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Jesus did not die on the Cross

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Quran mentions the word "Torah" or the book of the "people of the book". Should I quote verses of the Quran where the word Torah is mentioned? Please
Regards
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Quran quotes Taurat, Zaboor and Injeel. Not Bible. Bible has either 75, 73 or 66 books. Some have more.
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
="paarsurrey, post: 4724936, member: 37462"]
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Do you deny secular history?

The most famous Jewish Historian, Flavius Josephus, who was not a believer, wrote the history of the Roman Empire. He also wrote about Jesus Christ, including His widely testified life after death in the "Antiquities of the Jews."

Have you read it? Was Josephus a liar? What about the others?

There are other historians who were not believers who wrote about the crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus.

There is nothing in the Quran to substantiate its claim that Jesus didn't die on the cross. Saying He didn't doesn't make it so.
 
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firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
katiemygirl said:
Do you deny secular history?

The most famous Jewish Historian, Flavius Josephus, who was not a believer, wrote the history of the Roman Empire. He also wrote about Jesus Christ, including His widely testified life after death in the "Antiquities of the Jews."

Have you read it? Was Josephus a liar? What about the others?

There are other historians who were not believers who wrote about the crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus.

There is nothing in the Quran to substantiate its claim that Jesus didn't die on the cross. Saying He didn't doesn't make it so.
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Im curious to know what Josephus wrote about Jesus' life after death, and where in the antiquities.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
katiemygirl said:
Do you deny secular history?
The most famous Jewish Historian, Flavius Josephus, who was not a believer, wrote the history of the Roman Empire. He also wrote about Jesus Christ, including His widely testified life after death in the "Antiquities of the Jews."
Have you read it? Was Josephus a liar? What about the others?
There are other historians who were not believers who wrote about the crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus.
There is nothing in the Quran to substantiate its claim that Jesus didn't die on the cross. Saying He didn't doesn't make it so.
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Historians just give their opinion, they don't create any facts and never claim to be 100% correct.
Regards
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
firedragon said:
Im curious to know what Josephus wrote about Jesus' life after death, and where in the antiquities.
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Josephus wrote of Jesus' death on the cross, and His resurrection, something Muslims vehemently deny. Josephus was not a believer, yet he wrote of these things.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
katiemygirl said:
Josephus wrote of Jesus' death on the cross, and His resurrection, something Muslims vehemently deny. Josephus was not a believer, yet he wrote of these things.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
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Now what are the surrounding stories. Before this part and after?
 
RabbiO

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
katiemygirl said:
Josephus wrote of Jesus' death on the cross, and His resurrection, something Muslims vehemently deny. Josephus was not a believer, yet he wrote of these things.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.
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There are virtually no scholars - Christian, Jewish, secular or otherwise - who believe that the passage, as you have quoted it, is as Josephus wrote it. The consensus is that the passage has been doctored.
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
RabbiO said:
There are virtually no scholars - Christian, Jewish, secular or otherwise - who believe that the passage, as you have quoted it, is as Josephus wrote it. The consensus is that the passage has been doctored.
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I guess if you're a Muslim or Jew, you would think that.

There are other secular historians who have written about Jesus' death and resurrection. Try doing some unbiased research. I have read the arguments which claim Josephus' work was doctored. They don't hold up according to the majority of scholars who have examined these writings.
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
katiemygirl said:
There are other secular historians who have written about Jesus' death and resurrection. Try doing some unbiased research. I have read the arguments which claim Josephus' work was doctored. They don't hold up according to the majority of scholars who have examined these writings.
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The majority of scholars believe that Josephus wrote about Jesus, but that the resurrection part is a later interpolation.

There is plenty of evidence for Jesus' existence as a man, and also that he was crucified. No non-Christian supports the resurrection part though. If someone believed in the resurrection, I'm pretty sure they would convert on the spot.
 
paarsurrey

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Augustus said:
The majority of scholars believe that Josephus wrote about Jesus, but that the resurrection part is a later interpolation.
There is plenty of evidence for Jesus' existence as a man, and also that he was crucified. No non-Christian supports the resurrection part though. If someone believed in the resurrection, I'm pretty sure they would convert on the spot.
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I agree with you.
Regards
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
paarsurrey said:
We don't believe in Muhammad just because of Josephus or any other historian.
Regards
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You have no concrete proof that Jesus did not die on the cross. You refuse to examine evidence outside of your own religion.

There are other secular historians besides Josephus who attest to Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection besides Josephus.

Under Herod, during the reign of Tiberius, Tacitus wrote that Pontius Pilate condemned Christ to death.

The Talmud says Christ was crucified on the eve of the Passover.

Thallus wrote that Jesus' crucifixion was accompanied by darkness.

Tacitus, Pliny, Lucian and Josephus all wrote that christians were willingly tortured and executed for their refusal to deny their belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 
K

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Augustus said:
The majority of scholars believe that Josephus wrote about Jesus, but that the resurrection part is a later interpolation.

There is plenty of evidence for Jesus' existence as a man, and also that he was crucified. No non-Christian supports the resurrection part though. If someone believed in the resurrection, I'm pretty sure they would convert on the spot.
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They may not have believed in the resurrection, but they certainly wrote about it.

Muslims deny Jesus' death on the cross.
 
Augustus

Augustus

…
katiemygirl said:
They may not have believed in the resurrection, but they certainly wrote about it.
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Someone wrote about it, the scholarly consensus is that it wasn't Josephus.

katiemygirl said:
Muslims deny Jesus' death on the cross.
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They say someone was crucified who looked like Jesus, but it was all an illusion.

Certain Christian groups also said the same thing. If you go back a few pages, I posted the quotes from the manuscripts.

I think Jesus was a man who was crucified, but beyond this we can't tell very much.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
katiemygirl said:
I would suggest you do your own research. It is easily found on the internet.
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You asked Parsurrey if he had read it, but you have only read that part right? Because it is found on the internet.

The reason I asked about the surrounding verses is because if you see, this part is does not fit there. Its like a fruit salad in between a savoury meal.
 
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