Jesus did not die on the Cross

[firedragon]

I didn't mean about Jesus in particular but for example - in the Q it states whether based on a dream or not - there are 11 planets. Care to name them? Or should we go with 7 heavens which can loosely be translated by some as 7 planets which is a tad bit closer to reality as we know it.

The Bible on the other hand is jam packed with Jesus inconsistencies - take your pick. My favorite is his place of birth.

There are other inconsistencies generally others mention. I dont agree with them for the record, but there are others more viable which may need explanation.

But I would like know where it says that there are 11 planets?

 

[Faronator]

There are other inconsistencies generally others mention. I dont agree with them for the record, but there are others more viable which may need explanation.

But I would like know where it says that there are 11 planets?

I'm not that familiar with the book to quote verses but Google it - it's there according to someone's dream and was significant enough to make its way into the book. If I wasn't on my phone I'd provide you with it. If you don't want to search on your own, I'll give it to you a little later on. No big deal!

 

[Pastek]

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus places being born first, then dying second, and being raised last.

The same is said about John. Born first, death second, resurrection last.

So why do you believe Jesus will come back and then die? What verse in the Quran says this?

It's better if you quote the Bible because i'm not sure what you're talking about, sorry.

43.61And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

There's no much about the come back of Jesus actually in the Quran but it's from prophesies from prophet Muhammad.

 

[Faronator]

I'm not that familiar with the book to quote verses but Google it - it's there according to someone's dream and was significant enough to make its way into the book. If I wasn't on my phone I'd provide you with it. If you don't want to search on your own, I'll give it to you a little later on. No big deal!

Here you go:

Quran: Chapter Yusuf(Joseph) A.

12:4. When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.

 

[DawudTalut]

Sura 19:33 (Mariam) Jesus is quoted as saying, "So peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life."

Peace be on you.
Similar words are use for John the Baptist [Prophet Yahya , on whom be peace]:
[19:16] And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and (peace there will be on him) the day he will be raised up to life (again).

These words does not mean Jesus is still alive. Jesus and Yahya are both gone. Once when one go to God, never comes back, even the Chief of All Prophets did not.
Jesus survived death on cross otherwise, it could become proof of cursed death. God just created doubt, not in the form of another person but in terms of circumstances at existing time.
You might want to read about other aspects @ https://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
[Ahmadiyya Muslim resources]
Good wishes.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, that is what I am referring to and that's because it isn't in The Bible...

And we have 9 planets IF you count Pluto - hard to say what those other two ( maybe three ) the Qu'ran speak of are unless...

1. It was a wild guess

Or

2. They mistakenly called the Sun and our Moon a planet

I believe it is just recently that they discovered the tenth planet and if they didn't know about that one until recently it is just as likely there could be another one they don't know about.

 

[Muffled]

Here you go:

Quran: Chapter Yusuf(Joseph) A.

12:4. When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed yet a dream: and, behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me.

I believe you should understand that dreams are not necessarily factual.

 

[Pastek]

Here you go:

Quran: Chapter Yusuf(Joseph) A.

12:4. When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.

It also means "stars". 2 words in arabic for star : najem (noujoum plural), kawkeb (kawakeb plural)

So sometimes it may be translated differently.

For exemple in the surah 55.6 some translate the word "noujoum" (stars) as herbs.

Here (Sahih international) noujoum = stars : http://www.quran.com/55
Here(Yusuf Ali) noujoum = herbs : http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/?Sura=55&FromVerse=29&Translation=Eng-Yusuf Ali&Script=Usmani

 

[paarsurrey]

Peace be on you.
Similar words are use for John the Baptist [Prophet Yahya , on whom be peace]:
[19:16] And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and (peace there will be on him) the day he will be raised up to life (again).
These words does not mean Jesus is still alive. Jesus and Yahya are both gone. Once when one go to God, never comes back, even the Chief of All Prophets did not.
Jesus survived death on cross otherwise, it could become proof of cursed death. God just created doubt, not in the form of another person but in terms of circumstances at existing time.
You might want to read about other aspects @ https://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
[Ahmadiyya Muslim resources]
Good wishes.

A very good point.
Thanks and regards

 

[Muffled]

Peace be on you.
Similar words are use for John the Baptist [Prophet Yahya , on whom be peace]:
[19:16] And peace was on him the day he was born, and the day he died, and (peace there will be on him) the day he will be raised up to life (again).

These words does not mean Jesus is still alive. Jesus and Yahya are both gone. Once when one go to God, never comes back, even the Chief of All Prophets did not.
Jesus survived death on cross otherwise, it could become proof of cursed death. God just created doubt, not in the form of another person but in terms of circumstances at existing time.
You might want to read about other aspects @ https://www.alislam.org/topics/jesus/
[Ahmadiyya Muslim resources]
Good wishes.

I believe they do mean that they will be raised up to life again after death but it does not say when. I believe Jesus was raised at the resurrection but there is no information on John the Baptist. His resurrection certainly will come when all belonging to Jesus will be raised in the future.

I believe the evidence is to the contrary.

I believe your lack of evidence does not cover your presupposition that God can't be cursed. I assure there are people on RF who do just that in their own way.

I believe the doubt was not created by God. I believe the observers were just not aware that His death was only physical even though He spoke the words.

 

[paarsurrey]

That is not what Jesus said. Jesus places being born first, then dying second, and being raised last.
The same is said about John. Born first, death second, resurrection last.
So why do you believe Jesus will come back and then die? What verse in the Quran says this?

I agree with you.
Thanks and regards

 

[firedragon]

I'm not that familiar with the book to quote verses but Google it - it's there according to someone's dream and was significant enough to make its way into the book. If I wasn't on my pone I'd provide you with it. If you don't want to search on your own, I'll give it to you a little later on. No big deal!

Thats fair enough.

These planets have too many scientific arguments for and against Thus I concede, I am no scientist.

I think you were referring to Yusufs episode.

First, this verse does not say dream. It is derived as a dream based on the next verse which says Ru'ya by some (' is an Ain or Ghain), which is vision in the Quranic context, not dream.

This word Kawkabun can be planets, stars and orbs. If the context is within the solar system it will refer to planets and orbs. That's the natural rendition of the classical Arabic word.

Nevertheless, I though you were referring to inconsistencies of the Jesus narrative in the Quran.

 

[paarsurrey]

Another question for my Muslim friends?
Why would Jesus, who was sinless, say He would die and be raised to life? Isn't lying a sin?
Sura 19:33 (Mariam) Jesus is quoted as saying, "So peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life."

There is no lie attributed to Jesus in the verse of Quran. Jesus did not die on the Cross, he died a natural death in Kashmir, and like ever virtuous person was raised to heaven, nothing special about Jesus.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Isn't heaven a spiritual realm, not defined by space nor time?

Yes, it is spiritual realm without dimension of time and space.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

That's not what I said nor inferred as I wasn't talking about the Quran. The inconsistency is actually on the part of the Abrahamic god. First he tells the Jews that they've been chosen to keep his laws & covenants, then he tells them 'forget that, you didn't do what I wanted so you're on your own' so he hits out with 'all mankind needs to believe in me and the Saviour I send to save you from the sin I entrapped humanity into, and finally he (apparently) tells people: actually, forget the first two gags. Just believe in me and admit you're my slave and you'll be fine.
God is all-powerful yet he doesn't have the power to be consistent.

The notion of Abrahamic-God is wrong. G-d always existed, He was as much G-d of Noah or Adam as of Abraham.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Sura 19:33 (Mariam) Jesus is quoted as saying, "So peace be on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die; and may peace be upon me on the day when I shall be raised to life."

This should be read with this verse to get clear understanding:
When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=55
Regards

 

[Walter Russell]

I believe this is your opinion with no basis in fact. We have facts: Jesus told His disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

Facts you say? You can't prove Jesus or his disciples ever even existed.
Theres more evidence to suggest they are merely allegories of the cosmos than there is to suggest they were historical figures.

I understand where your coming from though. I use to make comments like yours until I stepped outside the little bubble I was living in.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The notion of Abrahamic-God is wrong. G-d always existed, He was as much G-d of Noah or Adam as of Abraham.
Regards

"Abrahamic god" is the term used to identify the deity worshipped by the three Abrahamic faiths - who all hold Abraham as a sacred figure. It's a commonly used moniker and using it does not discount this god being the same God worshipped by Adam & Noah.

 

[paarsurrey]

"Abrahamic god" is the term used to identify the deity worshipped by the three Abrahamic faiths - who all hold Abraham as a sacred figure. It's a commonly used moniker and using it does not discount this god being the same God worshipped by Adam & Noah.

For the Muslims the Christian-God Jesus is not a god and won't fit into the definition of Abrahamic-God, the same would be the position of Judaism, they won't acknowledge the Christian-God Jesus.
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

For the Muslims the Christian-God Jesus is not a god and won't fit into the definition of Abrahamic-God, the same would be the position of Judaism, they won't acknowledge the Christian-God Jesus.
Regards

It has been explained on other threads that (most) Christians believe that Jesus is God in human form. He's not a separate deity. You should stop misrepresenting other beliefs you claim to have love for.