Jesus - First Born?

[Brian2]

What is an ETERNAL SON?

The Son who has always been and will always be.

 

[Soapy]

The conversation went like this:
John 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

To me this shows that Jesus agreed with what Thomas had said.


A few other verses about the pre existence of Jesus:

John 3:12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

John 6:32 Jesus then said to them,:“Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is vhe who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

John 8: 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 16: 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

Jesus never said that he came from Heaven. Those words, ‘came from Heaven’ or ‘Come down from Heaven’, were ADDED by Trinitarians who wanted to reinforce the false claim that Jesus was pre-existent.

As a point of fact, they made a mistake when they claimed that Jesus said, ‘What if you see the son of man ascending to where he was before’.

I’m sure you know and should agree that ‘The Son of Man’ DID NOT COME FROM HEAVEN!!

And as for ‘No one has ascended INTO HEAVEN except he who first descended FROM HEAVEN’. The true saying is:

• ‘No one has ascended into Heaven except he who first DESCENDED’
• ‘No one has ascended (Been raised up) except he who first descended (into the grave - Died)’

This is evident from what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus: that no one can see the kingdom of heaven unless he bd first REBORN. Even Jesus Christ could not ascend into Heaven unless he had not first DIED (descended into the grave) and then ascended BACK UP out of the grave: A seed cannot germinate and grow unless it first dies and is planted!!!

There is no premise for Jesus to say such a thing about him coming from Heaven. His words are that ‘GOD sent him’ and ‘I was sent by the Father’. This ‘SENDING’ is after he was baptised and anointed with the spirit of God.

God empowered Jesus to carry out the great commission. That’s what happens when the man chosen by the king is equipped for the commission. If Jesus is God then why would he need to be ‘Anointed with holy Spirit and power’ (acts 10:38)?

‘Jesus - who you say is God’ was Sent by God’… ‘God sent God!!! That makes TWO GODS!!

 

[Soapy]

The Son who has always been and will always be.

If a Son is the begotten one of his Father then how can that Son exist before the Father begot him?

 

[Soapy]

Brian2 said:

• What I actually mean is that the Son of God stepped down into creation and became a man

The Son of God stepped down from being God… but remained being God!!!???

 

[amazing grace]

The Father is not the Son either but that does not stop them from being, together, one thing.
You can stand by what you quoted but I also stand by what you quoted,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and I say that because of the grammar it cannot mean one in harmony, and you ignore the grammar.
"I and the Father are one" does not automatically mean in harmony and when we look at the grammar it does not mean that.

Explain what exactly you mean by one "thing"?
"I and the Father are one" does not mean the same entity/being.

Well actually Jesus was teaching about Himself being one with the Father and being in the Father and being the Son who came down from heaven, from His Father etc etc.
I hear JWs also try to answer John 20:28, and they have a variety of responses,,,,,,,,,,,, one being that Thomas was shouting an exclamation of surprise, shock "My Lord and My God!!!" But basically they are like you and have no answer,,,,,,,,,,,,, but the answer lies in the fact that their understanding of Jesus is flawed, as is yours.

I have an answer and I gave an answer and I don't believe that Thomas was shouting an exclamation of surprise but honoring the Son as Lord and honoring God as the one who raised him from the dead. Thomas did not believe Jesus was God.

Jesus, as YHWH through whom all things were created, had a God only when He became a man, and from then on.

What or who was Jesus before he "became a man"? Jesus had a God from the time he was born - that God was his Father, the only true God.

He was conceived in Mary as a man and that means that the life which was in the Father was put into Mary at that conception. That was not a creation, that was a conception, the transference of a life to grow in a womb.

From what and where did you get that understanding?

You seem to use the New World Translation, which is not the most accurate of translations, imo.
And yes God created, there is nothing wrong with that. God created all things through the pre human Jesus, the Son who has been with Him from eternity and who is exactly like Him.
In the beginning was the Logos. The phrase "the Logos" indicates a person, not a thing, and later on in the chapter we see that there actually was life in the Logos and He is called God.
The NWT probably doesn't help your view of Jesus, as they have a different view.

I basically use the ESV. The KJV says basically the same thing as the ESV - Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. - Jesus taught and gave God the credit for creation and Gen. 1:1 says God created the heavens and the earth. Yes, in the beginning was the logos - God's word; i.e. God SAID . . . logos does not carry the meaning of a person . . . the logos became flesh in and through the person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. If the phrase "the logos" indicated a person then every other place where logos is used would indicate a person NOT just in John 1:1.

BTW what do you make of this verse?
Mal 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
I see the first messenger as John the Baptist who prepares the way before YHWH (me) and that John was preparing the way before Jesus, the Lord they were seeking, and who came to His Temple. The Temple in Jerusalem,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, making Jesus God, since it was His Temple, or was it the temple of His body, which shows He came to earth to a body and did not just start off in the body.

Quoted in Matt. 11:10 Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way for you.; In Mark 1:2 Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way the voice of one crying in the wilderness Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (Isaiah 40:3) and Luke 7:27 Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you. Jesus said this was John the Baptist. These are not word for word quotes and in these passages John prepared the way for Jesus Christ, the Lord they were seeking. I see that the messenger is preparing the way for Jesus who is coming in the name of God his Father (John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name,)
- not that they are one "thing". God did not come to earth and enter the womb of Mary. Mary did not change God's diapers and NEVER thought that she was going to be giving birth to God. Isn't even the thought ridiculous?

 

[Soapy]

Anointed one.

Quite right. Jesus BECAME ‘the Christ’ after he was anointed. That was when ‘made to be both Lord and Christ’ BY GOD.

Prior to this event Jesus had done nothing that marked him out as anything special. That is why a few days later, on the Sabbath, in the Synagogue, Jesus stood up, found a place in the scroll and read out:

• “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,” (Luke 4:18)

Then he said:

• “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:21)

This ties in with Isaiah 42:1:

• ‘This is my Servant; my chosen one in whom I am well pleased. I will put my Spirit on him and he shall bring justice to the nations”

and:

• “…God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)

GOD anointed Jesus of Nazareth with His Spirit and this gave Jesus of Nazareth the power to perform the miracles that he did… GOD was in ‘Christ’ enabling Jesus of Nazareth to ‘do good and heal all who [came to him and believed by Faith] who were under power of the devil.

Jesus rules all of God's creation and that includes the earth, and not just Israel.

Jesus rules all of God’s creation???

Interesting!!

 

[amazing grace]

The conversation went like this:
John 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

To me this shows that Jesus agreed with what Thomas had said.

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas not because Jesus knew himself to be God - it can be understood in the light of recognition of Jesus as Lord and recognition that God raised him from the dead - Thomas honoring both Jesus and God. Or it can be understood as honor given to Jesus as God's anointed Messiah. Not because Jesus knew himself to be God and this fact had finally dawned on Thomas! Just two verses later in v31. John tells us that "these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." Saying that Thomas was worshipping Jesus as Almighty God is to directly contradict John's own stated purpose for writing his gospel.

A few other verses about the pre existence of Jesus:

John 3:12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

This probably will be taken with a grain of salt and won't be believed because most people do not take the time to actually study on their own but these notes are from Bullinger's Companion Bible and make a good case for the fact that Jesus' speaking ends at verse 12 and John begins with verse 13. In fact, Bullinger lists seven different reasons for Jesus’ talking ending at verse 13. Verses 14 and 16 agree with this entirely.

Bullinger’s seven reasons are:

1. Because the past tense of the Greek verbs that follow verse 12 indicate completed events.
2. Because the expression “only begotten Son” is not used by the Lord of himself but is used by John describing the Lord (John 1:14, 18, John 3:16, 8; 1 John 4:9).
3. Because “in the name of” (John 3:18, using the Greek word en) is not used by the Lord, but by John (John 1:12, John 2:23;1 John 5:13)
4. Because to “do the truth” occurs elsewhere only in 1 John 1:6.
5. Because “who is in heaven” (v. 13) points to the fact that the Lord had already ascended at the time John wrote his gospel. (Most scholars believe that the gospels were written between AD50 and 90. The Gospels were written after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The exact dating is difficult but they were all published in a similar timeframe---some years after Christ's death and resurrection but while the eyewitness to his ministry on earth still lived. info from biblestudytools.com topical studies when-were-the-gospels-written)
6. Because the word “lifted up” refers both to the sufferings John 3:14 and to “the glory which should follow” John 8:28; Acts 2:33; Acts 5:31.
7. Because the break at verse 13 accords best with the context, as shown by the structure of the section. E.W. Bullinger Companion Bible, 1519 (Bullinger was a Trinitarian) So when Jesus ascended to heaven - no one else had ascended and when something was said to have come from God or come from heaven if God was its source.

John 6:32 Jesus then said to them,:“Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is vhe who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Moses did not give them the true bread from heaven but God gives the true bread from heaven for the bread of God is he (Jesus) who comes down from heaven (came from God - God sent him) and gives life to the world --- Jesus is the true bread of life-----I have come down from heaven (came from God - God sent him) not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me --- pretty self explanatory.

John 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

What is the context - the resurrection. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, (resurrected to life) so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven (came from God), not like the bread the fathers ate and died. (manna sent from God) Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. The disciples did not understand . . . Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before. God sent His Son therefore he was sent from God and would be resurrected to life and return to God.

John 8: 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

He said to them, "You are from below (the fallen sinful world); I am from above (came from God, sent by God). You are of this world (the fallen sinful world); I am not of this world. (the fallen sinful world)

John 16: 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

Yep, we are to believe that he came from God and Jesus reiterates that he came from the Father (the only true God) and that's how he came into the world (God sent him) and upon his death and resurrection he would be leaving the world and going to the Father.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus never said that he came from Heaven. Those words, ‘came from Heaven’ or ‘Come down from Heaven’, were ADDED by Trinitarians who wanted to reinforce the false claim that Jesus was pre-existent.

OK so you have certain beliefs and have decided that because of those beliefs you are entitled to say the Bible is wrong wherever it disagrees with your beliefs.

As a point of fact, they made a mistake when they claimed that Jesus said, ‘What if you see the son of man ascending to where he was before’.

I’m sure you know and should agree that ‘The Son of Man’ DID NOT COME FROM HEAVEN!!

The Son of Man did ascend to heaven and the Son of Man is none other than the prehuman Jesus who was in heaven and came down to become the Son of Man.

And as for ‘No one has ascended INTO HEAVEN except he who first descended FROM HEAVEN’. The true saying is:

• ‘No one has ascended into Heaven except he who first DESCENDED’
• ‘No one has ascended (Been raised up) except he who first descended (into the grave - Died)’

This is evident from what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus: that no one can see the kingdom of heaven unless he bd first REBORN. Even Jesus Christ could not ascend into Heaven unless he had not first DIED (descended into the grave) and then ascended BACK UP out of the grave: A seed cannot germinate and grow unless it first dies and is planted!!!

There is no premise for Jesus to say such a thing about him coming from Heaven. His words are that ‘GOD sent him’ and ‘I was sent by the Father’. This ‘SENDING’ is after he was baptised and anointed with the spirit of God.

But the Bible in the passages I quoted tells us that God sent the Son from heaven.

God empowered Jesus to carry out the great commission. That’s what happens when the man chosen by the king is equipped for the commission. If Jesus is God then why would he need to be ‘Anointed with holy Spirit and power’ (acts 10:38)?

‘Jesus - who you say is God’ was Sent by God’… ‘God sent God!!! That makes TWO GODS!!

That sounds like God sending the Angel of His Presence to the bush.

 

[Soapy]

OK so you have certain beliefs and have decided that because of those beliefs you are entitled to say the Bible is wrong wherever it disagrees with your beliefs.

Brian2, your ideology is fracturing.
@AmazingGrace just told you the same as I did - that Jesus never said that he ‘came from Heaven’…

Jesus always says that the Father sent him. And this sending was after he had been anointed with the spirit of God which empowered him. Note that Jesus did nothing prior to being anointed. He had not the power nor the authority to do God’s work so he spent his time until he was called, LEARNING and BEING TAUGHT by God.
Hence, Jesus says:

• ‘The things you see me do - the things you hear me say - ARE NOT MINE BUT OF HIM WHO SENT ME.’ (Paraphrased)

Jesus always GLORIFIES GOD… GLORIFIES THE FATHER. He prays secretively to the Father before carrying out a miracle because because the miracle is OF THE FATHER… ‘it is because of [the ‘SPIRIT OF’ the Father working in me!’, he says… which is the what being anointed allows him to benefit from. This is seen also by way of the apostles carrying out miracles AFTER they were anointed with the spirit of God at Pentecost.

The Son of Man did ascend to heaven and the Son of Man is none other than the prehuman Jesus who was in heaven and came down to become the Son of Man.

‘The Son of Man’ was never ‘IN HEAVEN’ before he was born. The Son of Man ASCENDED into Heaven after first DESCENDING into the Grave.

But the Bible in the passages I quoted tells us that God sent the Son from heaven.

God did not send the Son FROM HEAVEN. You keep saying that the Son is God and then say that God sent the Son - you don’t see that you are saying that God sent God, which is an impossibility!

But also, God sent the Spirit of God into the hearts of the believers. Yet, to you (though you haven’t said it yet!) that is also a ‘God sent God’ in your language.

So, Brian2, who is this ‘Master God’ who sends two other Gods into the created world?

And how is it that one lesser God ‘takes of what is his and gives it to another’ even lesser god?

That sounds like God sending the Angel of His Presence to the bush.

Now you say that your Jesus-God is an angel. And we know and agree (yes?) that an angel is a created Being!!

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, your ideology is fracturing.
@AmazingGrace just told you the same as I did - that Jesus never said that he ‘came from Heaven’…

You read in the passages I quoted that Jesus said that He came from heaven, and then you tell me that Jesus never said that He came from heaven.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus did not rebuke Thomas not because Jesus knew himself to be God - it can be understood in the light of recognition of Jesus as Lord and recognition that God raised him from the dead - Thomas honoring both Jesus and God. Or it can be understood as honor given to Jesus as God's anointed Messiah. Not because Jesus knew himself to be God and this fact had finally dawned on Thomas! Just two verses later in v31. John tells us that "these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." Saying that Thomas was worshipping Jesus as Almighty God is to directly contradict John's own stated purpose for writing his gospel.

John 20:31 does not contradict Jesus Godhood as stated by Thomas, it just shows us what sort of Son of God Jesus was claiming to be, the sort that is equal in nature to His Father.

This probably will be taken with a grain of salt and won't be believed because most people do not take the time to actually study on their own but these notes are from Bullinger's Companion Bible and make a good case for the fact that Jesus' speaking ends at verse 12 and John begins with verse 13. In fact, Bullinger lists seven different reasons for Jesus’ talking ending at verse 13. Verses 14 and 16 agree with this entirely.

Bullinger’s seven reasons are:

1. Because the past tense of the Greek verbs that follow verse 12 indicate completed events.
2. Because the expression “only begotten Son” is not used by the Lord of himself but is used by John describing the Lord (John 1:14, 18, John 3:16, 8; 1 John 4:9).
3. Because “in the name of” (John 3:18, using the Greek word en) is not used by the Lord, but by John (John 1:12, John 2:23;1 John 5:13)
4. Because to “do the truth” occurs elsewhere only in 1 John 1:6.
5. Because “who is in heaven” (v. 13) points to the fact that the Lord had already ascended at the time John wrote his gospel. (Most scholars believe that the gospels were written between AD50 and 90. The Gospels were written after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The exact dating is difficult but they were all published in a similar timeframe---some years after Christ's death and resurrection but while the eyewitness to his ministry on earth still lived. info from biblestudytools.com topical studies when-were-the-gospels-written)
6. Because the word “lifted up” refers both to the sufferings John 3:14 and to “the glory which should follow” John 8:28; Acts 2:33; Acts 5:31.
7. Because the break at verse 13 accords best with the context, as shown by the structure of the section. E.W. Bullinger Companion Bible, 1519 (Bullinger was a Trinitarian) So when Jesus ascended to heaven - no one else had ascended and when something was said to have come from God or come from heaven if God was its source.

I would say that after verse 15 it may not be Jesus speaking. Verse 13 goes with verse 12 as a logical sequence in a flow of speaking and Verse 14 says that the Son of Man must be lifted up, future tense.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

The sentence (verse 13) is a tough one to understand and could be understood in more than one way anyway, but does tell us that the Son of Man did descend from heaven, even if I take it as John speaking after the ascension.

Moses did not give them the true bread from heaven but God gives the true bread from heaven for the bread of God is he (Jesus) who comes down from heaven (came from God - God sent him) and gives life to the world --- Jesus is the true bread of life-----I have come down from heaven (came from God - God sent him) not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me --- pretty self explanatory.

John 6:32 Jesus then said to them,:“Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

I would have thought it was pretty self explanatory also. And yes I notice that you have emphasised that the Father sent the true bread from heaven. Does that mean that the true bread from heaven was not in heaven and did not come down from heaven?

What is the context - the resurrection. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, (resurrected to life) so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven (came from God), not like the bread the fathers ate and died. (manna sent from God) Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. The disciples did not understand . . . Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before. God sent His Son therefore he was sent from God and would be resurrected to life and return to God.

The context is the disciples seeing the Son of Man ascend to heaven, where He was before.
He came from heaven, from God, He returned to heaven, to God.
Are you saying that what you said shows that Jesus did not have a pre human existence in heaven?

He said to them, "You are from below (the fallen sinful world); I am from above (came from God, sent by God). You are of this world (the fallen sinful world); I am not of this world. (the fallen sinful world)

OK fair enough, it is not necessarily about the pre existence of Jesus in heaven.

Yep, we are to believe that he came from God and Jesus reiterates that he came from the Father (the only true God) and that's how he came into the world (God sent him) and upon his death and resurrection he would be leaving the world and going to the Father.

John 16: 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

It sounds to me like you have changed your mind and now believe what Jesus said, that He came into the world from God His Father and was going to return to there,,,,,,,,,,,,, ascending to where He was.
But somehow I doubt that you have changed your mind. I just cannot see, from what you said, that you have said anything to show that Jesus did not have a pre existence in heaven with His Father and in the glory of His Father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, as He tells us He had.

 

[amazing grace]

John 20:31 does not contradict Jesus Godhood as stated by Thomas, it just shows us what sort of Son of God Jesus was claiming to be, the sort that is equal in nature to His Father.

You are using Thomas' statement to infer that Jesus is God. John clearly states the purpose of his gospel is to believe that Jesus is the Christ - the anointed of God, the Messiah, the Son of God NOT God the Son. Jesus is God's anointed - if Jesus is God, who anointed him

I would say that after verse 15 it may not be Jesus speaking. Verse 13 goes with verse 12 as a logical sequence in a flow of speaking and Verse 14 says that the Son of Man must be lifted up, future tense.

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

The sentence (verse 13) is a tough one to understand and could be understood in more than one way anyway, but does tell us that the Son of Man did descend from heaven, even if I take it as John speaking after the ascension.

Okay. Yes, Jesus did descend from heaven - it carries the same meaning as "was sent from God" as in John 3:34 - For he whom God has sent utters the words of God for he (God) gives the Spirit without measure. - This in no way implies that "God descended from heaven nor that Jesus preexisted and descended from heaven. (Deut. 18:18 reiterates the fact that Jesus would speak the words God commanded him to speak)
It carries the same meaning as "came from God" as in John 3:2 when Nicodemus said - Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him. - This in no way implied that Nicodemus thought Jesus was God descended from heaven as a man. (Acts 2:22 reiterates that God did the works through Jesus of Nazareth)

John 6:32 Jesus then said to them,:“Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

I would have thought it was pretty self explanatory also. And yes I notice that you have emphasised that the Father sent the true bread from heaven. Does that mean that the true bread from heaven was not in heaven and did not come down from heaven?

Again, the bread of God is he (Jesus, the Son of God) who comes down from heaven . . . For I have come down from heaven - it carries the same meaning as the true bread of God is he (Jesus) who was sent from God or who came from God if fact ending with - him (God) who sent me. And we know how Jesus was sent and it had nothing to do with him preexisting.

The context is the disciples seeing the Son of Man ascend to heaven, where He was before.
He came from heaven, from God, He returned to heaven, to God.
Are you saying that what you said shows that Jesus did not have a pre human existence in heaven?

"to where he was before" - Again, you believe that Jesus literally preexisted in heaven before he was sent - I believe that Jesus conceptually preexisted in the mind and plan of God in heaven before he was sent. IOW, the works of God exist in his plans and foreknowledge and come to exist literally as his plans are fulfilled. Things in the mind of God do not literally exist until his plans regarding them are fulfilled. And again, no, I do not believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence in heaven. What is a prehuman - who or what did Jesus exist as?

OK fair enough, it is not necessarily about the pre existence of Jesus in heaven.

John 16: 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

It sounds to me like you have changed your mind and now believe what Jesus said, that He came into the world from God His Father and was going to return to there,,,,,,,,,,,,, ascending to where He was.
But somehow I doubt that you have changed your mind. I just cannot see, from what you said, that you have said anything to show that Jesus did not have a pre existence in heaven with His Father and in the glory of His Father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, as He tells us He had.

I have never denied the fact that Jesus came into the world from God his Father nor that he was going to return to God his Father upon his resurrection. I deny the fact that Jesus literally preexisted before he came from God, before God sent him via his conception and birth.

Were you going to respond to my post # 185? It's okay if you don't . . .

 

[Brian2]

This probably will be taken with a grain of salt and won't be believed because most people do not take the time to actually study on their own but these notes are from Bullinger's Companion Bible and make a good case for the fact that Jesus' speaking ends at verse 12 and John begins with verse 13. In fact, Bullinger lists seven different reasons for Jesus’ talking ending at verse 13. Verses 14 and 16 agree with this entirely.

I have a few more pre existence verses for you.
John 9:38“Lord, I believe,” he said. And he worshiped Jesus. 39Then Jesus declared, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind.”

John 1:9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.…

John 1:17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

Was God wanting to confuse us all with so many passages about the pre existence of Jesus? I believe the passages and you want to say they mean something else than what they say.

 

[Brian2]

If a Son is the begotten one of his Father then how can that Son exist before the Father begot him?

In timelessness there is no "before". The life that the Son has comes from His Father.

 

[Brian2]

• What I actually mean is that the Son of God stepped down into creation and became a man

The Son of God stepped down from being God… but remained being God!!!???

You misunderstand or misquote what I said.

 

[Brian2]

Explain what exactly you mean by one "thing"?
"I and the Father are one" does not mean the same entity/being.

It does not mean "in harmony".
It is one of those places where we can see the unity of the Father and Son, unity of what they are. It is easy to see that they are distinct persons, and this shows they are one thing, and imo that means united in one, as one God. Something like a husband and wife are united as the one flesh during sex.

I have an answer and I gave an answer and I don't believe that Thomas was shouting an exclamation of surprise but honoring the Son as Lord and honoring God as the one who raised him from the dead. Thomas did not believe Jesus was God.

Yes you gave an answer, but Thomas was speaking to Jesus and not praying to God, and that is how Jesus could answer him.

What or who was Jesus before he "became a man"? Jesus had a God from the time he was born - that God was his Father, the only true God.

The Word, the Son of God who was with and in God in the beginning (beginning of all things, including time) and was the exact image of God.
They were companions, partners, equals, one the Father and one the Son, and joined in and by the one Spirit.

Zechariah 13:7Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, against the man who is My Companion, declares the LORD of Hosts. Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn My hand against the little ones.

From what and where did you get that understanding?

That is just what conception is. Life comes from the parents and grows in the womb. The life given Adam and Eve has come down to us, like a flame that grows bigger. Same with the animals and plants. It is not God creating new plants or animals all the time. Creation ended on the 6th day.
Heb 7:10 For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.

I basically use the ESV. The KJV says basically the same thing as the ESV - Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. - Jesus taught and gave God the credit for creation and Gen. 1:1 says God created the heavens and the earth. Yes, in the beginning was the logos - God's word; i.e. God SAID . . . logos does not carry the meaning of a person . . . the logos became flesh in and through the person of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. If the phrase "the logos" indicated a person then every other place where logos is used would indicate a person NOT just in John 1:1.

I use a variety of translations. I prefer the ESV to the NIV and so have been using the ESV a fair bit recently.
"The Word" in John 1:1 I am told indicates a person, not a thing, just as "the God" (with the definite article) indicated God in John 1:1 "with the God".
"and the Word was God" (no definite article) (John 1:1) imo shows that the Word was exactly like "the God".
This exactly like includes being alive, as John 1:4 says "in Him was life".
"God said" does not mean that God's Word was not a person.
I think John 1 is special with relation to the use of Logos and that can be seen in the grammar and what is said about the Logos both there are further down in Chapter 1. (eg John 1:10)

Quoted in Matt. 11:10 Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way for you.; In Mark 1:2 Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way the voice of one crying in the wilderness Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (Isaiah 40:3) and Luke 7:27 Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you. Jesus said this was John the Baptist. These are not word for word quotes and in these passages John prepared the way for Jesus Christ, the Lord they were seeking. I see that the messenger is preparing the way for Jesus who is coming in the name of God his Father (John 5:43 I have come in my Father's name,)
- not that they are one "thing". God did not come to earth and enter the womb of Mary. Mary did not change God's diapers and NEVER thought that she was going to be giving birth to God. Isn't even the thought ridiculous?

I think trinitarians go overboard in they way they speak. I don't think rhetoric like "Mary is the mother of God" helps.
But the Son of God, the Word, a spirit, was joined to the flesh of Mary and became a man.

 

[Brian2]

Quite right. Jesus BECAME ‘the Christ’ after he was anointed. That was when ‘made to be both Lord and Christ’ BY GOD.

Jesus was born both Lord and Christ.
Luke 2: 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with great fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

 

[amazing grace]

I have a few more pre existence verses for you.
John 9:38“Lord, I believe,” he said. And he worshiped Jesus. 39Then Jesus declared, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind.”

I see no preexistence in this verse.

John 1:9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.…

I see no preexistence in this verse.

John 1:17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

I also do not see any preexistence in this verse. Yes, this verse is translated in the ESV in this manner. So, in reading it this way we have: No one has ever seen God but God who is at God the Father's side . . . I even read some translations that read "the begotten God"!!!
The HCSB translation is good: No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son— the One who is at the Father’s side— He has revealed Him.
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, has perfectly shown us, revealed to us, declared to us, who God is.

I don't know if this was added to your post after I had hit reply but it wasn't there before:

You said: Was God wanting to confuse us all with so many passages about the pre existence of Jesus? I believe the passages and you want to say they mean something else than what they say.

Mostly only those who believe in the Trinity doctrine see a preexistence in the verses you have brought up.

 

[Brian2]

You are using Thomas' statement to infer that Jesus is God. John clearly states the purpose of his gospel is to believe that Jesus is the Christ - the anointed of God, the Messiah, the Son of God NOT God the Son. Jesus is God's anointed - if Jesus is God, who anointed him

I see Thomas calling Jesus "My Lord and My God". I am not inferring anything. Jesus was the God of Thomas and he finally believed that.
That does not mean that Jesus is the Father of course, it is just that Thomas realised, through the truth of the resurrection, that all the things he had learned about Jesus over the previous years were true.

Okay. Yes, Jesus did descend from heaven - it carries the same meaning as "was sent from God" as in John 3:34 - For he whom God has sent utters the words of God for he (God) gives the Spirit without measure. - This in no way implies that "God descended from heaven nor that Jesus preexisted and descended from heaven. (Deut. 18:18 reiterates the fact that Jesus would speak the words God commanded him to speak)
It carries the same meaning as "came from God" as in John 3:2 when Nicodemus said - Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him. - This in no way implied that Nicodemus thought Jesus was God descended from heaven as a man. (Acts 2:22 reiterates that God did the works through Jesus of Nazareth)

One passage spoken by Jesus saying He came from God may mean the same as what you reference Nicodemus saying. But there are many passages with Jesus saying He not only came from God but came from heaven and is going back to heaven, and there are many passages about all things having being made through Him etc.
Open your eyes to the forest.

Again, the bread of God is he (Jesus, the Son of God) who comes down from heaven . . . For I have come down from heaven - it carries the same meaning as the true bread of God is he (Jesus) who was sent from God or who came from God if fact ending with - him (God) who sent me. And we know how Jesus was sent and it had nothing to do with him preexisting.

But now we know that Jesus was in heaven and that He was sent from heaven. So it shows Jesus pre existence in heaven,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just as going back to heaven shows that and having glory in heaven with God before the foundation of the world show that also.

"to where he was before" - Again, you believe that Jesus literally preexisted in heaven before he was sent - I believe that Jesus conceptually preexisted in the mind and plan of God in heaven before he was sent. IOW, the works of God exist in his plans and foreknowledge and come to exist literally as his plans are fulfilled. Things in the mind of God do not literally exist until his plans regarding them are fulfilled. And again, no, I do not believe that Jesus had a prehuman existence in heaven. What is a prehuman - who or what did Jesus exist as?

Jesus existed as a spirit, in the form of God, who did not count equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself and took the form of a servant and became a man.

I have never denied the fact that Jesus came into the world from God his Father nor that he was going to return to God his Father upon his resurrection. I deny the fact that Jesus literally preexisted before he came from God, before God sent him via his conception and birth.

The world was made through the Son (Heb 1)
John 1:9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people3 did not receive him.

Really? He only existed in the mind of God even though He made the world?

When we think of the Logos we should not be imagining a human, the Logos was a spirit and Jesus said:

John 6:62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before? 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Yes He said that He was going to go back to heaven, after having come from heaven. (amazingly there are people who believe in Jesus but say that He did not exist in heaven before becoming a man, incredible I know).............. but I digress, Jesus said that the words He spoke are spirit and life. God is spirit also and God is love (as of course the Son is) This spirit stuff is different to what we know in the physical universe and so when we hear that God made things through His Word that does not mean that He made things through sounds that came out of His mouth.

 

[Brian2]

I see no preexistence in this verse.

So Jesus says, "I came into this world" and you think that cannot be true, He was never anywhere else.
It is the multitude of times we have passages like this and passages about the pre human Jesus there at the creation and you want to believe that it is all something that nobody knows about, existence in the mind of God, creating in the mind of God no doubt. We do have this existence in the mind of God, but that is in the context of foreordained, foreknow etc. The passages about Jesus are not plainly about ordaining, knowing etc before someone or something really exists. They are either about a real Jesus preexisting or they are God purposely confusing us, and God does not do that even if Satan does.
And really it must be something that you have chosen to believe over the plain meaning of the passages and I would guess it is because you don't understand the trinity, and think that you should be able to understand God or it is not true.
https://biblehub.com/greek/5185.htm

I see no preexistence in this verse.

He came into the world.
The world was made by Him.
No pre existence.
Hmmm. Weird.

Mostly only those who believe in the Trinity doctrine see a preexistence in the verses you have brought up.

Well that is pretty much all of Christianity. JWs also see it that way. Modalists also who say Jesus is one of the ways God expresses Himself, would also see a pre existence in those verses.
Any non Christian off the street would also see a pre existence in most of the verses I have brought up. (Some are a bit iffy however).

From this site: Pre-existence of Christ - Wikipedia.

Denial of the doctrine[edit]​

Throughout history there have been various groups and individuals believing that Jesus' existence began when he was conceived.[34] Those who consider themselves Christians while denying the pre-existence of Christ can be broadly divided into two streams.

First, there are those who nevertheless accept the virgin birth. This includes Socinians,[35] and early Unitarians such as John Biddle,[36] and Nathaniel Lardner.[37] Today the view is primarily held by Christadelphians.[38] These groups typically consider that Christ is prophesied and foreshadowed in the Old Testament, but did not exist prior to his birth.[39]

Second, there are those who also deny the virgin birth. This includes Ebionites and later Unitarians, such as Joseph Priestley,[40][41][42] and Thomas Jefferson.[43][44] This view is often described as adoptionism, and in the 19th century was also called psilanthropism. Samuel Taylor Coleridge described himself as having once been a psilanthropist, believing Jesus to be the "real son of Joseph."[45] Friedrich Schleiermacher, sometimes called "the father of liberal theology",[46] was one of many German theologians who departed from the idea of personal ontological pre-existence of Christ, teaching that "Christ was not God but was created as the ideal and perfect man whose sinlessness constituted his divinity."[46] Similarly, Albrecht Ritschl rejected the pre-existence of Christ, asserting that Christ was the "Son of God" only in the sense that "God had revealed himself in Christ"[46] and Christ "accomplished a religious and ethical work in us which only God could have done."[46] Later, Rudolf Bultmann described the pre-existence of Christ as "not only irrational but utterly meaningless."[47]