriptures.

I believe that is all fantasy.

 

[Muffled]

I pulled my stuff from a Muslim website and it indicated that Jesus ascended and will return per their belief. If you don't interpret the Quran the same way them take it up with them but let's not pretend you speak for all Muslims on this topic. I've researched it and what I said is widely believed in Islam.

I believe I haven't met one who believes that on RF yet.

 

[Serenity Now]

I believe I haven't met one who believes that on RF yet.

Then they are lying to themselves because it's in all the resource information:

They believe the following:

- Jesus was real
- The virgin birth
- He performed many miracles
- He was crucified (don't believe he really died though)
- He ascended into Heaven
- He will come again at the end of days

Not to mention he is named far more in the Quran than Mohammad who didn't perform any miracles. Yet they follow Mohammad? Doesn't make much sense.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

14th Argument – Pilate did not believe that Jesus had died


43 Joseph of Arimathea, a noble counsellor, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, came and went in boldly to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 44 But Pilate wondered that he should be already dead. And sending for the centurion, he asked him if he were already dead.

Mark 15: 43-44
http://biblehub.com/drb/mark/15.htm

When Pilate was informed about the death of Jesus on the cross, he marveled at hearing it. We know that Pilate was the most experienced person in this field; who may have experienced hundreds of crucifixions in his time. That is why; he knew very it well that a 33 years, unmarried young person shouldn’t die in few hours, while the other two thieves (elder than him) were still alive after the crucifixion.

Regards.

 

[Serenity Now]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

14th Argument – Pilate did not believe that Jesus had died


43 Joseph of Arimathea, a noble counsellor, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, came and went in boldly to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 44 But Pilate wondered that he should be already dead. And sending for the centurion, he asked him if he were already dead.

Mark 15: 43-44
http://biblehub.com/drb/mark/15.htm

When Pilate was informed about the death of Jesus on the cross, he marveled at hearing it. We know that Pilate was the most experienced person in this field; who may have experienced hundreds of crucifixions in his time. That is why; he knew very it well that a 33 years, unmarried young person shouldn’t die in few hours, while the other two thieves (elder than him) were still alive after the crucifixion.

Regards.

The Death of Jesus

John 19: 28 - 37
28Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.”With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”c 37and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

Just for reference John was the only apostle at the Crucifixion to witness these events.

Also you need reference all the scripture from Mark:

The Burial of Jesus

Mark 15:42-47
42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. 44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joseph saw where he was laid.

 

[Augustus]

If the Jews did force Pilate to crucify Jesus Christ, he wouldn't have scourged him so brutally knowing his innocent, he would have crucified him with dignity and respect.

I can't miss this opportunity to re-up my favourite ever argument made by anyone on any subject ever.

It is the greatest verb/noun combination in the history of the English language.

 

[kalyan]

I was of the opinion that yesus DID NOT Exist and was created from Mithraism

 

[kalyan]

Did you read that on the back of a salty snack box?

not sure./.....but Mithra is a sun god, xstianity celebrated on 25th is a pagan festival, so there is nothing I see in the current world that points me to an existence of a character called yesus.......It might be a just a creation to milk money in the name of newly found religion

 

[El Conquistador]

If Jesus had been crucified a century ago, christians would be wearing tiny little electric chairs on their necklaces.

 

[Augustus]

If Jesus had been crucified a century ago, christians would be wearing tiny little electric chairs on their necklaces.

Not if he had been crucified...

 

[El Conquistador]

Not if he had been crucified...

Oh, whatever. Way to ruin a good joke. I'll bet milk curdles when you walk into a room.

 

[Augustus]

Way to ruin a good joke

To be fair, you sort of did that yourself though

To cheer you up, here's one of your new look Christians

 

[Yadoula]

I reckon jesus could have been in a deep state of meditation when he was jabbed by that spear. I doubt that he had died as fast as they said that he had, but who knows... If he was in a deep state of meditation it would explain the missing body...

 

[paarsurrey]

I reckon jesus could have been in a deep state of meditation when he was jabbed by that spear. I doubt that he had died as fast as they said that he had, but who knows... If he was in a deep state of meditation it would explain the missing body...

Is it from science or religion? Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

If Jesus had been crucified a century ago, christians would be wearing tiny little electric chairs on their necklaces.

I don't think if one can love a weapon that had killed one's loved-one. Right?
Will one love the sword with which one's father or son had been killed? Paul gave a weird ideology. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Regards