Jesus Failed Right?

[Colt]

Jesus said he for the Jews.

The Jewish followers of Jesus said he was for the Jews. Jesus said go into all the world not all of Israel who rejected him.

 

[Ajax]

I don't understand what you mean. I can quote you the whole paragraph of the Canaanite Woman’s Faith and there is nothing else mentioned there for you to suggest there is more to it. The same for Matthew 10:5-6.
Can you please explain?

As far as I can see, the fact is that Jesus did say to the Canaanite woman “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This is undisputed.
My question therefore is, did he lie to her, or did he change his mind later? That's all I want to know.

It's strange how people disappear, when they are asked a simple question...

 

[InChrist]

This is Paul's view. As best I recall, none of the others mentions it.

What’s this then…
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” John1:1-2 ?

in Judaism, “I Am” is unquestionably understood as a name for God. Jesus made seven “I Am” statements in which He claimed attributes of deity.
He was identifying Himself as God.

1. I Am The Bread Of Life ( John 6:35)
2. I Am The Light Of The World (John 8:12)
3. I Am The Gate For The Sheep (John 10:7)
4. I Am The Good Shepherd (John 10:11)
5. I Am The Resurrection And The Life (John 11:25)
6. I Am The Way The Truth And The Life (John 14:6)
7. I Am The True Vine (John 15:1)

Then in Matthew…

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23


Anyway, the Apostles were in agreement with Paul’s writing and doctrine…

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:14-16

As I said, all five versions of Jesus deny they're God, so your version makes Jesus a liar ─ indeed, with a lie so substantial it undoes his entire mission (or would, if I could actually work out why any mission was necessary at all, given an omnipotent God).

What else do you say he lied or dissembled about, what other deceits did he include?

Clearly, considering the above scriptures and others I didn’t list, I don’t say or think Jesus lied about anything.

¿Ché? If there's one thing the God of the Tanakh never was, it 's triune. For instance, as I understand it, the ruach, the breath or spirit of God in the Tanakh, is not a separate entity but one manifestation of the one God.


A good many Christians, though not a majority, believe in Jesus without believing in the Trinity, so what persuaded you that the Trinity was a good idea? I gave a summary as to why it's not only a nonsense but confessed to be such, >here<.

How about this in the the Tanakh?


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”


Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. Psalm 2:12

Even the OT right from the beginning and elsewhere points to the Triune Nature of the Godhead.

 

[blü 2]

What’s this then…
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” John1:1-2 ?

in Judaism, “I Am” is unquestionably understood as a name for God. Jesus made seven “I Am” statements in which He claimed attributes of deity.
He was identifying Himself as God.

1. I Am The Bread Of Life ( John 6:35)
2. I Am The Light Of The World (John 8:12)
3. I Am The Gate For The Sheep (John 10:7)
4. I Am The Good Shepherd (John 10:11)
5. I Am The Resurrection And The Life (John 11:25)
6. I Am The Way The Truth And The Life (John 14:6)
7. I Am The True Vine (John 15:1)

As I said, no author is more emphatic that Jesus is NOT God than the author of John.

And John's Jesus, like Paul's, being a gnostic-flavored Jesus, created the material universe, unlike the other three Jesuses/ This is in direct disagreement with Genesis, which attributes creation to the one God of the Tanakh, and not to any envoy of God or business partner of God. What could be a balder declaration of envoy status and NOT God status than John's Jesus' "John 17: 3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

Then in Matthew…

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” Matthew 1:23

That child (Isaiah 7:14) was born to that woman-of-marriageable age (to render the Hebrew as the concordance says) and the plot had finished with that child before the end of Isaiah 8.

Virginity is asserted with the Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke. It's never mentioned by Paul or the authors of Mark or John. An objective onlooker might note that it actually could make political sense if the authors of Matthew and of Luke thought Jesus was conceived outside of wedlock. But for one reason or another they seized on the Septuagint's translation of Isaiah 7:14, where the Greek word indeed is the word for 'virgin' while the Hebrew original is not.

Anyway, the Apostles were in agreement with Paul’s writing and doctrine…

Is there any evidence that the gospel authors had ever read anything by Paul? They'd certainly never met him. The author of John attributes the same gnostic qualities to Jesus that Paul does ie pre-existing in heaven with God and creating the material universe regardless of Genesis. The synoptic authors express no such views, as far as I'm aware ─ feel free to correct me.

Thanks for the mention of 2 Peter 3. I think it's fair to say that the authorship and dating of both letters attributed to Peter are matters of considerable and unresolved scholarly disagreement. What I think is relevant to my view is that there's no evidence the gospel authors knew of Paul's writings.

How about this in the the Tanakh?

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”


Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. Psalm 2:12

Even the OT right from the beginning and elsewhere points to the Triune Nature of the Godhead.

David is said to be God's son via Psalms 2:7, but I'm not aware of the title Son of God (meant to be taken literally) elsewhere in the Tanakh.

And it seems to me to be a good idea, when in doubt about matters mentioned in the Tanakh, to ask your Jewish friends what they think it means. It's their book, after all. And the Jesus of the NT was not triune, not God's equal, in any version, and doesn't become God until the fourth century CE.

IF Jesus was God, he only had to say so clearly once ─ but instead, as I said, all five version expressly deny they're God (as I showed you) and never claim to be God.

Why would all four gospel Jesuses go into the garden and ask God to change [his] mind about the coming crucifixion part? Had any of them been God, that would have simply happened; instead God (as entirely distinct from Jesus) said, No, the plan for you to die now is going ahead. Why would the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew say on the Cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?"

 

[Colt]

As I said, no author is more emphatic that Jesus is NOT God than the author of John.

And John's Jesus, like Paul's, being a gnostic-flavored Jesus, created the material universe, unlike the other three Jesuses/ This is in direct disagreement with Genesis, which attributes creation to the one God of the Tanakh, and not to any envoy of God or business partner of God. What could be a balder declaration of envoy status and NOT God status than John's Jesus' "John 17: 3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”



That child (Isaiah 7:14) was born to that woman-of-marriageable age (to render the Hebrew as the concordance says) and the plot had finished with that child before the end of Isaiah 8.

Virginity is asserted with the Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke. It's never mentioned by Paul or the authors of Mark or John. An objective onlooker might note that it actually could make political sense if the authors of Matthew and of Luke thought Jesus was conceived outside of wedlock. But for one reason or another they seized on the Septuagint's translation of Isaiah 7:14, where the Greek word indeed is the word for 'virgin' while the Hebrew original is not.


Is there any evidence that the gospel authors had ever read anything by Paul? They'd certainly never met him. The author of John attributes the same gnostic qualities to Jesus that Paul does ie pre-existing in heaven with God and creating the material universe regardless of Genesis. The synoptic authors express no such views, as far as I'm aware ─ feel free to correct me.

Thanks for the mention of 2 Peter 3. I think it's fair to say that the authorship and dating of both letters attributed to Peter are matters of considerable and unresolved scholarly disagreement. What I think is relevant to my view is that there's no evidence the gospel authors knew of Paul's writings.


David is said to be God's son via Psalms 2:7, but I'm not aware of the title Son of God (meant to be taken literally) elsewhere in the Tanakh.

And it seems to me to be a good idea, when in doubt about matters mentioned in the Tanakh, to ask your Jewish friends what they think it means. It's their book, after all. And the Jesus of the NT was not triune, not God's equal, in any version, and doesn't become God until the fourth century CE.

IF Jesus was God, he only had to say so clearly once ─ but instead, as I said, all five version expressly deny they're God (as I showed you) and never claim to be God.

Why would all four gospel Jesuses go into the garden and ask God to change [his] mind about the coming crucifixion part? Had any of them been God, that would have simply happened; instead God (as entirely distinct from Jesus) said, No, the plan for you to die now is going ahead. Why would the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew say on the Cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?"

The Tanakh is God as understood by the men who wrote it. It’s also a nationalistic, patriotic religious document finalized in Babylon after the devastating loss of the first temple and the Israelites homeland. It was a book for an Israelite audience!!!!!

Jesus was a “revelation” that God the Father is expressed in his Sons of various powers and authority. BUT, it’s very difficult to teach anything new to minds that have petrified the writings of mere holy men into the word of God!!!! Oneness can be plural manifestation.

 

[metis]

The Jewish followers of Jesus said he was for the Jews. Jesus said go into all the world not all of Israel who rejected him.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[Colt]

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matthew 28:19-20​

New International Version​

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age​

 

[Ajax]

Matthew 28:19-20​

New International Version​

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age​

This makes things even worse, especially when coming from the same author.
Did Jesus lie the first time, or did he change his mind later? What caused him to change his mind? And can a God change his mind?

By the way, the verse you quoted can not be found in older Greek and Latin manuscripts. Eusebius of Caesarea writes in almost all of his books written prior to 336 AD that Matthew 28:19 reads: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Matthew 28:19-20​

New International Version​

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age​

Heh... the Bible! It has something for everyone!

 

[Nakosis]

This makes things even worse, especially when coming from the same author.
Did Jesus lie the first time, or did he change his mind later? What caused him to change his mind? And can a God change his mind?

By the way, the verse you quoted can not be found in older Greek and Latin manuscripts. Eusebius of Caesarea writes in almost all of his books written prior to 336 AD that Matthew 28:19 reads: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

Matthew verse 28:19 likely based off of Mark 16:15.
Interesting that Mark 16:9-20 Itself was not part of earlier manuscripts.

Also this was added after Jesus died. Added by the ghost of Jesus? The "Great Commission" was not voiced by Jesus while he was alive iow.

 

[Ajax]

Matthew verse 28:19 likely based off of Mark 16:15.
Interesting that Mark 16:9-20 Itself was not part of earlier manuscripts.

Also this was added after Jesus died. Added by the ghost of Jesus? The "Great Commission" was not voiced by Jesus while he was alive iow.

Exactly... I fully agree.

 

[user4578]

Interesting that Mark 16:9-20 Itself was not part of earlier manuscripts.

This means a lot coming from someone who admits to not knowing little about the Bible. Oh wait you must have gotten some help there I think, critical armchair scholarship hard at work.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This means a lot coming from someone who admits to not knowing little about the Bible. Oh wait you must have gotten some help there I think, critical armchair scholarship hard at work.

So... IOW, you dislike @Nakosis as a person but agree with what he said?

 

[user4578]

agree with what he said

Must agree with everything op says.

 

[Nakosis]

This means a lot coming from someone who admits to not knowing little about the Bible. Oh wait you must have gotten some help there I think, critical armchair scholarship hard at work.

Not sure what you are going on about. What I've admitted to is knowing nothing about God.
Otherwise, I have read the Bible, read the gospel a few times. Would not claim to be an expert though.

Who do you think I got help from.
Here is a reference, not the one I used but you can find other sources as well.

Textual critics have identified two distinct alternative endings: the "Longer Ending" (verses 9–20) and the unversed "Shorter Ending" or "lost ending",which appear together in six Greek manuscripts, and in dozens of Ethiopic copies. Modern versions of the New Testament generally include the Longer Ending, but place it in brackets or otherwise format it to show that it was not part of the original text.
Mark 16 - Wikipedia

Here is another reference. I usually don't rely on one reference myself.

The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 16 - New International Version

 

[user4578]

Would not claim to be an expert though.

Whar was the topic again I forgot, I would have taken you as one to say well Jesus failed again, but apparently not. You enjoy art apparently.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Given that Paul was inspired by Jesus, Jesus is responsible for Paul's effort in starting the Christian movement. In any case, someone who has over one billion followers today, can hardly be called a failure.

A religion with a billion people certainly is impressive in human terms; still, every person who was proselytized to but they failed to convince does represent a failure on the part of the religion... as do all the people who the proselytizers wish they could have reached but didn't.

 

[Colt]

Heh... the Bible! It has something for everyone!

We agree! Good point! You can see the diverse claims that do conflict within the Bible. The nationalism of the Old Testament is FAR more destructive to the world than Donald Trump ever was! Its so bizarre!

 

[Colt]

This makes things even worse, especially when coming from the same author.
Did Jesus lie the first time, or did he change his mind later? What caused him to change his mind? And can a God change his mind?

By the way, the verse you quoted can not be found in older Greek and Latin manuscripts. Eusebius of Caesarea writes in almost all of his books written prior to 336 AD that Matthew 28:19 reads: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

No, the Jewish authors of the scriptures were still suffering from the chosen people delusion! They put words into Jesus' mouth!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We agree! Good point!

I'm not sure we agree as much as you think.

You can see the diverse claims that do conflict within the Bible. The nationalism of the Old Testament is FAR more destructive to the world than Donald Trump ever was! Its so bizarre!

And yet progressive Christians kept the destructive stuff in the Bible and still proclaimed it as "God's word."