Jesus drank alcohol

[Jaymes]

Just jumping in here, so forgive me if I repeat something already said.

But they don't naturally lead to excess. And they also have a purpose. Drinking has none.

False on both counts. Anything can become addictive (reference: Feathers and crocheting or myself and the internet). You can't say some things naturally lead to excess and others don't when there are moderate drinkers and people who become obsessed with other things.

Workaholics, chain smokers, alcoholics, the morbidly obese... they all hurt themselves, and some hurt their families with the way they live as well. While binge drinking has no benefit, a glass of red wine 3-4 times a week helps prevent cancer. Yay for red grapes!

 

[dan]

Just jumping in here, so forgive me if I repeat something already said.False on both counts. Anything can become addictive (reference: Feathers and crocheting or myself and the internet). You can't say some things naturally lead to excess and others don't when there are moderate drinkers and people who become obsessed with other things.

Workaholics, chain smokers, alcoholics, the morbidly obese... they all hurt themselves, and some hurt their families with the way they live as well. While binge drinking has no benefit, a glass of red wine 3-4 times a week helps prevent cancer. Yay for red grapes!

As I've stated many times, a handful of grapes provides the same benefits as a glass of red wine. There is no righteous reason to drink.

 

[Jaymes]

There's no righteous reason to get a back massage, either, but that doesn't make it sinful.

EDIT: Upon further research, I found out that the component in red grapes they believed to have positive health benefits actually does not.

However, in another study it was found that:

"Other studies have shown that similar beneficial effects can be obtained from drinking beer, and distilled spirits. It is unclear if this means that the only important ingredient is ethanol. Dean Edell, M.D., asserts that there are "differences of opinion about whether beer, wine, or liquor offers the quickest route to a longer life. Of ten major studies, one-third found this true for wine, one-third for beer, and one-third for liquor. Most researchers now believe that it is the alcohol in all of them that provides the magic, but they don’t rule out other components of alcoholic beverages.""

 

[wild20]

Wine was nonalcoholic back then and was new wine. Jesus never drank alcohol and condemed it. Your question is good, but the answer is simple. Jesus never drank alcohol and many people just use this to teqar down Christianity.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

My problem is that saying, "It's ok in moderation" leads many (not all) to addiction and abuse. Saying don't drink it at all causes much less of that. For a religion to condone drinking at all opens the door for a lot of problems. Why bother for a pointless pursuit?

The thing is that alchohol is a regulated gift, just like sex. Sex leads many (not all) people into many different kinds of addictions and unhealthy behaviors like rape, addiction to porn, adultry, child abuse, and disease. The Bible does not require Christians to not ever have sex because some people can't handle it due to chemical embalances in their body. Just like people are predisposed chemically to be alchoholics, many people cannot handle the chemical responses in their bodies- they just love to rape children (etc.).

The solution to both problems is regulation. Alchohol should be consumed in moderation, and the best thing for people (in my view of course) is to follow biblical mandates instead of making up whatever they want. In my view, God determines what is right and wrong, and the best thing for people to do is follow those guidelines. God determined that alcohol should be consumed in moderation - Jesus gave people alchohol and the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) say that alchohol is a gift from the Lord. Sex is a gift, too, and both are regulated.

Enjoy!:jam:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Wine was nonalcoholic back then and was new wine. Jesus never drank alcohol and condemed it. Your question is good, but the answer is simple. Jesus never drank alcohol and many people just use this to teqar down Christianity.

If wine was non-alchoholic, why does the New Testament say that deacons should not be drunk on much wine? What are they getting drunk on if not the alchohol in the wine?

Why were Roman soldiers in Jesus's day rationed wine (with higher alchohol content than Germanic beer)?

You are propounding a historical fantasy.

 

[Jaymes]

The thing is that alchohol is a regulated gift, just like sex. Sex leads many (not all) people into many different kinds of addictions and unhealthy behaviors like rape. . .

Rape is not a by-product of sexual addiction.

 

[dan]

If wine was non-alchoholic, why does the New Testament say that deacons should not be drunk on much wine? What are they getting drunk on if not the alchohol in the wine?

Why were Roman soldiers in Jesus's day rationed wine (with higher alchohol content than Germanic beer)?

You are propounding a historical fantasy.

Holy crap, is anyone listening? My first post on what "wine" means answers these questions. Read that and your concerns will be satisfied.

 

[Jaymes]

Holy crap, is anyone listening? My first post on what "wine" means answers these questions. Read that and your concerns will be satisfied.

Could you please address what I said about the grapes?

 

[dan]

How about I show you a scientific study that proves oral sex causes cancer? I can come up with just as many studies as you can. How about another study in which the good doctor you named says parents should be teaching their children to drink alcohol well before turning twenty-one? Why the fetish for promoting the consumption of alcohol? How about his other study that says chocolate has the same beneficial properties as wine. Dark chocolate has twice as many.

Reactive oxygen species (ROS) are produced in human metabolic processes, and are detrimental to human health. Tannins are biological anti-oxydants that scavenge and destroy these ROS. Catechins are another beneficial substance. The following site explains how tannins work:

http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/view.cgi?acc_num=miami1089232925

This site explains all the beneficial properties in green tea. There are more than listed for alcohol:

http://www.worldconsortium.com/botframe.htm

The following site offers a big list of foods that offer all the benefits of wine and many more:

http://www.askdrhelen.com/hl_phytochemical.html

There is a righteous reason for a back rub. I happen to be a massage therapist, and I could make a three page list of all its health benefits if you really want. Once again, there is no righteous reason to drink alcohol.

 

[dan]

Rape is not a by-product of sexual addiction.

That's debatable. If you'd like to hear what sex means to human relationships I'll be happy to inform you.

 

[lonewalker]

Lv:10:8: And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,
Lv:10:9: Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Lk:1:13: But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Lk:1:14: And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Lk:1:15: For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

I don't know why Jesus did. But I see why John didn't.

 

[Jaymes]

That's debatable.

No, it is not. Rape is an act of violence and dominance, not sex.

On alcohol: Why the crusade against it? Other things having the substances believed to prevent cancer doesn't change that alcohol has it in it. Gluttony is supposed to be a sin, as well... should we all eat as little as possible and supplement what we need with multivitamins?

Wouldn't it be more productive to go on one against cigarettes? They hurt far worse...

 

[Merlin]

I've had all of these things, and what I'm saying is that no one takes their first sip of an alcoholic beverage and says, "Man! That is good!" It is always a tough experience, accompanied by squinting eyes, a grimace and heavy exhalations, depending on what it was.

I love the way you say things with such certainty. Even if what you say is, frankly, complete nonsense. When my wife brings a cold beer after working on a hot day in the garden, that is exactly what I say; "wow, that is good". Not a grimace in sight.

Of course, I could be unique in the world.

 

[Merlin]

Consider the following quotes from ancient literature.

“If you wish to have must (i.e., grape juice) all year put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch: sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year.” (De Agri Cultura CXX, Marcus Porcius Cato the elder who lived from 234-149 B.C.; quoted from Sipping Saints by Rick Lanning and also The Bible, The Saint, and The Liquor Industry by Jim McGuiggan). Thus juice could be kept from fermenting if sealed and kept below a certain temperature which immobilizes the yeast from fermenting.

Perhaps the very rich person living in a temperate climate (even in Italy) could do this. But have you ever seen pictures of the holy land? How many fishponds to you think there are in this arid region? And if there was a fish pond, do you think it would be "permanently below a certain required temperature".

You really are desperate to prove that grape juice rather than wine was the drink of the day. you ignore the natural fermentation on the journey from the vineyards (which are often on the high slopes of the Hills) to the markets. You assume that the mainly poor farming population would have the resources or the will to go through these elaborate and expensive processes just to prevent alcohol entering their wine. Forgive me, but the whole concept is rather silly.

what would people's motivation be to spend this amount of time and money to prevent wine being alcoholic? Do you not think there would be a bigger market for alcoholic wine than these expensive sealed jars of grape juice?

In those days, and in that sort of heat, the quality of food and water people would have available would, by modern standards, be considered dangerous.

There is nothing wrong with you having modern restrictions on your own diet, it is not possible for you to translate those backwards 2000 years. alcoholic Wine and beer were just normal household items in those days.

 

[ChrisP]

Perhaps the very rich person living in a temperate climate (even in Italy) could do this. But have you ever seen pictures of the holy land? How many fishponds to you think there are in this arid region? And if there was a fish pond, do you think it would be "permanently below a certain required temperature".

You really are desperate to prove that grape juice rather than wine was the drink of the day. you ignore the natural fermentation on the journey from the vineyards (which are often on the high slopes of the Hills) to the markets. You assume that the mainly poor farming population would have the resources or the will to go through these elaborate and expensive processes just to prevent alcohol entering their wine. Forgive me, but the whole concept is rather silly.

what would people's motivation be to spend this amount of time and money to prevent wine being alcoholic? Do you not think there would be a bigger market for alcoholic wine than these expensive sealed jars of grape juice?

In those days, and in that sort of heat, the quality of food and water people would have available would, by modern standards, be considered dangerous.

There is nothing wrong with you having modern restrictions on your own diet, it is not possible for you to translate those backwards 2000 years. alcoholic Wine and beer were just normal household items in those days.

It's important to note the alcohol content would have been considerably lower. Until the last 30 years beer was around 2 % alcohol.

 

[Merlin]

It's important to note the alcohol content would have been considerably lower. Until the last 30 years beer was around 2 % alcohol.

Fair comment, although it is difficult to know. There are also quite a lot of references throughout the Bible to people getting quite intoxicated. But who knows?

 

[dan]

No, it is not. Rape is an act of violence and dominance, not sex.

On alcohol: Why the crusade against it? Other things having the substances believed to prevent cancer doesn't change that alcohol has it in it. Gluttony is supposed to be a sin, as well... should we all eat as little as possible and supplement what we need with multivitamins?

Wouldn't it be more productive to go on one against cigarettes? They hurt far worse...

Rape is caused by many things. I do not encapsulate all rape under one heading as you do. It's more complicated that that.

The crusade against it because it is responsible for more deaths than all the wars in recorded history combined. It's people who condone its use that leave abusers free to abuse. If it's allowed at all there are always going to be people who use it incorrectly and end up killing other people. Ask any person who's mother, father, son or brother has been killed by a drunk driver if they really give a crap about what you think about alcohol. They could care less about your opinion. Alcohol killed someone they loved. I've seen this and I bet you have too. Not drinking alcohol has never been responsible for anyone's death. You never see signs up for Mothers Against Sober Driving.

Your gluttony point is ridiculous. I'm not talking about sin here, I'm talking about the biggest killer our world has known.

Cigarrettes are more dangerous? Smoking while driving is not against the law. It's never (to my knowledge) caused huge deadly car accidents or caused honorable people to commit adultery or pee on their boss' desk. To my knowledge no one has ever smoked a cigarrette and then passed out on a highway and got run over by a semi. THis happened to the husband of someone I knew in Uruguay. Freakin' commies always gettin' drunk. This is another ridiculous comparison, but smoking is not condoned by the Lord, which is what this conversation is about. Everyone knows that. I don't feel it's necessary to go on that campaign.

 

[dan]

I love the way you say things with such certainty. Even if what you say is, frankly, complete nonsense. When my wife brings a cold beer after working on a hot day in the garden, that is exactly what I say; "wow, that is good". Not a grimace in sight.

Of course, I could be unique in the world.

You really aren't paying attention are you? I am speaking of the first taste ever of alcohol. I tried it when I was ten. I also started smoking when I was eleven. I quit drinking at twenty, and quit smoking at nineteen. I did grimace the first time, as did you. Alcohol doesn't taste like Kool-Aid, it takes a while to get used to.

 

[michel]

Rape is caused by many things. I do not encapsulate all rape under one heading as you do. It's more complicated that that.

The crusade against it because it is responsible for more deaths than all the wars in recorded history combined. It's people who condone its use that leave abusers free to abuse. If it's allowed at all there are always going to be people who use it incorrectly and end up killing other people. Ask any person who's mother, father, son or brother has been killed by a drunk driver if they really give a crap about what you think about alcohol. They could care less about your opinion. Alcohol killed someone they loved. I've seen this and I bet you have too. Not drinking alcohol has never been responsible for anyone's death. You never see signs up for Mothers Against Sober Driving.

Your gluttony point is ridiculous. I'm not talking about sin here, I'm talking about the biggest killer our world has known.

Cigarrettes are more dangerous? Smoking while driving is not against the law. It's never (to my knowledge) caused huge deadly car accidents or caused honorable people to commit adultery or pee on their boss' desk. To my knowledge no one has ever smoked a cigarrette and then passed out on a highway and got run over by a semi. THis happened to the husband of someone I knew in Uruguay. Freakin' commies always gettin' drunk. This is another ridiculous comparison, but smoking is not condoned by the Lord, which is what this conversation is about. Everyone knows that. I don't feel it's necessary to go on that campaign.

i suppose you are right, and we should stick to the subject of drink; rape isn't the topic, though I wou;d Love to hear your thoughts on that in another thread; Jensa said it as it is, about rape.

The topic is 'Jesus drank alcohol' - let's try and stick to that; if you want to talk about alcohol related crime, that's fine too, but there again, that will be another thread.