Jesus did not die on the Cross

[katiemygirl]

You asked Parsurrey if he had read it, but you have only read that part right? Because it is found on the internet.

The reason I asked about the surrounding verses is because if you see, this part is does not fit there. Its like a fruit salad in between a savoury meal.

I have read a large portion of Josephus, focusing on the time when Jesus lived and died. I borrowed the book from a friend and just recently returned it, so I can't go back and look it up. I don't remember the surrounding verses, but according to what you wrote above, you do. So how about posting them so you can show me what it is you object to.

Also, you are ignoring the other historians who wrote about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Josephus was not alone.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Augustus, post: 4725722, member: 56037"]Someone wrote about it, the scholarly consensus is that it wasn't Josephus.

I agree that some scholars object to certain parts of what Josephus wrote, but from what I can tell, none objected to the part about the crucifixion. The Original Poster of this thread claims Jesus did not die on the cross.

They say someone was crucified who looked like Jesus, but it was all an illusion.

Where's the evidence?

Certain Christian groups also said the same thing. If you go back a few pages, I posted the quotes from the manuscripts.

I saw the post about the Apocalypse of Peter and the Treatise of Seth.

To be a christian, one must be a follower of Jesus and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel, in a nutshell, is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:1-4). If someone says Jesus wasn't crucified or raised, he/she is no christian

I think Jesus was a man who was crucified, but beyond this we can't tell very much.

Then you haven't looked into it as deeply as you think you have. I noted various historians a few posts back. Have you read any of their writings?

 

[Augustus]

Where's the evidence?

Same as there is for the resurrection, some people said it happened. Ultimately, it can neither be proved nor disproved.

Balance of probabilities says he was crucified and stayed dead.

Then you haven't looked. I noted various historians a few posts back. Have you read any of their writings?

In terms of what can be said with reasonable confidence from the perspective of critical historical enquiry (not theology), he lived, he taught, he was crucified, had a brother, was baptised by John, and maybe a few other things.

Going beyond this becomes mostly theology.

As regards the crucifixion, there is a reasonable chance that (Senator) Tacitus would have confirmed this from the official records.

 

[katiemygirl]

Same as there is for the resurrection, some people said it happened. Ultimately, it can neither be proved nor disproved.

Balance of probabilities says he was crucified and stayed dead.



In terms of what can be said with reasonable confidence from the perspective of critical historical enquiry (not theology), he lived, he taught, he was crucified, had a brother, was baptised by John, and maybe a few other things.

Going beyond this becomes mostly theology.

As regards the crucifixion, there is a reasonable chance that (Senator) Tacitus would have confirmed this from the official records.

Would you mind telling what religion you are affiliated with? I ask with all due respect.

 

[Augustus]

Would you mind telling what religion you are affiliated with? I ask with all due respect.

No problem, I'm not religious.

 

[Muffled]

Mary wrote nothing not she dictate anything . It is all hollow conjecture, any yet carving out of it the Christian-God is meaningless. John never claimed that he was there, Matthew, Mark did not mention it.
Regards

I believe it is deductive reasoning. Luke reports the words Mary said but he was not there so it had to be Mary telling him what she said.

I believe there is no such thing as a separate Christian God and that there is only one God. If there is any carving out it is done by Muslims who don't know God personally.

I believe he wrote it in his book. That sounds like a claim to me.

 

[Muffled]

The Quran says the bible is more reliable? Show me.

I believe you should read what I said again. So tell me: What does the Qu'ran say the Gospel is? If it doesn't say then it is not as reliable as the Bible that does say.

 

[Muffled]

Quran doesnt even mention the bible.

I believe the Qu'ran simply refers to it as "The Book."

 

[katiemygirl]

I believe it is deductive reasoning. Luke reports the words Mary said but he was not there so it had to be Mary telling him what she said.

I believe there is no such thing as a separate Christian God and that there is only one God. If there is any carving out it is done by Muslims who don't know God personally.

I believe he wrote it in his book. That sounds like a claim to me.

You are 100% correct!

Mary's words of praise are recorded in Luke 1:46-55.

Right again! There is only ONE true God!

 

[katiemygirl]

No problem, I'm not religious.

Thank you for sharing. I'm curious why you are here. You must have some sort of belief, even if it's believing in nothing. Are you atheist? Agnostic?

 

[katiemygirl]

Quran quotes Taurat, Zaboor and Injeel. Not Bible. Bible has either 75, 73 or 66 books. Some have more.

The Quran does talk about The Book, which is the Bible.

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Quran since the Quran says that the Word of God cannot be altered.

When Muhammed (570-632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Quran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Quran states that God's word cannot be corrupted.

So the question becomes when and where was the Bible corrupted since the Quran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?

 

[firedragon]

The Quran does talk about The Book, which is the Bible.

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Quran since the Quran says that the Word of God cannot be altered.

When Muhammed (570-632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Quran from Allah. This means that at that time the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Quran states that God's word cannot be corrupted.

So the question becomes when and where was the Bible corrupted since the Quran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?

Quran speaks of taurat, zaboor, injeel. Yes, Moses, David and Jesus. But no book in the bible claim these names. We don't know.

The five first books have been named Torah. But we don't know who wrote them. There has been at least four authors.

Thus when you say the Quran speaks of the bible, it's a very vague statement. Hope you understand.

Also when you say bible which one is it? Genesis to revelations? Clement? Barnabus? Which one?

This is in very short so excuse me. But the Quran does not refer to the bible.

 

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl The Qur'an speaks of the Bible, however does not claim that it is was given by God. The Bible is tampered with throughout time which lead to the New testament. The Old testament believers are Muslims and follow Islam. The Old testament was a early revelation that follows Islam however through time the New testament is made when tampered with and corrupted. Exactly! The Bible at the time when Quran stated that was not the new testament, this Old Testament was revealed not by God but of man. Jesus was not crucified as in

• Isaiah 53:10 and Psalm 91:16 declare that Jesus' life will be EXTENDED! [1] [2]

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl The Qur'an speaks of the Bible, however does not claim that it is was given by God. The Bible is tampered with throughout time which lead to the New testament. The Old testament believers are Muslims and follow Islam. The Old testament was a early revelation that follows Islam however through time the New testament is made when tampered with and corrupted. Exactly! The Bible at the time when Quran stated that was not the new testament, this Old Testament was revealed not by God but of man. Jesus was not crucified as in

• Isaiah 53:10 and Psalm 91:16 declare that Jesus' life will be EXTENDED! [1] [2]

The Quran says those books were given by Allah, and Muslims claim Allah is God, do they not?

YAWEH is the GOD of the Bible. The name “YAWEH” comes from the time that God appeared to Moses in the burning bush. At that time God told Moses to call Him “I am that I am,” which in Hebrew is, “YAWEH.”

YAWEH spoke to Moses many centuries before the birth of Christ. Muhammad didn't receive his so-called revelation until six-hundred years after the birth of the Messiah.

YAWEH said He is the one true GOD.

The Bible was not tampered with. There are too many extant manuscripts from various parts of the world, which testify to this fact. The Dead Sea Scrolls attest to the fact that the Old Testament has not been tampered with.

I agree that some so-called translations of the Bible, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation, are corrupt, sectarian paraphrases. But the extant manuscripts have not been changed. That is the argument Muslims make, but they cannot prove it.

There are those, who call themselves christians, that claim to have received a revelation from God in recent history. One is Joseph Smith. He said Jesus appeared to Him. He is the head of the Mormon Church. Another is Charles Taze Russell. He is head of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He says Jesus came in 1914. These are false teachers, and sadly they have many followers.

I think Muhammad is just another copycat, just like the men I mentioned above, and the the Quran is the same thing.

 

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl Show me a verse where Allah said he has given the Bible to humanity. Do not make false claims. The Qur'an was the last revelation because the Bible was corrupted. So, you are saying Allah made a corrupted scripture? Do not make false claims. You think because the Bible was created first that Qur'an copied it but you are wrong and brainwashed. The Qur'an is the word of God. The Quran is once again the last revelation. Quran says in Surah Al-Hijr We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We ll assuredly guard it (from corruption). The other translations imply the same thing. The present Bible contains a mixture in some places it contains the word of God that is remanence of injeel which is why they are similar, it contains the word of also prophets, historians. Unfortunately, it even contains pornography. Mainly human beings are the words of the Bible. Basically, the Qur'an says the Bible is the injeel which was the words of prophet Jesus peace be upon him. So we cannot attribute the complete Bible by the word of God. The part that matches the Quran is the word of God however to say that Bible has been copied from Quran is the same way as saying Jesus peace be upon him copied from the Old testament and the Christians will say no as you are right now. What we believe is the basic message of all the revelations are of all the revelations is the same about tawheed which is believing in one God. There are 100s of scientific errors in the Bible, now if you say that Quran has copied then people are assuming that Prophet Muhammad copied from the Bible which is not true. If you say that Muhammad is a copycat then he corrected all the scientific errors which means that he was knew those discoveries that have been proven in modern times. The Bible says the light of its moon is its own light. The Quran says the light of the moon is reflected light. Specifically, the Bible says moon is its own light in the Book of Genesis Ch. 1 V.16-19. Specifically, the Qur'an says the moon is reflected light in Ch.25 V.61. So, you say he is a copycat? Huh? Come on. Stop with the false claims. The Quran is the Furqan, it is the criteria to judge the right from wrong.

 

[Walter Russell]

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran from the start, (first set of ten verses) to see threadbare as our friends here in another thread, and also in this thread have suggested:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s has been given, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”? And that is the title of this thread.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[3:2] Alif Lam Mim.
[3:3] Allah is He beside Whom there is no God, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining.
[3:4] He has sent down to thee the Book containing the truth and fulfilling that which precedes it; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel
[3:5] Before this, as a guidance to the people; and He has sent down the Discrimination. Surely, those who deny the Signs of Allah shall have a severe punishment. And Allah is Mighty, Possessor of the power to requite.
[3:6] Surely, nothing in the earth or in the heaven is hidden from Allah.
[3:7] He it is Who fashions you in the wombs as He wills; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.
[3:8] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. —
[3:9] ‘Our Lord, let not our hearts become perverse after Thou hast guided us; and bestow on us mercy from Thyself; surely, Thou alone art the Bestower.
[3:10] ‘Our Lord, Thou wilt certainly assemble mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt; surely, Allah breaks not His promise.’

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Regards

[3:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[3:2] Alif Lam Mim.
[3:3] Allah is He beside Whom there is no God, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining.

I was with you 3:1-3, after that, the writer places a burden on man in the form of laws "including the entire book" and written by man, who is fallible and corruptible. No intelligent god would leave it man, to educate man about god. If "God" wishes you to know something about him, he'd tell you him/herself.

 

[Jabar]

Look at these interesting miracles:
The numerical miracle in the Qur’an involves numerous numbers, of which 7 is the primary one. But why 7? It seems that this number shares a strong relationship with the way our universe was created and structured. The Earth has seven layers: the crust, lithosphere, upper mantle, astenoshpere, lower mantle, outer core and inner core. The atmosphere has 7 layers: the Troposphere, Stratosphere, Ozonosphere, Mesosphere, Thermosphere, Ionosphere and the Exosphere. Atoms, the basic building blocks of matter, have a seven-layered structure. The universe has 7 skies, and the one we see decorated with stars at night is only one of those 7.

God Almighty perhaps wanted to include this fascinating number not only in his creations, but in his Holy book. Now, I will attempt to explain some miracles of the number 7 in the Qur’an:

• The number of verses in the Qur’an that referred to the seven skies is actually 7!

• The word “the Hereafter” is mentioned 70 times in the Quran, a multiple of 7!

• Hell-Fire has seven doors to it, and the number of times the word “Hell-Fire” (‘Jahannam’ in Arabic) is repeated in the Qur’an is 77, a multiple of 7!

• The first time God Almighty (Allah) mentions the number 7 in the Qur’an was in Chapter 2, Verse 29 when he says: “It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; then He turned to heaven and made them into seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge. (29)”. The last time Allah mentions the number 7 is in Chapter 78, Verse 12 when he states: “And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments, (12)”. Now observe this:

o The number of chapters between the first chapter that mentions this number and the last chapter that mentions it is 77, a multiple of 7!

o Not only that, but amazingly, the number of verses between the first verse that mentions 7 and the last verse that mentions 7 is 5649, also a multiple of 7.

o And even more amazingly, the number of verses that come from the beginning of Chapter 2 until the verse where 7 is first mentioned is the exact same number of verses as from the verse where 7 is last mentioned until the end of Chapter 78: 28 verses, which is also a multiple of 7!

o Furthermore, from the very beginning of Chapter 2, the chapter which first mentions number 7, to the very end of Chapter 78, the chapter which last mentions it, there are exactly 5705 verses, a multiple of 7! Check it yourself!

o The number of verses that come before the first verse where 7 is mentioned is 35, which is a multiple of 7, and the number of verses that come before the verse where 7 is last mentioned is 5684, a multiple of 7!

This is only a small ounce of the many examples of the wonders of number 7 in the Qur’an, let alone other prime numbers such as 13 and 19 and others. But the question remains to all those who question the Qur’an’s authenticity: could have all this happened by coincidence? Can this infallible accuracy have been sheer luck, or is there a precise system of mathematics that no one could have ever dreamed of concocting, proving through the language of numbers that this book is completely and utterly the word of God? The fact that this is only one small ounce of the many things that prove evidential means the Qur'an cannot be copied. There are much much more things that are very evidential like this. There is no way Quran could have copied Bible. Quran is divine book, and is the last revelation for human beings to show the right from the wrong.

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl Show me a verse where Allah said he has given the Bible to humanity. Do not make false claims. The Qur'an was the last revelation because the Bible was corrupted. So, you are saying Allah made a corrupted scripture? Do not make false claims. You think because the Bible was created first that Qur'an copied it but you are wrong and brainwashed. The Qur'an is the word of God. The Quran is once again the last revelation. Quran says in Surah Al-Hijr We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We ll assuredly guard it (from corruption). The other translations imply the same thing. The present Bible contains a mixture in some places it contains the word of God that is remanence of injeel which is why they are similar, it contains the word of also prophets, historians. Unfortunately, it even contains pornography. Mainly human beings are the words of the Bible. Basically, the Qur'an says the Bible is the injeel which was the words of prophet Jesus peace be upon him. So we cannot attribute the complete Bible by the word of God. The part that matches the Quran is the word of God however to say that Bible has been copied from Quran is the same way as saying Jesus peace be upon him copied from the Old testament and the Christians will say no as you are right now. What we believe is the basic message of all the revelations are of all the revelations is the same about tawheed which is believing in one God. There are 100s of scientific errors in the Bible, now if you say that Quran has copied then people are assuming that Prophet Muhammad copied from the Bible which is not true. If you say that Muhammad is a copycat then he corrected all the scientific errors which means that he was knew those discoveries that have been proven in modern times. The Bible says the light of its moon is its own light. The Quran says the light of the moon is reflected light. Specifically, the Bible says moon is its own light in the Book of Genesis Ch. 1 V.16-19. Specifically, the Qur'an says the moon is reflected light in Ch.25 V.61. So, you say he is a copycat? Huh? Come on. Stop with the false claims. The Quran is the Furqan, it is the criteria to judge the right from wrong.

If the Quran is from God, then it must be 100% accurate. It cannot contain errors. Would you agree?

Do you believe the Quran is 100% accurate and contains no errors?

 

[Walter Russell]

Look at these interesting miracles:
The numerical miracle in the Qur’an involves numerous numbers, of which 7 is the primary one. But why 7? It seems that this number shares a strong relationship with the way our universe was created and structured. The Earth has seven layers: the crust, lithosphere, upper mantle, astenoshpere, lower mantle, outer core and inner core. The atmosphere has 7 layers: the Troposphere, Stratosphere, Ozonosphere, Mesosphere, Thermosphere, Ionosphere and the Exosphere. Atoms, the basic building blocks of matter, have a seven-layered structure. The universe has 7 skies, and the one we see decorated with stars at night is only one of those 7.

God Almighty perhaps wanted to include this fascinating number not only in his creations, but in his Holy book. Now, I will attempt to explain some miracles of the number 7 in the Qur’an:

• The number of verses in the Qur’an that referred to the seven skies is actually 7!

• The word “the Hereafter” is mentioned 70 times in the Quran, a multiple of 7!

• Hell-Fire has seven doors to it, and the number of times the word “Hell-Fire” (‘Jahannam’ in Arabic) is repeated in the Qur’an is 77, a multiple of 7!

• The first time God Almighty (Allah) mentions the number 7 in the Qur’an was in Chapter 2, Verse 29 when he says: “It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; then He turned to heaven and made them into seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge. (29)”. The last time Allah mentions the number 7 is in Chapter 78, Verse 12 when he states: “And (have We not) built over you the seven firmaments, (12)”. Now observe this:

o The number of chapters between the first chapter that mentions this number and the last chapter that mentions it is 77, a multiple of 7!

o Not only that, but amazingly, the number of verses between the first verse that mentions 7 and the last verse that mentions 7 is 5649, also a multiple of 7.

o And even more amazingly, the number of verses that come from the beginning of Chapter 2 until the verse where 7 is first mentioned is the exact same number of verses as from the verse where 7 is last mentioned until the end of Chapter 78: 28 verses, which is also a multiple of 7!

o Furthermore, from the very beginning of Chapter 2, the chapter which first mentions number 7, to the very end of Chapter 78, the chapter which last mentions it, there are exactly 5705 verses, a multiple of 7! Check it yourself!

o The number of verses that come before the first verse where 7 is mentioned is 35, which is a multiple of 7, and the number of verses that come before the verse where 7 is last mentioned is 5684, a multiple of 7!

This is only a small ounce of the many examples of the wonders of number 7 in the Qur’an, let alone other prime numbers such as 13 and 19 and others. But the question remains to all those who question the Qur’an’s authenticity: could have all this happened by coincidence? Can this infallible accuracy have been sheer luck, or is there a precise system of mathematics that no one could have ever dreamed of concocting, proving through the language of numbers that this book is completely and utterly the word of God? The fact that this is only one small ounce of the many things that prove evidential means the Qur'an cannot be copied. There are much much more things that are very evidential like this. There is no way Quran could have copied Bible. Quran is divine book, and is the last revelation for human beings to show the right from the wrong.

7 is aswell represented in the Bible as it is in the Quran. Sacred numbers are represented in many religions
I don't see where this is evidence of being superior to other religious systems.
The universe is a mathematical equation and Islam isn't the only religion thats aware of that.

 

[Jabar]

@Walter Russell No, it is not give me evidence and if even so to a certain extent.