DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
I think, by "he, He" you mean
paarsurrey
If so kindly check your facts at
https://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
Thanks.
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Jesus did not die on the Cross
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
I think, by "he, He" you mean
paarsurrey
If so kindly check your facts at
https://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
Thanks.
Jabar
“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@DawudTalut Thank you brother, but i did not intend to say that. However, my fault for making it seem as though i did. Is it that they believe Jesus was not the prophet before Muhammad or what?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
We don't believe in Jesus because of history. We believe in Jesus because G-d has mentioned Jesus in Quran. The same way we don't believe in Moses because of history but only because G-d has mentioned Moses in Quran. There is no greater testimony than the testimony of G-d.
Regards
Jabar
“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
@paarsurrey Allah prohibits sects. I respect you a lot, however when it comes to the truth it is the truth. Your religion is man-made while Islam existed from when the first man was created.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
They believe:
1=Jesus (a.s.) was a Prophet before Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).
2=Jesus (a.s.) came as 'rasulan ela bani israela' [Messenger to the children of Israel .... Quran ch3:v50] to serve religion of Moses, Jesus stressed on softness to calm down those who had become hard-hearted after long time.
3=Jesus (a.s.) came as Prophet after 1400 years after Moses (a.s.); he was a Khalifah of Moses.
4=Allah said about Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) that he resembles with Prophet Moses (a.s.) :
[ch73:v16]Verily, We have sent to you a Messenger, who is a witness over you, even as We sent a Messenger to Pharaoh.
a----This indicates, Prophet Muhmmad (s.a.w.) is given a Messiah too after 1400 years to teach calmness to people of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).
5= Chapter 1 Surah al-Fatiha says:
[ch1:v 6] Guide us in the right path —
[ch1: v7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
6= Prophethood is one of the blessings which was given to Previous People.
7= [ch62:v3] He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered (people) a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;
[ch62:v4] And (among) others from among them who have not yet joined them.He is the Mighty, the Wise.
BUT, there is no reincarnation in Islam. How verse 4 will come in reality:
Lets check Quran to solve it:
[ch8:v18] alislam.org
So you killed them not, but it was Allah Who killed them. And thou threwest not when thou didst throw, but it was Allah Who threw, that He might overthrow the disbelievers and that He might confer on the believers a great favour from Himself. Surely, Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
The verse is about Badr battle, when opponents came to annihilate Muslim but Allah helped his people. Here Allah is mentioning His special favour at that time.
Please read especially:
و ما رميت اذ رميت ولكن الله رمى
And thou threwest not when thou didst throw, but it was Allah Who threw
Holy Prophet (pbuh) threw handful of pebbles and at that time, wind blew towards opponents and their were greatly harmed by it......[It resembles with Moses (a.s.) striking water with rod and path was seen]
Another example:
[ch48:v11]
[ch48:v11]Verily, those who swear allegiance to thee indeed swear allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands.So whoever breaks his oath, breaks it to his own loss; and whoever fulfils the covenant that he has made with Allah, He will surely give him a great reward.
LESSONS FROM THESE TWO QURANIC EXAMPLES
Just as Allah is mentioning His utmost closeness with His Prophet (pbuh), and it does not mean both are same.
Therefore the apparent mention of a again comming of Holy Prophet (pbuh) in chapter 62: verse 4
i.e. [ch62:v4] And (among) others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.
DOES NOT mean his again comming. It simply means some servant of Holy Prophet (pbuh) has to come with very close connection of servant-ship with Holy Prophet (pbuh).
8= WHO IS THIS SERVANT, WHICH HAS BEEN FORETOLD IN SURAH JUMUA CHAPTER 62, VERSE 4 ?
a----
This verse is usually translated as
[ch43:v 64] And when Jesus came with clear proofs, he said, ‘Truly I am come to you with wisdom, and to make clear to you some of that about which you differ. So fear Allah and obey me.
But it can also be translated as [reason given below @ 2, that for sure event in future, sometimes past tense can be used]
[ch43:v 64] And when Jesus will come with clear proofs, he will say, ‘Truly I am come to you with wisdom, and to make clear to you some of that about which you differ. So fear Allah and obey me.
[Past tense words can be used to describe;
1 - Past tense - describing an event which happened in the past.
2 - what will NO DOUBT happen in the future, you are so certain that it will happen, that you use a
past tense word to argue that it will NO DOUBT happen, ('as true as the past itself - it is as real as
the past was real. (i.e. Judgment Day is sometimes described in the past tense in the Quran to
emphasise Certainty of that Day).
Allah will say [on Judgment Day], "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their
truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide
forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
(Quran al Maa'idah 5:119 )
We know the word 'Qaala' = he Said (Past tense.) However, Allah is using this Past tense word to
describe a future event, this emphasises Certainty; Certainly on Judgment Day Allah will say this.
This could not be captured in the translation.
https://archive.org/stream/AlMawrid_201401/Understand Arabic_djvu.txt ]
b----
This servant is called:
Esa bin Maryam and
Imam Mahdi, in Ahadith for metaphoric reasons.
According to Ahmadiyya-Muslims, he has come with the spiritual properties of these names.
He is Esa to remind people for calmness.
He is Mahdi to remind people he is servant of Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh).
===================================
More in alislam.org and mta.tv (the oficial sites)
and here in RF, in Ahmadiyya DIR
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...holy-quran-promised-messiah-mahdi-a-s.158922/
Last edited:
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I don't believe you. The way Islam portrays God makes him sound very inconsistent. Why would he tell humanity we're in need of a Saviour and then change his mind? That's like moving the goalposts in an argument - it's dishonest and unfair.
It's far more likely that Muhammad heard about Jesus from Arabian Christians and decided to adapt their story for his own holy book.
Jabar
“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Peace be on you.
They believe:
1=Jesus (a.s.) was a Prophet before Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).
2=Jesus (a.s.) came as 'rasulan ela bani israela' [Messenger to the children of Israel .... Quran ch3:v50] to serve religion of Moses, Jesus stressed on softness to calm down those who had become hard-hearted after long time.
3=Jesus (a.s.) came as Prophet after 1400 years after Moses (a.s.); he was a Khalifah of Moses.
4=Allah said about Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) that he resembles with Prophet Moses (a.s.) :
[ch73:v16]Verily, We have sent to you a Messenger, who is a witness over you, even as We sent a Messenger to Pharaoh.
a----This indicates, Prophet Muhmmad (s.a.w.) is given a Messiah too after 1400 years to teach calmness to people of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).
5= Chapter 1 Surah al-Fatiha says:
[ch1:v 6] Guide us in the right path —
[ch1: v7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
6= Prophethood is one of the blessings which was given to Previous People.
7= [ch62:v3] He it is Who has raised among the Unlettered (people) a Messenger from among themselves who recites unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest misguidance;
[ch62:v4] And (among) others from among them who have not yet joined them.He is the Mighty, the Wise.
BUT, there is no reincarnation in Islam. How verse 4 will come in reality:
Lets check Quran to solve it:
[ch8:v18] alislam.org
So you killed them not, but it was Allah Who killed them. And thou threwest not when thou didst throw, but it was Allah Who threw, that He might overthrow the disbelievers and that He might confer on the believers a great favour from Himself. Surely, Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
The verse is about Badr battle, when opponents came to annihilate Muslim but Allah helped his people. Here Allah is mentioning His special favour at that time.
Please read especially:
و ما رميت اذ رميت ولكن الله رمى
And thou threwest not when thou didst throw, but it was Allah Who threw
Holy Prophet (pbuh) threw handful of pebbles and at that time, wind blew towards opponents and their were greatly harmed by it......[It resembles with Moses (a.s.) striking water with rod and path was seen]
Another example:
[ch48:v11]
[ch48:v11]Verily, those who swear allegiance to thee indeed swear allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands.So whoever breaks his oath, breaks it to his own loss; and whoever fulfils the covenant that he has made with Allah, He will surely give him a great reward.
LESSONS FROM THESE TWO QURANIC EXAMPLES
Just as Allah is mentioning His utmost closeness with His Prophet (pbuh), and it does not mean both are same.
Therefore the apparent mention of a again comming of Holy Prophet (pbuh) in chapter 62: verse 4
i.e. [ch62:v4] And (among) others from among them who have not yet joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.
DOES NOT mean his again comming. It simply means some servant of Holy Prophet (pbuh) has to come with very close connection of servant-ship with Holy Prophet (pbuh).
8= WHO IS THIS SERVANT, WHICH HAS BEEN FORETOLD IN SURAH JUMUA CHAPTER 62, VERSE 4 ?
a----
This verse is usually translated as
[ch43:v 64] And when Jesus came with clear proofs, he said, ‘Truly I am come to you with wisdom, and to make clear to you some of that about which you differ. So fear Allah and obey me.
But it can also be translated as [reason given below @ 2, that for sure event in future, sometimes past tense can be used]
[ch43:v 64] And when Jesus will come with clear proofs, he will say, ‘Truly I am come to you with wisdom, and to make clear to you some of that about which you differ. So fear Allah and obey me.
[Past tense words can be used to describe;
1 - Past tense - describing an event which happened in the past.
2 - what will NO DOUBT happen in the future, you are so certain that it will happen, that you use a
past tense word to argue that it will NO DOUBT happen, ('as true as the past itself - it is as real as
the past was real. (i.e. Judgment Day is sometimes described in the past tense in the Quran to
emphasise Certainty of that Day).
Allah will say [on Judgment Day], "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their
truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide
forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
(Quran al Maa'idah 5:119 )
We know the word 'Qaala' = he Said (Past tense.) However, Allah is using this Past tense word to
describe a future event, this emphasises Certainty; Certainly on Judgment Day Allah will say this.
This could not be captured in the translation.
https://archive.org/stream/AlMawrid_201401/Understand Arabic_djvu.txt ]
b----
This servant is called:
Esa bin Maryam and
Imam Mahdi, in Ahadith for metaphoric reasons.
According to Ahmadiyya-Muslims, he has come with the spiritual properties of these names.
He is Esa to remind people for calmness.
He is Mahdi to remind people he is servant of Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh).
===================================
More in alislam.org and mta.tv (the oficial sites)
and here in RF, in Ahmadiyya DIR
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...holy-quran-promised-messiah-mahdi-a-s.158922/
Okay i get it, however Islam prohibits sects. Of course i am not saying they will go to hell, however it still is not truly the right path. Qur'an says:
[6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform them of everything they had done.
So, i believe Muhammad is the last prophet and there are none after him.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
1=Thanks, you are free to choose your opinion.
2=One sees your noble intention that there should not be sects.
Please let me present verse about split and remedy.
The guidance comes form this verse:
[ch2:v214] Mankind were one community, (then they differed among themselves), so Allah raised Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and sent down with them the Book containing the truth that He might judge between the people wherein they differed. (But now they began to differ about the Book), and none differed about it except those to whom it was given, after clear Signs had come to them, out of envy towards one another. Now has Allah, by His command, guided the believers to the truth in regard to which they (the unbelievers) differed; and Allah guides whomsoever He pleases to the right path.
3=Once sects are formed (in all religions), how to bring them back at unity?
Calling a round table conference. [there have been summits, conferences.....]
By some governmental rule.
Through internet etc.
Through clergies.
...
...
Unfortunately none of these worldly methods works.
4=The divine way is through Promised Reformer. Allah collects people through this way.
Thus we believe Ahmadiyya Promised Messiah Mahdi (on whom be peace) was given revelation:
November 20, 1905
Translation: [Arabic] I am with you. O son of the Messenger of Allah. [Urdu] Gather together all the Muslims961 who are on the earth [Arabic] [on one religion].
[Badr, vol. 1, no. 37, November 24, 1905, p. 2 and al-Hakam, vol. 9, no. 41, November 24, 1905, p. 1]
On page 53 of the Notebook of the Revelations of the Promised Messiah as, the revelation is recorded in Arabic as following:
[Arabic] [Gather together all the Muslims on the face of the earth so that they should unite in one faith].
Ref: Page 763, 764 @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Tadhkirah.pdf
5=Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) was asked by Allah to announce a unification too:
[ch3:v65] Say, ‘O People of the Book! come to a word equal between us and you — that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partner with Him, and that some of us take not others for Lords beside Allah.’ But if they turn away, then say, ‘Bear witness that we have submitted to God.’
6= Ahmadiyya Muslims believe:
a- Indeed Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) was Last Prophet with Last Shariah.
b- Indeed Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) was the Seal of all Prophets / Chief of all Prophets.
c- The obedience of other Prophets could grant noble people few station:
[57:20] And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers, they are the Truthful and the Witnesses in the sight of their Lord, they will have their reward and their light. But as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, these are the inmates of Hell.
BUT
The obedience of Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) can grant highest spiritual stations:
[4:70] And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger of His shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings, namely, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And excellent companions are these.
Thus Ahmadiyya-Muslims believe our Holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) has the greatest قوة قدسيه.
6=Along with arguments, one can always pray to Allah to find the truth regarding these matters. There are many people who prayed to Allah and they were guided to Ahmadiyya-Islam, The Islam.
Very good wishes.
Last edited:
Jabar
“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Exactly, however all i am saying is that it is not a good thing. There should only be one type of Muslims, just Muslims.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Quran does not mention it. Please quote from Quran where this thing is menioned.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
16th argument, Jesus did not die on the Cross.
Jesus’ prayers and supplications to be saved from crucifixion:
Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. (John 26: 36)
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. (John 26: 39)
…. He went away again, and prayed the second time and prayed, saying ……and prayed the third time, saying the same words. (John 26:42-44)
https://themuslimtimes.info/2012/04/14/65-reasons-to-believe-jesus-did-not-die-on-the-cross/
So G-d heard Jesus supplications and saved his life from death on the Cross. It is not less than a miracle. Is it? Please
Regards
#828 #844
Jesus’ prayers and supplications to be saved from crucifixion:
Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. (John 26: 36)
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. (John 26: 39)
…. He went away again, and prayed the second time and prayed, saying ……and prayed the third time, saying the same words. (John 26:42-44)
https://themuslimtimes.info/2012/04/14/65-reasons-to-believe-jesus-did-not-die-on-the-cross/
So G-d heard Jesus supplications and saved his life from death on the Cross. It is not less than a miracle. Is it? Please
Regards
#828 #844
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Sura 19:33 (Mariam) Jesus is quoted as saying, "So peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life."
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I didn't say the Quran mentioned it. The Bible does though.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey said: ↑
We don't believe in Jesus because of history. We believe in Jesus because G-d has mentioned Jesus in Quran. The same way we don't believe in Moses because of history but only because G-d has mentioned Moses in Quran. There is no greater testimony than the testimony of G-d.
Regards
Regards
We don't believe in Jesus because of history. We believe in Jesus because G-d has mentioned Jesus in Quran. The same way we don't believe in Moses because of history but only because G-d has mentioned Moses in Quran. There is no greater testimony than the testimony of G-d.
Regards
So there is no inconsistency in Quran . Thank you.
Regards
Faronator
Genetically Engineered
There are dozens of inconsistencies and errors but I suppose that's what happens when you steal from other sources that are equally as full of inconsistencies and errors, huh?
firedragon
Veteran Member
What inconsistency, about Jesus?
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
That's not what I said nor inferred as I wasn't talking about the Quran. The inconsistency is actually on the part of the Abrahamic god. First he tells the Jews that they've been chosen to keep his laws & covenants, then he tells them 'forget that, you didn't do what I wanted so you're on your own' so he hits out with 'all mankind needs to believe in me and the Saviour I send to save you from the sin I entrapped humanity into, and finally he (apparently) tells people: actually, forget the first two gags. Just believe in me and admit you're my slave and you'll be fine.
God is all-powerful yet he doesn't have the power to be consistent.
Faronator
Genetically Engineered
I didn't mean about Jesus in particular but for example - in the Q it states whether based on a dream or not - there are 11 planets. Care to name them? Or should we go with 7 heavens which can loosely be translated by some as 7 planets which is a tad bit closer to reality as we know it.
The Bible on the other hand is jam packed with Jesus inconsistencies - take your pick. My favorite is his place of birth.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the idea of corruption suggests that the Bible isn't what it should be but that is something that Muslims can't prove because it isn't true.
There is a slight and unimportant amount of this that does not alter the text that is there as opposed to the Qu'ran which has two grievous errors in it that comes by tampering with it.
I believe this does talk about the crucifixion:
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
The word extension suggests an interruption of life so it is reasonable to see the resurrection as the extension of His life