Jesus did not die on the Cross

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl I respect you a lot, however your intellect is very limited. Please refer to my last comment.

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl Go on this site and see what it actually means and you figure it out yourself. If you read into it carefully you will see it does not say that and the version i posted was correct. If you object, then i will have to say you are merely being arrogant. http://quran.com/5/116

I am not objecting to the version you used. I am asking you this. Is the version I used false? Yes or no? If yes, then what makes it false?

Here are the two versions again. Please explain the differences and how the one is wrong and the other is right.

Your version

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

The version I posted

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden?" Sura 5:116

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl I respect you a lot, however your intellect is very limited. Please refer to my last comment.

Your comment is disrespectful. I ask you to please refrain from personal insults. Thank you.

 

[Jabar]

@katiemygirl Are you not comprehending to what i said, refer to this site:http://quran.com/5/116. The version you used is correct. However, using the translation you use causes more confusion. However, yes they are both correct. Allah asked Jesus did you say to mankind that there are two dieties beside Allah, Jesus replied saying he did not say something he had no right to.

 

[katiemygirl]

@katiemygirl Are you not comprehending to what i said, refer to this site:http://quran.com/5/116. The version you used is correct. However, using the translation you use causes more confusion. However, yes they are both correct. Allah asked Jesus did you say to mankind that there are two dieties beside Allah, Jesus replied saying he did not say something he had no right to.

Yes, I comprehended what you said, but I do not read websites people post. I am on this forum because I want to DEBATE. If I wanted to read websites, I wouldn't bother being on a debate forum. Thank you for posting the link, but I am not interested. I would much rather have a written conversation with a person.

Okay, I'm glad to know that the version I posted is correct. I have no problem using the version you prefer. I don't want to cause confusion. Now back to my question. I am trying to understand your position. Please be patient. I have questions about this passage, and I would like you to answer them please.

Here again is your version.

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

Is Allah a deity to be worshiped?

 

[firedragon]

Please provide proof that prior to the Quran being written, christians worshiped Mary as part of the trinity.

I would also ask you to provide Sura 5:116 from the version of the Quran you think is the correct one. Tell me which version you are using.

The word trinity is not used. However, Jabar's version says,

"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?"

Three deities are mentioned in this passage. How is it Allah could say Mary was deity? If Allah is all knowing, he would have known that to be untrue.

No christian, prior to the writing of the Quran, ever considered Mary to be deity. Christians believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are deities to be worshiped.

Do you know the other deities mentioned in that case? Children, wealth, even your own ego or desire.

It's bordering a weird polytheism in that case.

 

[firedragon]

The word trinity is not used. However, Jabar's version says,

"O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?"

Three deities are mentioned in this passage. How is it Allah could say Mary was deity? If Allah is all knowing, he would have known that to be untrue.

No christian, prior to the writing of the Quran, ever considered Mary to be deity. Christians believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are deities to be worshiped.

No one considered Mary as deity?

Millions of people think Mary as a saint.

She was deemed theotokos.

A deity may not be how you may think it is. Deity does not have to be God in Islam. Even your ego can be deity.

Have you heard of Hababites? They go to the extreme. Of course deemed heretic by the Roman church. Well, even Martin Luther was called a heretic.

Ilah does not mean Allah. But making anyone or thing or feeling as ilah is shirk or polytheism in the Quran.

Hope you understand.

Edit. Sorry it's Halabites. The phone is like an angry grandma sometimes.

Cheers.

 

[katiemygirl]

="firedragon, post: 4727711, member: 45358"]No one considered Mary as deity?
Millions of people think Mary as a saint. She was deemed theotokos.

1. All christians are saints. This is what the Bible teaches, whether you agree with it or not.
2. Yes, Roman Catholics worship Mary NOW; that is a recent phenomenon in christian history, but that was not my question. See below.
3. There is only ONE God. It is a sin to worship anyone or anything besides GOD, therefore, it is a sin to worship Mary.


I asked what christians ever worshiped or believed Mary was deity BEFORE the Quran was written? Please answer, and cite sources.

A deity may not be how you may think it is. Deity does not have to be God in Islam. Even your ego can be deity.

Please provide the source which defines "deity" in the Quran.

Jews and Christians alike have Bible dictionaries, concordances and lexicons we can go to in order to learn the meaning of a word, and where and how many times it appears in the Bible. By going to these sources, we can determine the true meaning of the word in question. Do you have such things for the Quran? If so, please provide for me their definition of "deity" and where it is used in the Quran.

Have you heard of Hababites? They go to the extreme. Of course deemed heretic by the Roman church. Well, even Martin Luther was called a heretic.

No, I have not heard of Halabites. I've heard of halibut. They are a fish with a very mild flavor.
Martin Luther was not 100% correct in his teaching, but I am very happy that he challenged the Roman Catholic Church, who I believe is a false religion. Naturally, they would refer to Luther as a heretic.

Ilah does not mean Allah. But making anyone or thing or feeling as ilah is shirk or polytheism in the Quran.

Please cite the source of your definition.

Hope you understand.

Unless you cite credible sources for what you claim, it means nothing.

 

[paarsurrey]

You have no concrete proof that Jesus did not die on the cross. You refuse to examine evidence outside of your own religion.
There are other secular historians besides Josephus who attest to Jesus' death on the cross and His resurrection besides Josephus.
Under Herod, during the reign of Tiberius, Tacitus wrote that Pontius Pilate condemned Christ to death.
The Talmud says Christ was crucified on the eve of the Passover.
Thallus wrote that Jesus' crucifixion was accompanied by darkness.
Tacitus, Pliny, Lucian and Josephus all wrote that christians were willingly tortured and executed for their refusal to deny their belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It is just wrong. I have provided more clues from the Gospels than from Quran so far to prove that Jesus did not die on the Cross.
Please read post #828 , #844 in this thread:
Regards

 

[firedragon]

1. All christians are saints. This is what the Bible teaches, whether you agree with it or not.
2. Yes, Roman Catholics worship Mary NOW; that is a recent phenomenon in christian history, but that was not my question. See below.
3. There is only ONE God. It is a sin to worship anyone or anything besides GOD, therefore, it is a sin to worship Mary.


I asked what christians ever worshiped or believed Mary was deity BEFORE the Quran was written? Please answer, and cite sources.

Okay I understand your question better now.

If the Quran was meant to discuss only matters that happened before it, then we wouldnt be believe in it to guide us now. Do you understand katiemygirl? Thus, the question is not valid.

Please provide the source which defines "deity" in the Quran.

Jews and Christians alike have Bible dictionaries, concordances and lexicons we can go to in order to learn the meaning of a word, and where and how many times it appears in the Bible. By going to these sources, we can determine the true meaning of the word in question. Do you have such things for the Quran? If so, please provide for me their definition of "deity" and where it is used in the Quran.

La ilaha illallah - No deity but the God. (La-No, Ilah-Deity, illa - other than or besides, Al-the, ilah - deity)

Edward Lanes Lexicon Book 1 page 83, 82.

Quran - Chapter and verse

2:163, 255. 3:2, 6, 18. 6:102,106

Katie. We can read and understand. We dont really need Lexicons. Also, when you learn classical Arabic and Quran, you will understand that the Quranic personality is different from any lexicon. Nevertheless, your question is valid.

When I need to understand the bible, yes I do refer to dictionaries.

Try and understand the idea of Deity. Ilah. It could be your own ego. It could be your child. It could be your wealth. If you place anything as divine, thats deity or divine.

No, I have not heard of Halabites. I've heard of halibut. They are a fish with a very mild flavor.
Martin Luther was not 100% correct in his teaching, but I am very happy that he challenged the Roman Catholic Church, who I believe is a false religion. Naturally, they would refer to Luther as a heretic.

Lol. Halibut? Never heard that name. But I like sushi, not so much sashimi.

Cheers.

 

[katiemygirl]

="firedragon, post: 4727890, member: 45358"]Okay I understand your question better now.
If the Quran was meant to discuss only matters that happened before it, then we wouldnt be believe in it to guide us now. Do you understand katiemygirl? Thus, the question is not valid.

That is a cop out! My question is very valid, and your avoidance of it has proven me to be correct. I would add this. Jesus would NEVER have tolerated His Mother being called deity, yet the Quran says He exalted Allah for saying such a thing. If Allah knew all things, he wouldn't have needed to ask Jesus if he said, "Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah.". He would have already known what Jesus said and did not say. Jesus never considered his mother to be any kind of god.

Katiemygirl =1
firedragon = 0

La ilaha illallah - No deity but the God. (La-No, Ilah-Deity, illa - other than or besides, Al-the, ilah - deity)

Edward Lanes Lexicon Book 1 page 83, 82.

Quran - Chapter and verse

2:163, 255. 3:2, 6, 18. 6:102,106

Thank you. I will look up Edward Lanes Lexicon, and the verses later.

Katie. We can read and understand. We dont really need Lexicons. Also, when you learn classical Arabic and Quran, you will understand that the Quranic personality is different from any lexicon. Nevertheless, your question is valid.

If Lexicons were not needed, there wouldn't be any.

When I need to understand the bible, yes I do refer to dictionaries.

I generally use a concordance. I let the Bible itself define words for me. I do word studies. If I want to learn about a word, I first search it out wherever it is used in the Bible. For example, I recently did a study of the word "kingdom." I learn much studying this way. Rather than let the dictionary define the word, I let the Bible define it.

Try and understand the idea of Deity. Ilah. It could be your own ego. It could be your child. It could be your wealth. If you place anything as divine, thats deity or divine.

Yes, I understand your use of it, but you must also understand that Jesus would NEVER consider his mother deity, not in a million years.

Here is a verse that uses the word "deity" in the Bible when it speaks of Jesus.

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,..." (Colossians 2:9)

Lol. Halibut? Never heard that name. But I like sushi, not so much sashimi.

It's good to know you have a sense of humor! Sushi? YUK! I'm not familiar with sashimi.

Cheers

To you as well. Ready for Argument #2? Or would you like to admit defeat right now?

 

[firedragon]

I dont know how the question of Jesus' crucifixion can turn into mistakes in the Quran. But I have come to realise that any discussion can turned around to the opponent and any weakness we can think of, even fleetingly. Same case with all I think.

Nevertheless, the deity in the Quran can be your ego or desire.

(Afaraaitha maniththahaza ilahahoo hawahoo) Have you seen him who takes his desire as his god..... 45:23

Do you see the Quran telling you not to take your own desire as god? That does not mean as The God. It means divine.

Also, I dont think that there is any point in quoting to the quran when it comes to a topic discussed like the crucifixion to prove that Jesus was not killed on the cross. Though Quran clearly states that Jesus was not killed, it does not carry weight to the Christian.

As a Muslim, that is my position. I should not quote the Quran for a topic that should be discussed taking the bible accounts.

But then again now I have come to understand that there is no point sticking to ideals like that, because topics like crucifixion can turn into errors.

So, I have a question to the Christian brethren of mine (Now don't go crazy and declare death sentence upon me for declaring you as brethren).

It is a valid argument to make when you ask a Muslim why he would quote the Quran since it was written centuries after Jesus. Now you must understand that Muslims believe Muhammed was a prophet who God sent his revelation to. Thus, if he was indeed a true prophet, it is a valid claim to quote the Quran right?

Now Christians believe in the saint saul. His work is the majority of the New Testament and was key in the Christian theology. Saul never met Jesus, he claimed Jesus revealed directly to him. Thus, Saul got his revelation directly from Jesus though he never met him.

When it comes to direct revelation time does not matter. Hope that's understandable.

If that's the case, why would you believe in Saul and not Muhammed when it comes to Jesus's account?

This is a Theological question.

 

[firedragon]

That is a cop out! My question is very valid, and your avoidance of it has proven me to be correct. I would add this. Jesus would NEVER have tolerated His Mother being called deity, yet the Quran says He exalted Allah for saying such a thing. If Allah knew all things, he wouldn't have needed to ask Jesus if he said, "Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah.". He would have already known what Jesus said and did not say. Jesus never considered his mother to be any kind of god.

Katiemygirl =1
firedragon = 0

No cop out. You did not understand the answer, though its kind of cute.

Of course Jesus would have never tolerated his mother being called deity. But they later named her Theotokos. She is the mother Mary, the Mother of God, people pray to her, they ask for wishes. She has been appointed deity, not by Jesus or God, but by his so called followers.

If Lexicons were not needed, there wouldn't be any.

Errrm. Sorry, a bit immature. I think you didnt understand that as well. But, thats alright, its not that important.

I generally use a concordance. I let the Bible itself define words for me. I do word studies. If I want to learn about a word, I first search it out wherever it is used in the Bible. For example, I recently did a study of the word "kingdom." I learn much studying this way. Rather than let the dictionary define the word, I let the Bible define it.

Really. I would like to know how you will let the bible define it when the bible has a bare minimum of 43 different authors, all with different writing styles.

Yes, I understand you use of it, but you must also understand that Jesus would NEVER consider his mother deity, not in a million years. To Jesus, the only deity is GOD. There are many false gods, but there is only ONE GOD, and He is triune. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Again, of course. Thats why Jesus says no in the Quran.

Sashimi is good. Because at least they serve the rice version with Wasabhi and soy sauce.

But I still like my dead animals well done.

 

[paarsurrey]

They may not have believed in the resurrection, but they certainly wrote about it.
Muslims deny Jesus' death on the cross.

Because it never happened.
Regards

 

[Jabar]

@firedragon I would agree 100% on what you said.

 

[paarsurrey]

Just to bring back everybody on the topic "Jesus did not die on the Cross", I repeat the 15th argument here.

15th argument, Jesus did not die on the Cross.

One incident and many aspects?

1. Romans took it as punishment of sedition.
2. The Jews made it as a punishment of blasphemy.
3. Jesus considers it a killing, when one of his disciples betrayed him.
4. Christians think a sacrifice presented for our salvation.

Who is right?
https://themuslimtimes.info/2012/04/14/65-reasons-to-believe-jesus-did-not-die-on-the-cross/

Regards
#828 #844

 

[paarsurrey]

Do you deny secular history?
The most famous Jewish Historian, Flavius Josephus, who was not a believer, wrote the history of the Roman Empire. He also wrote about Jesus Christ, including His widely testified life after death in the "Antiquities of the Jews."
Have you read it? Was Josephus a liar? What about the others?
There are other historians who were not believers who wrote about the crucifiction and resurrection of Jesus.
There is nothing in the Quran to substantiate its claim that Jesus didn't die on the cross. Saying He didn't doesn't make it so.

One may like to read:

"I saw an article in Inquisitor today,wherein someone read through 126 historic documents from 1st century Israel, written by people who should have known about Jesus, yet had never heard of him. This includes Josephus, whose only mention of Jesus is now known to have been a forgery or redaction inserted later by someone else."
Please read post #1 in the thread "Jesus Never Existed" with reference to:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/reasonadvocates/2015/11/03/jesus-never-existed/​

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

With reference to Post #797 above
I give the fifth verse out of total 30 of Quran as given by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with the gist of explanation made by him that:
Jesus did not die on the Cross but died a natural death
(5) 5th verse of Quran:
Quote ."The fifth verse which proves very clearly the death of Prophet Jesus (as) is in this portion of the verse :
مَا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ
وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ
“[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely, Messengers like unto himhad indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food."
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=5&verse=76

This verse decisively and very firmly establishes the death of Jesus (as) for it clarifies the fact that the prophet and his mother, Mary, do not now eat food presently. Indeed, there was
a time in the past when they both used to eat food as is denoted by the verb (kaanaa) which is not used for the present but is used for the past. Now, everyone can comprehend that Mary (as) has stopped to eat because she died a natural death. However, as the verb form (kaamaa) is used for two persons, Jesus (as) is also included in it and both of them under the same rule. As a consequence, we have to admit that Mary(as) as well as Jesus (as) also did die, as the verse being discussed in no way says that Mary (as) stopped eating because of death and that Jesus (as) did so for some other reason. In addition to the above, when we read this verse (5:75) together with with the other verse of Qur’an:
وَمَا جَعَلْنَاهُمْ جَسَدًا لَا يَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ .
[21:9]"And We did not give them bodies that ate no food".
We can reach to a definite and certain conclusion that Jesus (as) did die certainly, for the former verse (5:76) proves beyonddoubt that now neither Mary (as) nor Jesus (as) is eating food while this other one (21:9) mentions that as long as this earthly body is alive it has to eat food. From this, we can undoubtedly conclud that Jesus (as) is not alive."Unquote

"Izala Ouham" Volume-2 ("Roohani Khazain" Volume-3 page 424-425) by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad written in 1891.

Regards
Note: The original book "Izala Ouham" is in Urdu, I have intended to convey the contents by translating the same for benefit of the members here, if there is some difference the original book in Urdu must be referred. I am not a professional translator.
#798 #804

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

One may like to read:

"I saw an article in Inquisitor today,wherein someone read through 126 historic documents from 1st century Israel, written by people who should have known about Jesus, yet had never heard of him. This includes Josephus, whose only mention of Jesus is now known to have been a forgery or redaction inserted later by someone else."
Please read post #1 in the thread "Jesus Never Existed" with reference to:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/reasonadvocates/2015/11/03/jesus-never-existed/​

Regards

You do realise that if Jesus never existed then that means the Bible is wrong, but then so is the Quran, right?

 

[Jabar]

@A Greased Scotsman I believe he does not believe in Jesus. He is Ahmadi muslim. I would provide the same argument. However, Jesus never claimed divinity. He was a prophet.