Jesus Failed Right?

[Hermit Philosopher]

Faith is having trust in one’s beliefs

Humbly,
Hermit

 

[InChrist]

I don't know if this future event is true until it happens. Maybe never.

Well, that’s true. No one knows what the future holds or even much about the spiritual/eternal realm. I don’t think humans would know at all except for God’s revelation. I wouldn’t believe anyone, not even me. I think asking God alone for truth and guidance is the best.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don’t believe so. They are separate covenants. One for the Jews, the other for the nations. Do you see the Mosaic law for the Goyim? (I got it right this time!)

No, I think the Covenant with Israel is for Israel. But Paul didn't preach that Jewish believers needed to keep the law, did he?

What makes you think the New Covenant of Jeremiah is for the world? Who do you think Jeremiah is speaking to, if not Israel?

 

[blü 2]

The word "obviously". Your assumption that I haven't read the text is pretty lame.

Then perhaps you'd like to make a substantial and reasoned statement setting out your position on original sin and Ezekiel 18?

That would be helpful,

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't know if this future event is true until it happens. Maybe never.

forecasters say this year 2024 is going to be the worst for hurricanes ever.

Right, because the Jewish messiah (for Jews) never had anything to do with dying for our sins or any such thing. This was something Christians invented after the fact (i.e. of Jesus's death).

THe order of events went something like this:

1. 1st century Jews believed the messiah- the future and promised King of Israel- would throw off the Roman occupation and re-establish Israel as a sovereign nation as per the Davidic covenant
2. Jesus and/or his followers came to believe he was the messiah
3. oops, Jesus got crucified!
4. Jesus's followers re-invent what it means to be the messiah, since if Jesus is the messiah and Jesus is dead, it must be that the messiah wasn't supposed to defeat the Romans after all

Meanwhile Jews went on believing that the messiah was the future Davidic King who would re-establish Israel and fulfill the Davidic covenant... many to this day.

Go look up the word redemption and what it means.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I think the Covenant with Israel is for Israel. But Paul didn't preach that Jewish believers needed to keep the law, did he?

What makes you think the New Covenant of Jeremiah is for the world? Who do you think Jeremiah is speaking to, if not Israel?

What law do you preach or believe should be kept?

 

[YoursTrue]

I like the quote:

"Buzzards look for dead meat and eagles look for live meat and both birds find what they are looking for."

The application of that statement is simply that if you approach it as “I don’t believe” you will find anything that supports what you don’t believe” - even if it isn’t true.

I like the quote, thanks. It makes sense to me.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Go look up the word redemption and what it means.

I know what the word redemption means. Would you care to make an actual argument or point here? If you're hinting at the post-hoc invented notion of atonement then you're only making my point for me. Jesus and his disciples were Jews. They had a Jewish understanding of the messiah. When Jesus died, that completely contradicted the Jewish notion of the messiah and so they were obliged to engage in some theological fan fiction.

Which is what they did, eventually giving us the notions of incarnation and immaculate conception and atonement and, most importantly, that of a crucified messiah who dies for the sins of the world, contrary to the (very much alive) Jewish messiah who fulfills the Davidic covenant by expelling the Romans and re-establishing the Davidic kingship.

 

[YoursTrue]

I know what the word redemption means. Would you care to make an actual argument or point here? If you're hinting at the post-hoc invented notion of atonement then you're only making my point for me. Jesus and his disciples were Jews. They had a Jewish understanding of the messiah. When Jesus died, that completely contradicted the Jewish notion of the messiah and so they were obliged to engage in some theological fan fiction. Which is what they did, eventually giving us the notions of incarnation and immaculate conception and atonement and, most importantly, that of a dying messiah who dies for the sins of the world, contrary to the (very much alive) Jewish messiah who fulfills the Davidic covenant by expelling the Romans and re-establishing the Davidic kingship.

OK, what does the word redemption mean? It's easy to find.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

OK, what does the word redemption mean? It's easy to find.

Indeed, its easy to find, and if you want to know what it means, head over to Google. For myself, I'm not interested in playing games, but if you have a point or argument to make then by all means do so.

 

[YoursTrue]

I know what the word redemption means. Would you care to make an actual argument or point here? If you're hinting at the post-hoc invented notion of atonement then you're only making my point for me. Jesus and his disciples were Jews. They had a Jewish understanding of the messiah. When Jesus died, that completely contradicted the Jewish notion of the messiah and so they were obliged to engage in some theological fan fiction.

Which is what they did, eventually giving us the notions of incarnation and immaculate conception and atonement and, most importantly, that of a dying messiah who dies for the sins of the world, contrary to the (very much alive) Jewish messiah who fulfills the Davidic covenant by expelling the Romans and re-establishing the Davidic kingship.

You can make any argument you like. I point out what I know, believe or think. I hardly debate. If you want to believe the human race does not need redemption, you might offer your reasons why. However, based on my knowledge of what the Bible says and life itself, I believe otherwise.
https://scienceandsociety.duke.edu/...d,between two different population subgroups.

 

[YoursTrue]

Indeed, its easy to find, and if you want to know what it means, head over to Google. For myself, I'm not interested in playing games, but if you have a point or argument to make then by all means do so.

I made it. I'll say it again -- the human race needs redemption.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I made it. I'll say it again -- the human race needs redemption.

I'm not sure I disagree, I just don't see what that has do to with anything I've said here.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not sure I disagree, I just don't see what that has do to with anything I've said here.

The definition is in reference to redemption from sin. I believe if we can't agree that we, the human race, need redemption from sin we're in trouble spiritually.

 

[Kenny]

No, I think the Covenant with Israel is for Israel. But Paul didn't preach that Jewish believers needed to keep the law, did he?

So… we are talking about two Covenants. Paul was preaching the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant - the New Covenant - that was before the Mosaic Law and supersedes it. But I think you already know how Paul applied it. Gal 3 - He didn’t say the Law was bad…
Romans 7:12
So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

What makes you think the New Covenant of Jeremiah is for the world? Who do you think Jeremiah is speaking to, if not Israel?

I didn’t say the New Covenant of Jeremiah, I said the New Covenant of Abraham. That being said, the New Covenant, as added by Jeremiah, simply includes Israel for God has no exception of people. In Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) will all the nations be blessed. Israel first, and then the world. Both are included in the Abrahamic Covenant.

I love the image of the sacrifice of Isaac:

As Jesus said, “Abraham saw my day”.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I made it. I'll say it again -- the human race needs redemption.

The definition is in reference to redemption from sin. I believe if we can't agree that we, the human race, need redemption from sin we're in trouble spiritually.

You speak of these things, YoursTrue, as if they are absolute truth and not just your personal religious beliefs.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Well, yes, that is what the legend is. And they were all Jews, not Christians.

It wasn't "a matter of time." It is directly due to the ideas and missionary activities of Paul.

The animosity between the Paul camp and the James camp was palpable. When Paul was imprisoned in Rome, he lamented about how all the churches had abandoned him. But once he allowed the entrance of Hellenized Gentiles who did not keep the laws into the church, it avalanched into a new religion.

I'd like to thank you for sharing your religious beliefs in this thread. I think it provides a better perspective on Judaism and the Bible in this discussion.

 

[Niatero]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

He doesn't look to me like a good example to follow, but not for those reasons. It's because of his attitude and behavior in the gospel stories.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So… we are talking about two Covenants.

You may be. I'm not.

I'm only talking about one covenant -- the one between God and Israel, version 1.0 with Abraham, and version 2.0 with Moses.

I didn’t say the New Covenant of Jeremiah, I said the New Covenant of Abraham.

There is no "new covenant" mentioned in Genesis. There is only the covenant with Abraham. The only mention of any "new covenant" is in Jeremiah,, and has not yet taken place.

You have basically become incomprehensible to me. I have no clue what you mean.

 

[Ebionite]

Then perhaps you'd like to make a substantial and reasoned statement setting out your position on original sin and Ezekiel 18?

That would be helpful,

The issue was humanism. It connects to Rome via the Church and Paul's doctrine of original sin. There is an implicit disconnect between humans and the divine that is evident in the writings of Cicero and Blackstone.

This separation has a parallel in the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine is defective because of Paul's misrepresentation of David's sin. Romans 3, Psalm 51.