Jesus - First Born?

[Oeste]

....Continued

I thought it might help is I post another encomium. This is not "biblical", it's not about "Wisdom", and it's certainly not inspired, but it's the best I can do.


Beauty

Her lips, blessed with the hues of blossoming flowers, offer the sweet nectar of divine poetry. They part like petals unfurling, forming words that blossom in the hearts of all who have the privilege to hear them. Her smile, radiant as a field of wildflowers, exudes a warmth that kindles the fires of joy within all souls that encounter her presence.​

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Her skin, velvety and lustrous, mirrors the resplendent heavens above. It bears the gentle touch of moonlight, caressing her with a soft luminosity that rivals the twinkling of stars. Each step she takes upon the earth leaves an indelible mark, as if she were a heavenly body walking among mortals.​

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Her teeth, pearls of purest ivory, gleam with a radiance that rivals the gleaming white foam of crashing waves. As she speaks, her voice resonates like the song of the sirens, enchanting all who hear it. It is as if the sea itself has granted her the power to captivate hearts with every syllable she utters.​

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When she walks, the earth itself seems to sway in synchrony with her grace. Her movements flow like the ebb and flow of the tides, and the rhythm of her steps echoes the crashing of waves upon the shore. Her presence is an oceanic symphony, enchanting all who bear witness to her ethereal dance.​

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In this woman, the celestial and the terrestrial converge, intertwining in a harmonious union that defies mortal comprehension. She is a divine tapestry woven with threads of heavenly light, earthly beauty, and the ebb and flow of the nautical realm. Her allure is an invitation to transcend the mundane and embrace the boundless wonders of the universe.​

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Oh, radiant muse, how fortunate we are to glimpse such celestial enchantment in human form. May her splendor continue to illuminate the world, a beacon of grace, and an everlasting reminder of the infinite beauty that resides both in the heavens above and within the depths of our souls.​

Now I may say this encomium (metaphoric praise) is about someone I know... girlfriend, wife, cousin, neighbor... It doesn't matter. It's simply praise about "Beauty" and can be applied to anyone.

But let's go further. I not only claim Beauty applies metaphorically to my girlfriend, but that it literally applies to her. Yes, her teeth actually gleam with the foam of crashing waves, her voice is indistinguishable from the sound of gentle sirens, and the earth itself literally sways in synchrony with every step she makes. In fact, if we just study her, we could learn a lot about the ocean, moon or stars. So the attributes of Beauty are no longer metaphoric, but can be literally applied to my girlfriend.

My friends object, pointing out my girlfriend cannot even find her lost teeth, her voice sounds more like fingernails across a blackboard than that of gentle sirens, and the only reason the earth seems to sway with her movements is because she weights 600 pounds!

To literally apply the attributes of this Beauty to her would be absurd. How can she have teeth of pure ivory when she can't even find them in the morning?

JW's do much the same with Proverbs. Proverbs tells us Wisdom is a woman that cries in the streets, and yet you tell us it means Jesus was literally created. As you said earlier, the notion that Proverbs 8 means Jesus literally born a woman is absurd, so the notion that Jesus was literally created because Wisdom was "birthed" is equally as absurd.

It remains absurd if we apply our exegesis consistently. You can pretty much make Proverbs 8 say anything you want if you like to "proof-text".

HTH

 

[Brian2]

I ‘love’ the way you say that Jesus is equal to God - and then say that Jesus IS God!

You don’t see that you express a conundrum - a paradox - a confusion - a contradiction - a lie!!!

You are STATING that Jesus is not God and then claiming that Jesus is God!!

Something that IS, cannot be described as being EQUAL to what it IS!

It is no wonder that even trinity states that’s it’s ideology is INCOMPREHENSIBLE!

If you don’t agree then please give an example of something that is equal to what it is!

When the term God is used in the New Testament it usually refers to the Father, and that is what I mean when I say the Jesus is equal to God. I mean that the Son is equal to the Father. And this equality is equality of nature. That is the sort of Son He is, He is not a created being but has the same nature as His Father.
Having this God nature makes the Son equally Divine with His Father.
If the Son was not in the Father and the Father was not in the Son then the Son would be another God, the image of the invisible God, the exact image of His essence.
But the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son AND the 2 are one thing.
When I see the Son I know the Father is there and if I saw the Father I would know the Son is there.
So now you want me to name something that we can compare God to. But no analogies about the trinity are 100% accurate probably and why would they be?
God is unique. If I could name the perfect analogy then it might become an idol, who knows.

 

[Brian2]

Humility is not to be displayed before "equals" but before everyone. I am to think of others as more significant than I am - IOW, no matter anyone's status no one is better than anyone else. If I am a president in a company - I have top status. I could use that status in rilvary or conceit towards others or I can relinquish that authority remaining humble in service to others. Jesus was royalty, Jesus had status but he never used that status as an advantage but remained lowly in heart in service to others - that's our example of how our attitude should be.

That's true, Jesus was an example of humility before everyone and my understanding of Phil 2 has been enhanced.
However when I look at what this part of Phil 2 tells us I do see that we are looking at the mind that was in Christ Jesus who was in the form of God and did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.
So He had that mind while in the form of God.
THEN He emptied Himself by taking the form of a servant, and He did this before He was a man.
THEN He humbled Himself to obedience unto death.
Being equal to God He humbled Himself and was obedient, like a servant.
Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

So the idea that the Son had a pre existence is undeniably present in the text of Phil 2 imo and also the idea that He was being humble to God His equal.

John 5:30 - I can do nothing on my own. - when he judged his judgment is just because he did the will of him who sent him - As he heard from the Father, he complied.

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
31“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

Jesus was there to glorify the Father and testify of the Father's goodness and show people that His authority comes from His Father and not from Himself.
I would not say that the one who is the image of the invisible God and the exact impression of the nature of God is going to judge unjustly.
I would not say that this one is not as good as God His Father.
John 5:30 is showing Jesus relationship with His Father and God as a man and a Son. It is at least as we should be, and Jesus is exactly like His Father God.
Who is like me and to whom will you compare me? (Isa 40:25-29) and the NT compares Jesus to God and says He is exactly like Him.

John 14:28 True, "Greater" does not mean "better". It means greater - two things compared and one is greater than the other.

Yes the Father was greater than the man Jesus just as the president of anywhere is greater than I am. (But we are both equal before God as humans)

Heb. 1:1-4 Yep, previously God spoke through the prophets - the prophets spoke for God but in these last days God spoke through his Son - His Son spoke for Him. He appointed Jesus "heir of all things" - the one who gives the inheritance is not the one who receives the inheritance so Jesus cannot be God. Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature - an exact imprint (copy, facsimile, imprint) is not the original, i.e. this is not saying Jesus is God but Jesus fully expresses God. Yep, God highly exalted him and set him at his own right hand - if Jesus is God - is God sitting at God's right hand?

The one who gives the inheritance is the Father, the one who receives it is the Son. (who while on earth owned all that the Father had John 16:15) and nobody has said that the Father is the Son. (in the NT the use of God is usually about the Father, but don't let that confuse you that the Son has not the same nature as His Father-God) The Son is not a created being but is the real Son from His Father's loins so to speak.
The man Jesus had the glory of His Father the imprint of God's nature. He was exactly like God, His Father.
The Son sits at the right hand of the Father and in fact rules now and the Father puts all things under His feet. The Son glorifies the Father and the Father glorifies the Son. (and He rules until all is under His feet and then submits again to His Father as it has always been, the Son submits to His Father)
1Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Yes, he became superior to the angels.

The Son became superior to the angels as the name He inherited (YHWH) is superior to their name.

Yes, Jesus told the truth about who and what he is but some people have exalted Jesus' status as Almighty God and lowered Almighty God to one of his created beings. Jesus did not have anything to do with the creation of the heavens and earth in the beginning but he has alot to do with the creation of the age to come establishing the kingdom of God.

I'm sure I pointed out that Heb 1:10-12 is about the creation of this universe we live in because the New Creation will not grow old and be rolled up. So that passage is telling us that Jesus did have somthing to do with the creation of the heavens and the earth in the beginning.
But believing the lies always entails denying plain passages that you would not deny without your presuppositions.
12 “Behold, vI am coming soon, wbringing my recompense with me, xto repay each one for what he has done. 13 yI am the Alpha and the Omega, zthe first and the last, athe beginning and the end.”

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who bwash their robes,5 so that they may have the right to cthe tree of life and that dthey may enter the city by the gates. 15 eOutside are fthe dogs gand sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 h“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things ifor the churches. I am jthe root and kthe descendant of David, lthe bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and mthe Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And nlet the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the owater of life without price.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: pif anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in qthe tree of life and in rthe holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely sI am coming soon.” Amen. tCome, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all.6 Amen.

Rev 1:8 x“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, y“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Jesus is Almighty God says Revelation.

Jesus did not sin - not because he was God - but because he submitted himself in obedience to God his Father. Throughout scripture Jesus is set forth as a man - compared to Adam and placed as an example for us.

Well, I find it sometimes really hard to resist temptations and I know there are alot of people who feel the same. The reality is that all sin and even after becoming a Christian, people sin. So, to me for Jesus to be tempted as we are and remain without ANY sin - is a BIG deal. Yet, if he were God and God cannot even be tempted with evil (wrong doing) that is NOT "being tempted as we are".

Jesus is the exact imprint of the nature of God (Heb 1)
If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin.
But that does not mean that it wasn't hard to resist. If indeed He was tempted as we are and was a man as the scriptures say, then it was hard and it is only because of who He is that He resisted.
And this glorifies the Father of whom He is the image.

Are you saying that Jesus couldn't have sinned?

Good question.
I am saying that prophecy shows that it was known that He would not sin.

John 1:1 In the beginning was bthe Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The Word through whom all things were created and who was the light of the world and in whom was life, (life means that the Word was alive, not a thing) and the darkness did not overcome it. If Jesus was not this living Word of God who was there in the beginning with the God and the exact image of the God, then imo He would have sinned, as all who are just humans born of humans have done.

 

[Soapy]

It's just the Bible story. By definition it is not pagan.
God created everything and man's sinning became a hiccup in it all, but God knew it would happen and had the plan worked out of sending His Son. You believe this pagan story no doubt.
Those who see the Son as being Divine, more than a creation of God, also see the plan as incorporating the Son being able to save us from the death in sin (by stepping into the creation and dying as a sinless sacrifice) but still retain the glory that was and is His.

What is Pagan is a God fathering a child with a human mother and that Son is BOTH GOD and MAN - A man-God… And that’s what you say trinity-Jesus is: A Man-God.

Try denying it, Brian2.

I see the Father as the only true God and in Him is His Son and His Spirit. If I worship the Father, the only true God, I am also worshipping the Son and the Spirit who are in Him.
Not 3 Gods, but one God incorporating 3 persons.

You see the Father as the only true God:

• ‘You do well to believe it. Demons know it also and weep!’

Indeed, this is true: The Father IS the only true God:

• ‘Eternal life depends on them (true believers) believing in you (The Father) the only true God, and in Jesus Christ, WHOM YOU (the Father) sent’

Yes!!! Jesus is the messenger - a servant of God (Isaiah 42:1) - whom God sent:

• Jesus Christ: ‘I was sent to deliver the good news…’

God, who is the Father, as you rightly say here, EMPOWERED HIS SERVANT:

• ‘Here is my servant …. I will put MY SPIRIT on him… He will bring justice to the nations’ (Isaiah 42:1)

John the Baptist:

• “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

What do you say? Is John the Baptist ‘God’ also??

It is plainly obvious that if the messenger is disgraced, disbelieved, humiliated, demeaned… for delivering the message that his king gave him to give to the people, then the king also is disgraced, demeaned, disgraced, disbelieved, humiliated.

THERE IS NO UNITY IN THE BEING OR STATUS of the King (God) and the Servant (Jesus) as you would agree that John the Baptist is a messenger of God and Jesus is a messenger of God. But neither are God because they were - though you think that Jesus Christ should be classed in being and status as God… but not John the Baptist - how weird??

Adding to the quotes from Isaiah, John the Baptist was told BY GOD that whomever he sees the Spirit (of God) coming down on and remaining on, that one is the messiah.

This links with Isaiah wherein God said he would EMPOWER his servant; the messiah, and that one would be ‘The Lord’… which links with the verse saying:

• ‘God made this Jesus TO BE both Lord and Christ’

Why do you have a problem with a clear declaration that God made a man to be what he becomes?? You suggestion is that that man was already what he is BEFORE God made him to be so….

Wow!!! You know, that is EXACTLY like what I’ve said that Satan is trying to do with Jesus Christ - Make him be (seem to be) seated on the throne OF DAVID BEFORE GOD HAS PLACED HIM THERE!

I might add that Jesus does not occupy the throne of God at the end of time. Jesus will occupy THE THRONE OF KING DAVID which GOD prophesied that the messiah WILL TAKE:

• “I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant, I will establish your line forever and make your throne firm through all generations.’” (Psalm 89:3-4)
• “He (the Messiah) will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,” (Luke 1:32)

Do you see in the last quote that the messiah WILL BE CALLED ‘The Son of God’.

It does not say that the messiah IS … but that he WILL BE …

Or do you say that the messiah is ALREADY occupying the throne of David? (Exactly what I warned of earlier in this post!!)

 

[amazing grace]

I was under the impression that you were a JW by your prior remarks, but this comment and your prior remarks show you deviate substantially from WT Christology.

Not a Jehovah's Witness but a Unitarian.

You explicitly disagreed with Brian2 that Jesus "became human" whereas the Watchtower explicitly says otherwise. I quote my source below.

The second comes when you state "Son of Man" is just a title whilst the WT also says otherwise, quoting from the same source:



View attachment 79270
Source

The WT states, quite explicitly that Jesus BECAME a human and that “Son of man” is an expression and not a “title”. Specifically, that the “Son of man” is an expression describing Jesus’ nature as a "fleshly human", and not simply a title earned or conferred upon him by engaging in certain activities, presumably later in life.

So, if you are a JW, I congratulate you on your capacity to think independently, as it would be reminiscent of the Bereans. However, I believe in this instance the WT is actually correct when it states Jesus became human as I see no evidence he was human prior to his incarnation. I also agree with them that "Son of Man" is a expression or reference to Jesus’s nature.

I think it is the word "became" a man. This implies to me that he was something else first and "became" another thing. Jesus was born a human being just as any other human being. The only difference being, he was conceived miraculously by the power of the Most High. I don't believe in the dual nature of Christ making him a "god-man".

So it appears that the Watchtower agrees more with Brian2 and myself than it does with you. This is NOT a problem if you are NOT a JW. In that case, it's simply a "So what if the WT says that, it has nothing to do with me" which is fine. If you are giving personal opinions, or the opinion of a specific church, I encourage you to express it here, as this forum appears to welcome all voices.

I was raised a Baptist - brought up in a Trinitarian environment but always had difficulty reconciling scripture with the trinity doctrine. I came across the teachings of 21st Century Reformation (21stcr.org), Dan Gill, and Anthony Buzzard, Sean Finnegan and other Unitarians which made the scripture concerning God and Jesus clearer to me and gave me a deeper relationship with God and His Son. I do not attend a physical church but do, at times, attend via video Higher Ground Church. I, also watch many teaching videos and read extensively.

And I appreciate that this forum welcomes all voices!

However, if you ARE a JW, it most certainly will incur certain benefits, as you will INSTANTLY see and agree with what Brian, @InChrist and I have posted on this specific matter, and any prior disagreement will instantly dissolve as if it never existed. In fact, you may even chide yourself for not believing our earlier statements, or for not reading your WT's more carefully.

Lastly, it also means we can expect @Eli G to agrees that Jesus "became human" in order to be "born" as a human being.

So once again, we might find ourselves "in agreement" on at least two different matters, leaving @Soapy, (who stated his belief the Father and Satan had a hand in mankind's creation), as our unsurprising outlier.

Unfortunately, this potential agreement with you on whether Jesus "became human", and our almost certain agreement with Eli G on this, does not mean we can gather around the campfire and sing "kumbaya". There is also the matter of doctrinal consistency, which is something you just don't get with "proof-texts".

So, using a consistent hermeneutic, the "Son of Man" is an expression of Christ's human nature, and the Son of God" is an expression of Christ's Divine nature. That is, he is fully man, and fully God. Man, because he was born to a woman, and God, as His only begotten Son.

With "proof texts", the ability to derive a logical and consistent hermeneutic will vary, as demonstrated by a somewhat surprising inability to logically conclude a simple thought experiment I posted earlier.

Again, I don't agree that Jesus "became" human (grew to be "human", or turned into a "human") - He was a real live human being with all the same stuff that makes us a human being. I believe it took great will power from him to live out a perfect life - to relinquish his will to that of his Father's through complete obedience.

 

[amazing grace]

I would say that the idea of sending Jesus existed in God's mind from before Gen 3:15 and in fact Micah 5:2 says that His goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity. So we see that the Son has literally been going forth from eternity,,,,,,,,,,,, and it seems that it does mean from eternity because of the doubling up of what is said. (days of long ago, days of eternity)
If it just meant "in the mind of God" then it really says nothing except that a ruler will come from Bethlehem. Everyone, after all, has been in the mind of God from eternity.
Anyone literally from eternity imo is God since only God is from eternity.

In your opinion, "his goings forth have been from old, from the days of eternity" means Jesus literally existed from eternity past.
In my opinion, "his origin is from old, from ancient days" (also in line with definition of the Hebrew words) means this prophecy of a ruler coming from Bethlehem, from the tribe of Judah shall come forth (origin) for me (God) and has been known from old, from ancient days - said prophecy came into fruition with the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem - When Herod inquired where the Christ was to be born, i.e. he who has been born king of the Jews? The answer was Micah's which told of that "ruler" - And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel. Matt. 2:6

The Divine "I am" is YHWH and it had yet to be fully revealed that YHWH was a trinity. The Jews of Jesus day certainly saw Jesus as being blasphemous and wanted to stone Him at John 8:58. They saw Jesus as claiming divinity. That was one of the things they said about Him, that being a man, He made Himself God.
I don't think it was a case of misunderstanding what Jesus meant, an ambiguous statement by Jesus is not a good reason to kill Him. Also just making a false statement is no reason to stone someone.

Jesus was not claiming to be Yahweh - "but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40)
In the context of John 8 - Jesus is reproving the unbelieving Jews saying they were of their father the devil. He told them - "If I glorify myself my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' But you have not known him . . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad". - meaning that he was the one coming, the Messiah prophesied from days of old not that Abraham actually "saw" his day but the Jews misunderstood - "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" (Note: Jesus didn't say he saw Abraham, but that Abraham "saw" Jesus' day) Then Jesus tells them "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am (he)". - the one prophesied to come. So they picked up stones to throw at him.

The context of what you are referencing "being a man, He made himself to God" - They came out and asked him - "If you are the Christ, tell us plainly" (10:24) - "I told you and you do not believe" (v25) Jesus had been saying all along that the works he did he did in his Father's name but they could not "hear" because they were not his sheep.(10:26,27) They picked up stones again to stone him - "for which works are you going to stone me?" - "we are going to stone you for blasphemy because you, being a man, make yourself God." - Did Jesus EVER say he was God? That was the unbelieving Jews understanding. And Jesus came back with "Is it not written in your Law," I said you were gods?" (Psalm 82:6) If he called them gods to whom the word of God came ---- and Scripture cannot be broken----do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world 'You are blaspheming' because I said I am the Son of God?" Again - Did Jesus EVER say he was God?

Heb 1:10 is about YHWH in the Psalm and is applied to Jesus in the epistle, and that it appears to say that it was God speaking about Jesus in the OT quote.
Nothing about it being about the new creation in Hebrews, and the New Creation is not going to grow old and be rolled up, so no it is not speaking about the New Creation.
The John 1:15 quote I gave was just another quote saying (as the other quotes were also showing) that Jesus was alive before His birth. John the Baptist was older than Jesus but said that Jesus came before him.

Yes, Hebrews 1:10 is quoted form Psalm 102:25 - where it applied to Yahweh (OT), and the writer of Hebrews is lifting it from the Psalms and applying it to Jesus Christ (NT). So, it would make sense that the action being attributed changes also. Many OT verses testify that God created the original heavens and earth but both the OT and the NT tell us that there will be new heavens and earth after the one we are inhabiting now. As one continues reading, the context of Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of these future heavens and earth because scripture tells us, “It is not to angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking”. (Heb. 2:5) The "beginning" does not always apply to the absolute beginning of time but can refer to the beginning of something the author is referring to. When this verse is referring to the work of the Father, as it is in the Old Testament, it refers to the beginning of the entire heavens and earth. When it is applied to the Jesus Christ, it refers to the beginning of his work, "the world to come" not the beginning of all creation, as Hebrews 2:5 makes clear.

Concerning John 1:15 - think about this: In literary criticism and rhetoric, a tautology is a statement that repeats an idea, using near-synonymous morphemes, words or phrases, effectively "saying the same thing twice" - John is just emphasizing Jesus' rank, his superiority above John

Yes, Jesus and the Father are one thing,,,,,,,,,,, one God. Is there anything else than one God?
Yes all believers are one thing, the body of Christ, the Temple which Jesus is building.
I don't see that Eph 4:13 is about us being filled with the fullness of God.
Col 2:9 says in Christ dwells the fullness of deity bodily. Later is says that we also have a fullness. There is no lack in Christ, and so we lack nothing.

If by saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." - "I and the Father are one" means that both, Jesus and the Father are one "thing", i.e. one God then following that same reasoning - all those who believe in Christ are "god" - Jesus prays "that they may all be one, just as you Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us . . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one. . ." (John 17)
All believers are many members but a part of the one body, the body of Christ - Yes, God in Christ in us - the result of Jesus' prayer in John 17.
I apologize I meant Ephesians 3:19 - "and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (the whole prayer 3:14-20)

Having a notional preexistence for Christ is not a sentence, it surely is not hard to read those preexisting scriptures in the natural literal way,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but I guess it requires changing your whole view of Christ and who He is and understanding a lot of other scriptures in a different way.
Once we have a wrong view of a small number of scriptures it can have a large impact on how we read many other scriptures.
The apostolic fathers did see Jesus as God however and that should help us decide on the meaning of the Bible scriptures.

Jesus preexisted through prophecy given throughout the OT. Scripture says that God would raise up a prophet like Moses from among the people of Israel, from their brothers and that He (God) would put His words in his mouth, and he (Jesus) would speak to them all that I (God) command him (Jesus). If Jesus is God then God is commanding Himself what to speak! In Romans, Jesus is compared to Adam - How could there be any comparison between Adam and Jesus if Jesus were God?
Correct, once we have a wrong view of a small number of scriptures, it can have a large impact on our understanding of who God is and who Jesus is.
I don't consider those that debated over the Creeds to be the "apostolic fathers", but I consider Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, - the patriarchs and also the apostles - on my understanding of scripture and they never considered that the coming Messiah would be God.

 

[Soapy]

When the term God is used in the New Testament it usually refers to the Father, and that is what I mean when I say the Jesus is equal to God. I mean that the Son is equal to the Father. And this equality is equality of nature. That is the sort of Son He is, He is not a created being but has the same nature as His Father.
Having this God nature makes the Son equally Divine with His Father.
If the Son was not in the Father and the Father was not in the Son then the Son would be another God, the image of the invisible God, the exact image of His essence.
But the Son is in the Father and the Father in the Son AND the 2 are one thing.
When I see the Son I know the Father is there and if I saw the Father I would know the Son is there.
So now you want me to name something that we can compare God to. But no analogies about the trinity are 100% accurate probably and why would they be?
God is unique. If I could name the perfect analogy then it might become an idol, who knows.

What a strange language you have developed. You say that Jesus is equal to God: God who is the Father… and therefore Jesus IS GOD… the Father?

Jesus is ‘Equal to God and IS GOD’… AND GOD IS THE FATHER’ - because ‘[Jesus] and the Father are one’?

But Jesus is the IMAGE of GOD!!!

Is an image EQUAL to that which it images?

For the Pot say to the Potter, ‘I am your equal’?

Does the created say to the creator, ‘I am you’?

Is a Son equal to his Father?

Is the Son of God equal to God who he is the Son of? How is the son (‘He who does the work the Father gives him to do’) equal to the Father who gives him the work to do?

God (the Father) REWARDS the son for doing what He commissioned him to do. He who gives the reward is greater than he who is commissioned to do the work in order to gain the reward.

Jesus’ reward from God is:

1. To be ANOINTED with the Spirit of God - which is to be filled with the Spirit, which is the power, of God
2. and to be ‘Made Lord and Christ’
3. and to be seated NEXT TO GOD
4. and to be GIVEN rulership for a period of time (and hand back rulership TO GOD)
5. and, to be THE JUDGE of all
6. and to be GRANTED to give life eternal to all who are judged as worthy by Jesus Christ
7. And FINALLY, to be granted to be seated on the throne of his great ancestor, king David

All of the above are GIFTS FROM the Father TO the Son..,, and you say the Son is EQUAL to the Father, equal to Almighty God who gave him the gifts??

 

[amazing grace]

That's true, Jesus was an example of humility before everyone and my understanding of Phil 2 has been enhanced.
However when I look at what this part of Phil 2 tells us I do see that we are looking at the mind that was in Christ Jesus who was in the form of God and did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.
So He had that mind while in the form of God.
THEN He emptied Himself by taking the form of a servant, and He did this before He was a man.
THEN He humbled Himself to obedience unto death.
Being equal to God He humbled Himself and was obedient, like a servant.
Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

So the idea that the Son had a pre existence is undeniably present in the text of Phil 2 imo and also the idea that He was being humble to God His equal.

There are many Trinitarian sources that agree morph refers to the outward appearance and not an inner nature. Bullinger’s Critical Lexicon, morphe is given a one-word definition, “form.” The scholarly lexicon by Walter Bauer, translated and revised by Arndt and Gingrich, has under morphe, “form, outward appearance, shape.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, has “form, external appearance.” Kittel also notes that morphe and schema are often interchangeable. Robert Thayer, in his well-respected lexicon, has under morphe, “the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance.” (Thayer goes on to say that the Greeks said that children reflect the appearance (morphe) of their parents, something easily noticed in every culture.) This verse does not say, “Jesus, being God,” but rather, “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.
"did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" - It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God. (unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God - Gen. 3:5)
"he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant" - Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. Jesus humbled himself and always served others, put others before himself. (you added - He did this before he was a man) Heb. 2:17 Therefore he (Jesus) had to be made like his brothers in every respect . . .
"humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death" - Yes, he always did the will of his Father. If he was God - he could not die; God is immortal.
"Being equal to God" - nothing says that in this section of scripture - He DID NOT grasp at equality with God.
I see no preexistence in this section of scripture.

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
31“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

Jesus was there to glorify the Father and testify of the Father's goodness and show people that His authority comes from His Father and not from Himself.
I would not say that the one who is the image of the invisible God and the exact impression of the nature of God is going to judge unjustly.
I would not say that this one is not as good as God His Father.

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
31“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.

Jesus was there to glorify the Father and testify of the Father's goodness and show people that His authority comes from His Father and not from Himself.
I would not say that the one who is the image of the invisible God and the exact impression of the nature of God is going to judge unjustly.
I would not say that this one is not as good as God His Father.
John 5:30 is showing Jesus relationship with His Father and God as a man and a Son. It is at least as we should be, and Jesus is exactly like His Father God.
Who is like me and to whom will you compare me? (Isa 40:25-29) and the NT compares Jesus to God and says He is exactly like Him.

I judge as I hear . . . who does he hear from?
There is another who testifies in my favor . . . his testimony about me is true . . . Who is another who testifies in Jesus' favor? (In your law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me. [John 8:17,18])
All I can say is that Jesus was totally dependent upon his Father - God is dependent upon no one. The NT always sets the Son in subjection to his Father. Did Jesus perfectly represent his Father? - Yes.

Yes the Father was greater than the man Jesus just as the president of anywhere is greater than I am. (But we are both equal before God as humans)

That was said in the context of humility and not using reputation to set yourself higher than others. A father is always greater than the son in any relationship.

The one who gives the inheritance is the Father, the one who receives it is the Son. (who while on earth owned all that the Father had John 16:15) and nobody has said that the Father is the Son. (in the NT the use of God is usually about the Father, but don't let that confuse you that the Son has not the same nature as His Father-God) The Son is not a created being but is the real Son from His Father's loins so to speak.

The one who gives the inheritance is God and the one who received the inheritance is Jesus - not God giving the inheritance and God receiving the inheritance. IMO - if the Father is God and the Son is God - they are God - seeing there in only one God.
Yep, all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus from God the Father.

The man Jesus had the glory of His Father the imprint of God's nature. He was exactly like God, His Father.
The Son sits at the right hand of the Father and in fact rules now and the Father puts all things under His feet. The Son glorifies the Father and the Father glorifies the Son. (and He rules until all is under His feet and then submits again to His Father as it has always been, the Son submits to His Father)
1Cor 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

I agree that Jesus was made in the image of God as all humanity was. I agree that Jesus totally reflected the characteristics of his Father. But an image or imprint is not the same as the original. Is the imprint or image of Lincoln on a penny literally Lincoln? Is your reflection of yourself in the mirror or in a picture literally you?
Yes, Jesus is at the right hand of God, who is his Father and will hand over the kingdom to God the Father when death is destroyed, he will again be subject to God the Father and God will be all in all. Remember that the Father is the one true God.

The Son became superior to the angels as the name He inherited (YHWH) is superior to their name.

I'm sure I pointed out that Heb 1:10-12 is about the creation of this universe we live in because the New Creation will not grow old and be rolled up. So that passage is telling us that Jesus did have somthing to do with the creation of the heavens and the earth in the beginning.
But believing the lies always entails denying plain passages that you would not deny without your presuppositions.

You did try to point that out but as I said if you continue reading and remember that when the Bible was first written there were no chapter breaks nor numbered verses so in the same context we read: Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come of which we are speaking. . . .

Had to split post.

 

[amazing grace]

12 “Behold, vI am coming soon, wbringing my recompense with me, xto repay each one for what he has done. 13 yI am the Alpha and the Omega, zthe first and the last, athe beginning and the end.”

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who bwash their robes,5 so that they may have the right to cthe tree of life and that dthey may enter the city by the gates. 15 eOutside are fthe dogs gand sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 h“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things ifor the churches. I am jthe root and kthe descendant of David, lthe bright morning star.”
17 The Spirit and mthe Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And nlet the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the owater of life without price.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: pif anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in qthe tree of life and in rthe holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely sI am coming soon.” Amen. tCome, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all.6 Amen.

Rev 1:8 x“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, y“who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Jesus is Almighty God says Revelation.

No, it is not saying that Jesus is Almighty God. He says himself praying to his Father - And this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God . . .
All three phrases used alpha and the omega, first and last, the beginning and the end are very similar in meaning and are used 5 times in scripture - 2 of which refer to God (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12) and 3 refer to Christ, the Son (Rev. 1:17, 2:8, 22:13). It is wrong to assume that just because Jesus shares characteristics or titles with God his Father - it does not make him God.
Rev. 1:17, 18 - I am the first and the last, the living one. I died, and behold I live forever more . . . unique to Jesus - God is immortal and cannot die.
Rev. 2:8 - The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. . . . unique to Jesus - only Jesus died and was resurrected 3 days later never to die again - God is immortal and cannot die.
Rev. 22:12,13 - Behold I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done - unique to Jesus - God has handed all judgment to the Son - (John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son. . .)

Jesus is the exact imprint of the nature of God (Heb 1)
If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin.
But that does not mean that it wasn't hard to resist. If indeed He was tempted as we are and was a man as the scriptures say, then it was hard and it is only because of who He is that He resisted.
And this glorifies the Father of whom He is the image.

If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin - then why tempt him and why and how did he suffer being tempted?
And how is this any encouragement to us? Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people for because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (Heb. 2:17,18) and For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15)

Good question.
I am saying that prophecy shows that it was known that He would not sin.

I think he was actually tempted but because of his obedience and submission to the Father - he didn't.

John 1:1 In the beginning was bthe Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The Word through whom all things were created and who was the of the world and in whom was life, (life means that the Word was alive, not a thing) and the darkness did not overcome it. If Jesus was not this living Word of God who was there in the beginning with the God and the exact image of the God, then imo He would have sinned, as all who are just humans born of humans have done.

I believe he did not sin because he was created by God within the womb of Mary. He was genetically perfect, just as Adam was genetically perfect. Where Adam failed because he grasped at equality with God (Gen. 3:5) Jesus did not grasp at equality with God but remained humble and obedient, submitting to the will of God his Father. All humanity was created in the image of God but being born by natural conception between a man and a woman we carry Adam's sin - we have a sin nature - that's why the fact that Mary had not "known a man" was important.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---- 15) For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many . . .17) For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. . . . 19) For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[Soapy]

Not a Jehovah's Witness but a Unitarian.

I think it is the word "became" a man. This implies to me that he was something else first and "became" another thing. Jesus was born a human being just as any other human being. The only difference being, he was conceived miraculously by the power of the Most High. I don't believe in the dual nature of Christ making him a "god-man".

I was raised a Baptist - brought up in a Trinitarian environment but always had difficulty reconciling scripture with the trinity doctrine. I came across the teachings of 21st Century Reformation (21stcr.org), Dan Gill, and Anthony Buzzard, Sean Finnegan and other Unitarians which made the scripture concerning God and Jesus clearer to me and gave me a deeper relationship with God and His Son. I do not attend a physical church but do, at times, attend via video Higher Ground Church. I, also watch many teaching videos and read extensively.

And I appreciate that this forum welcomes all voices!

Again, I don't agree that Jesus "became" human (grew to be "human", or turned into a "human") - He was a real live human being with all the same stuff that makes us a human being. I believe it took great will power from him to live out a perfect life - to relinquish his will to that of his Father's through complete obedience.

I was raised a Baptist - brought up in a Trinitarian environment but always had difficulty reconciling scripture with the trinity doctrine. I came across the teachings of 21st Century Reformation (21stcr.org), Dan Gill, and Anthony Buzzard, Sean Finnegan and other Unitarians which made the scripture concerning God and Jesus clearer to me and gave me a deeper relationship with God and His Son. I do not attend a physical church but do, at times, attend via video Higher Ground Church. I, also watch many teaching videos and read extensively.

And I appreciate that this forum welcomes all voices!

Your spiritual background is kind of similar to mine. I was made to attend a trinitarian church as a child but could not reconcile the trinity teaching with what I read in the scriptures. There were many times I would be soundlessly mouthing ‘NO! That’s not what it says!!! Why is a church preacher saying these things!)

I was thrown out if a Pentecostal church for asking about trinity: The church had a wonderful congregation and I thought of joining it as I needed a church. I prayed about it … and a few days later a letter landed on my door mat telling me not to come back to the church - Holy Praise - I cried with the emotion of being answered through God’s Holy Spirit. I now attend only the ‘SPIRITUAL CHURCH’ and not a physical one - as Jesus says, ‘Worship is now in spirit and in truth’ so no need for a mountain (like the Samaritans) not a ‘Temple’ (like the Jews).

I believe Jesus is not God, was not born until the prophesied time (was not pre-existent as a living entity) as the Messiah. I believe what scriptures says (summarised in Acts 10:36-38), filled with the Spirit of God (I try to avoid ‘Holy Spirit’, a title which Trinitarians use to claim IT is a Person!)
—————————
Just a heads up with Brian2. He has it on record here saying he believes that God is the Father - the only true God. But he may ‘forget’ he said that - Trinitarians are very clever at ‘forgetting’ what they believed yesterday with one opponent and declare some new belief with a different opponent today… It’s all part of the ‘Make it up as you go along’ that underlines the trinitarian belief which is why it has lasted for over 2000 years!

The thread topic (the O.P.) was madd to explore the claim by some trinitarians I have debated hard with - and echoed by two trinity creeds - that Jesus was ‘Born as the first of God’s creation’… modified in declaration by ‘BEGOTTEN [from God] but not Created’. This was then further modified to say, ‘The Son of God was “ETERNALLY BEING BEGOTTEN” from God.

The modification was evidently required since the question of ‘WHEN did God BEGET the Son?’ is impossible to answer yet must be upheld since the Son is claimed to be the one who created all things - oddly, AFTER the Father first created… (‘The son can do only what he first sees the Father doing!’). But we see nothing that the Father created that the son ALSO created - So the trini belief changes to ‘The Father CREATED THROUGH the Son’… BUT that cannot be true since GOD CREATED ALL THING BY HIMSELF… and we know that Jesus is THE SON of God… not God, Himself… moreover, how can TWO create and say ‘I did it all by myself’ (Wow, and yet trinity is THREE but Trinitarians do not include the third of their ’GOD’ in their creation.

You can see exactly why each trinitarian makes up his own claims - why there are so many different trinity beliefs - which, again, is why it still exists - it morphs like a virus each time it is detected by the truth seeker

 

[Eli G]

I’ve made it clear the Wisdom in Prov. 8 is a great example of an encomium. As such, the woman is not literal.
...

It doesn't matter what you call "encomium", who cares?

1 Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.

Studying the Bible does not mean seeing it from an intellectual point of view, since the Bible is not just a human literary art work, but rather it was inspired by the holy spirit of God and He, Jehovah, gave it to us to teach us many things that we would not learn otherwise (Hb. 4:12; 2 Tim. 3:16).

You are repeating yourself because you think that knowing that Pro.8:22-31 is a symbolism gives you any superior knowledge of what it means. Well, no; it is preventing you from the spiritual message it contains and which is far above the symbol itself.

Any student of the Bible knows that the book of Prov. speaks of obtaining wisdom as a quality that helps to walk through life in such a way that we please God and obtain spiritual benefits that last forever. That in no way affects the fact that Prov. 8:22-31 refers to the Wisdom of God in a different sense: to refer to Jesus Christ and to describe his life before, when he became the means by which all things were created, as every Christian can verify in other Scriptures inspired by the same spirit that inspired the book of Proverbs.

If you read, for example, Nathan's words to David here:

1 Chron. 17:11 “‘“When your days come to an end and you go to be with your forefathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your sons, and I will firmly establish his kingship. 12 He is the one who will build a house for me, and I will firmly establish his throne forever. 13 I will become his father, and he will become my son. I will not remove my loyal love from him the way I removed it from the one who was prior to you. 14 I will cause him to stand in my house and in my kingship forever, and his throne will last forever.”’”

... You will see in the first reading that they refer to Solomon, who would build the temple in Jerusalem, but without so much effort you would still understand that behind those words reference is also made to Jesus, who would be the descendant of David according to the flesh who would occupy the throne of God forever. It is easy to understand: a context first and a symbol behind. If you read Eze. 28:11-19 you can do the same: it is referred to the King of Tyre, but it includes some words that apply to Satan.

Something similar happens in Proverbs when it refers to wisdom and in a portion of the book Jesus is spoken of, who is undoubtedly considered as the wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24) and also as the Logos of God (John 1:1-3,14,18; Rev. 19:13).

Studying the Bible is not becoming infatuated with denying or defending certain ideas, but demonstrating them with the Bible itself. In Col. 1:15-18 we can see how the same things said about wisdom in the Prov. 8:22-31 passage apply to Jesus:

Prov. 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. 25 Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth, 26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there; When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters, 28 When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order, When he established the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things

You can complete the picture by reading other passages like John 1 and Heb. 1. I don't need to beat you in an argument...the Bible speaks by itself, and no one cares what an "encomium" is, so you can write off your intellectuality for nothing.

Luke 10:21 In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.

1 Cor. 1:19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.”
... 2:6 Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.

That's it for today. Have a good one.

 

[amazing grace]

Your spiritual background is kind of similar to mine. I was made to attend a trinitarian church as a child but could not reconcile the trinity teaching with what I read in the scriptures. There were many times I would be soundlessly mouthing ‘NO! That’s not what it says!!! Why is a church preacher saying these things!)

I was thrown out if a Pentecostal church for asking about trinity: The church had a wonderful congregation and I thought of joining it as I needed a church. I prayed about it … and a few days later a letter landed on my door mat telling me not to come back to the church - Holy Praise - I cried with the emotion of being answered through God’s Holy Spirit. I now attend only the ‘SPIRITUAL CHURCH’ and not a physical one - as Jesus says, ‘Worship is now in spirit and in truth’ so no need for a mountain (like the Samaritans) not a ‘Temple’ (like the Jews).

Which is why I usually "attend" a unitarian church online and/or seek out Unitarian teachings. It's hard to stomach when a preacher speaks about God and Christ as the same being when they are distinctly two individuals in scripture.

I believe Jesus is not God, was not born until the prophesied time (was not pre-existent as a living entity) as the Messiah. I believe what scriptures says (summarised in Acts 10:36-38), filled with the Spirit of God (I try to avoid ‘Holy Spirit’, a title which Trinitarians use to claim IT is a Person!)
—————————
Just a heads up with Brian2. He has it on record here saying he believes that God is the Father - the only true God. But he may ‘forget’ he said that - Trinitarians are very clever at ‘forgetting’ what they believed yesterday with one opponent and declare some new belief with a different opponent today… It’s all part of the ‘Make it up as you go along’ that underlines the trinitarian belief which is why it has lasted for over 2000 years!

The thread topic (the O.P.) was madd to explore the claim by some trinitarians I have debated hard with - and echoed by two trinity creeds - that Jesus was ‘Born as the first of God’s creation’… modified in declaration by ‘BEGOTTEN [from God] but not Created’. This was then further modified to say, ‘The Son of God was “ETERNALLY BEING BEGOTTEN” from God.

The modification was evidently required since the question of ‘WHEN did God BEGET the Son?’ is impossible to answer yet must be upheld since the Son is claimed to be the one who created all things - oddly, AFTER the Father first created… (‘The son can do only what he first sees the Father doing!’). But we see nothing that the Father created that the son ALSO created - So the trini belief changes to ‘The Father CREATED THROUGH the Son’… BUT that cannot be true since GOD CREATED ALL THING BY HIMSELF… and we know that Jesus is THE SON of God… not God, Himself… moreover, how can TWO create and say ‘I did it all by myself’ (Wow, and yet trinity is THREE but Trinitarians do not include the third of their ’GOD’ in their creation.

You can see exactly why each trinitarian makes up his own claims - why there are so many different trinity beliefs - which, again, is why it still exists - it morphs like a virus each time it is detected by the truth seeker

I think more people question the veracity of the Trinity Doctrine than we truly know.

 

[Soapy]

No, it is not saying that Jesus is Almighty God. He says himself praying to his Father - And this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God . . .
All three phrases used alpha and the omega, first and last, the beginning and the end are very similar in meaning and are used 5 times in scripture - 2 of which refer to God (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12) and 3 refer to Christ, the Son (Rev. 1:17, 2:8, 22:13). It is wrong to assume that just because Jesus shares characteristics or titles with God his Father - it does not make him God.
Rev. 1:17, 18 - I am the first and the last, the living one. I died, and behold I live forever more . . . unique to Jesus - God is immortal and cannot die.
Rev. 2:8 - The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. . . . unique to Jesus - only Jesus died and was resurrected 3 days later never to die again - God is immortal and cannot die.
Rev. 22:12,13 - Behold I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done - unique to Jesus - God has handed all judgment to the Son - (John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son. . .)

If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin - then why tempt him and why and how did he suffer being tempted?
And how is this any encouragement to us? Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people for because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (Heb. 2:17,18) and For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15)

I think he was actually tempted but because of his obedience and submission to the Father - he didn't.

I believe he did not sin because he was created by God within the womb of Mary. He was genetically perfect, just as Adam was genetically perfect. Where Adam failed because he grasped at equality with God (Gen. 3:5) Jesus did not grasp at equality with God but remained humble and obedient, submitting to the will of God his Father. All humanity was created in the image of God but being born by natural conception between a man and a woman we carry Adam's sin - we have a sin nature - that's why the fact that Mary had not "known a man" was important.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---- 15) For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many . . .17) For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. . . . 19) For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

‘First and Last’, ‘Alpha and Omega’, ‘Beginning and End’… all mean the same thing:

• ‘THE ONLY ONE’

1. God is ‘The Only true God’
2. Jesus is the only man anointed by God with the fullness of Spirit of God
3. Jesus is the only man begotten by God
4. Jesus is the only man ‘adopted’ by God: ‘You are my Son; this day I have become your Father’
5. Jesus is ‘The only Lord’
6. Jesus is the only sinless man
7. Jesus is the only one resurrected by God
8. Jesus is the only man that God has seated next to himself
9. Jesus is the only man to whom He has given the completeness of his power
10. Jesus is the only man who God has given rulership over the whole created world

Just because two people have the same title does not mean the two people are the same one person (Yeah, it not only sounds ridiculous but is ridiculous - but Trinitarians are bounded to claim it as a desperate trinity ideology): The ruler of France is President; the ruler of the United States is President - Does that mean that President Macron and President Biden are(?) the same person?

 

[amazing grace]

‘First and Last’, ‘Alpha and Omega’, ‘Beginning and End’… all mean the same thing:

• ‘THE ONLY ONE’

1. God is ‘The Only true God’
2. Jesus is the only man anointed by God with the fullness of Spirit of God
3. Jesus is the only man begotten by God
4. Jesus is the only man ‘adopted’ by God: ‘You are my Son; this day I have become your Father’
5. Jesus is ‘The only Lord’
6. Jesus is the only sinless man
7. Jesus is the only one resurrected by God
8. Jesus is the only man that God has seated next to himself
9. Jesus is the only man to whom He has given the completeness of his power
10. Jesus is the only man who God has given rulership over the whole created world

Just because two people have the same title does not mean the two people are the same one person (Yeah, it not only sounds ridiculous but is ridiculous - but Trinitarians are bounded to claim it as a desperate trinity ideology): The ruler of France is President; the ruler of the United States is President - Does that mean that President Macron and President Biden are(?) the same person?

There's a couple of things that I don't agree with 1) Jesus is the only man "adopted" by God; 2) Jesus is the only man who God has given rulershi0 over the whole created world and then again I could be just misunderstanding your stance.

 

[Brian2]

What is Pagan is a God fathering a child with a human mother and that Son is BOTH GOD and MAN - A man-God… And that’s what you say trinity-Jesus is: A Man-God.

Try denying it, Brian2.

Well I think the pagan idea is that when that happens the offspring is half a god and half man. In the Bible the off spring is a man who is the image of the invisible God and has the glory of His Father and the nature/essence of His Father (Heb 1:2-4) and can do and who does everything that His Father does. (John 5)
In the Bible this offspring is the Son of God who was all these things before becoming a man and did not change when He became a man, and also was exactly like His Father in character and humbled Himself and submitted to all the things He needed to do to be the Messiah and save us humans.
So not only do you miss those things that I mentioned but also you cannot see that the offspring of God has the nature of His Father, something that is obvious to the pagans.

Adding to the quotes from Isaiah, John the Baptist was told BY GOD that whomever he sees the Spirit (of God) coming down on and remaining on, that one is the messiah.

Yes the Son has the Spirit of God without limit.
In Isaiah 42 YHWH says that He gives His glory to no other.
Since He has given His glory to Jesus, that shows Jesus is YHWH. (Heb 1:3).
In Isaiah God rhetorically asks who is like Him that they should be compared. In the New Testament we see Jesus compared to His Father YHWH and it said that He is exactly like Him and has the same glory and nature and can and does do all that YHWH does.
That makes the Son YHWH also.

This links with Isaiah wherein God said he would EMPOWER his servant; the messiah, and that one would be ‘The Lord’… which links with the verse saying:

• ‘God made this Jesus TO BE both Lord and Christ’
• Why do you have a problem with a clear declaration that God made a man to be what he becomes?? You suggestion is that that man was already what he is BEFORE God made him to be so….

Acts 2:36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

No it does not say that God made (or created) Jesus to be both Lord and Christ. You misquote the Bible here.
What it means in context is that God has declared Jesus to be both Lord and Christ by raising Him up from the dead.
Jesus was both Lord and Christ at His birth.
Luke 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

I might add that Jesus does not occupy the throne of God at the end of time. Jesus will occupy THE THRONE OF KING DAVID which GOD prophesied that the messiah WILL TAKE:

• “I have made a covenant with my chosen one, I have sworn to David my servant, I will establish your line forever and make your throne firm through all generations.’” (Psalm 89:3-4)
• “He (the Messiah) will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,” (Luke 1:32)
• Do you see in the last quote that the messiah WILL BE CALLED ‘The Son of God’.

It does not say that the messiah IS … but that he WILL BE …

Or do you say that the messiah is ALREADY occupying the throne of David? (Exactly what I warned of earlier in this post!!)

Jesus is the ruler of the creation of God according to Rev 3:14.

 

[Brian2]

Again, I don't agree that Jesus "became" human (grew to be "human", or turned into a "human") - He was a real live human being with all the same stuff that makes us a human being. I believe it took great will power from him to live out a perfect life - to relinquish his will to that of his Father's through complete obedience.

We trinitarians certainly believe Jesus to be a real man and do not presume to say that to live the perfect life, and be obedient to His Father's will was an easy thing for Him.
Jesus did live life as a man of flesh and blood and not as a spirit who is not tempted by carnal things. It is because of Him being the eternal Son with the character of His Father which enabled Him to do that imo.

 

[Soapy]

There's a couple of things that I don't agree with 1) Jesus is the only man "adopted" by God; 2) Jesus is the only man who God has given rulershi0 over the whole created world and then again I could be just misunderstanding your stance.

Ok, I understand how the views of God and Jesus are different in different ideologies.

I look at this statement made by God (speaking of the Messiah):

• “You are my Son; This day I have become your Father”

Is it me - am I the only one who sees that statement as an ADOPTION DECLARATION?

At an adoption ceremony or event, as the adoption papers are signed, is that declaration not something a happy Father says to the child he has just adopted?

Jesus is the only one from humanity that God ever said that to; He is therefore said to be the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God.

Jesus is the first begotten AND the last begotten BY GOD… all others who ADOPTED to Sonship of God (and therefore, Brothers with Christ) are adopted through Jesus Christ:

• ‘[God] predestined [the Elect] for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will’ (Eph 1:5)

I am not suggesting that God procreated a spirit Son nor a human Son. My definition of ‘Son’ is:

• “He who does the works [the Father] has given him to do”

You will see the simile from the little-read book of Philemon where the apostle Paul ADOPTS the runaway slave, Onesimus, because Onesimus greatly pleased Paul, who was in chains in prison in Rome. Onesimus carried out all the tasks commissioned to him by Paul in regard to contact with the widespread churches so well that Paul is said to ‘BEGET’ Onesimus as HIS OWN SON:

• “I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains.” (Philemon 1:10)

I can imagine Paul saying in delightfulness to Onesimus:

• ‘I will be to you, a Father; and you will be to me, a Son’
• ‘[From now on] You are my Son; This day I have become a Father to you’

———————————
Rulership over all creation:
Jesus is the only one from mankind that God has given rulership over creation.

Would you prefer ‘…will give rulership over creation’?

I’m suggesting that God gave rulership over creation to the angel who came to be known as ‘[the] Satan’ and ‘the Devil’. This is borne out by many verses such as even Jesus stating:

• ‘The ruler of this world has come into his kingdom’

And ‘Satan’ saying to Jesus:

• ‘Bow down and worship me and I will give you all this [Creation]; it is MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL’

The situation here is that ‘Satan’ knows that Jesus is destined to become the ruler of the world as he, Satan, is merely in STEWARDSHIP over the world…:

• ‘For [God] has by no means subjected the world to come to angels’ (Hebrews 2:5)

 

[Brian2]

In your opinion, "his goings forth have been from old, from the days of eternity" means Jesus literally existed from eternity past.
In my opinion, "his origin is from old, from ancient days" (also in line with definition of the Hebrew words) means this prophecy of a ruler coming from Bethlehem, from the tribe of Judah shall come forth (origin) for me (God) and has been known from old, from ancient days - said prophecy came into fruition with the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem - When Herod inquired where the Christ was to be born, i.e. he who has been born king of the Jews? The answer was Micah's which told of that "ruler" - And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel. Matt. 2:6

Again, we all have origins from the ancient days.

Jesus was not claiming to be Yahweh - "but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40)
In the context of John 8 - Jesus is reproving the unbelieving Jews saying they were of their father the devil. He told them - "If I glorify myself my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' But you have not known him . . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it and was glad". - meaning that he was the one coming, the Messiah prophesied from days of old not that Abraham actually "saw" his day but the Jews misunderstood - "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" (Note: Jesus didn't say he saw Abraham, but that Abraham "saw" Jesus' day) Then Jesus tells them "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am (he)". - the one prophesied to come. So they picked up stones to throw at him.

Even if the Jews though Jesus was saying that He was around in Abraham's time, that is no reason to stone Him.
With your translation (having the predicate "he") Jesus is saying that He was alive before Abraham. Jesus says nothing if you think He was just saying that He was the prophesied Messiah before Abraham was. If He was the Messiah 2000 years ago then He was the prophesied Messiah at the time of Abraham even He did not exist. It was a vacuous statement which meant nothing that they did not know.
You appear to be changng the plain meaning for a vacuous one because of your preconceived beliefs. It is not a proof text for you, but for me, and you want to change the plain meaning.

The context of what you are referencing "being a man, He made himself to God" - They came out and asked him - "If you are the Christ, tell us plainly" (10:24) - "I told you and you do not believe" (v25) Jesus had been saying all along that the works he did he did in his Father's name but they could not "hear" because they were not his sheep.(10:26,27) They picked up stones again to stone him - "for which works are you going to stone me?" - "we are going to stone you for blasphemy because you, being a man, make yourself God." - Did Jesus EVER say he was God? That was the unbelieving Jews understanding. And Jesus came back with "Is it not written in your Law," I said you were gods?" (Psalm 82:6) If he called them gods to whom the word of God came ---- and Scripture cannot be broken----do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world 'You are blaspheming' because I said I am the Son of God?" Again - Did Jesus EVER say he was God?

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

The Jews knew what Jesus was saying when He said "I and the Father are one". What else could "one (thing)" mean but one God?
Jesus protests with Psalm 82 and claiming that He said He was the Son of God. And He may have gotten away with it but went on to say that "the Father is in me and I am in the Father", and then had to make an escape from their hands.
The thing is that they knew what sort of "Son of God" Jesus was saying that He was, one who came from His Father just as a human son comes from His Father.
They would have accepted it if Jesus had claimed to be a non divine Son, one that was anointed like a King etc and became a Son of God that way, but no, Jesus made it plain what type of Son of God He was.
Jesus was the type of Son that Thomas could call "My God". (John 20:28) This is the type of Son that John 20:31 is talking about.
BTW it appears that what Jesus said to them in verse 36 above shows that Jesus was with His Father before becoming a man and it was there that God consecrated Him and then sent Him into the world.

Yes, Hebrews 1:10 is quoted form Psalm 102:25 - where it applied to Yahweh (OT), and the writer of Hebrews is lifting it from the Psalms and applying it to Jesus Christ (NT). So, it would make sense that the action being attributed changes also. Many OT verses testify that God created the original heavens and earth but both the OT and the NT tell us that there will be new heavens and earth after the one we are inhabiting now. As one continues reading, the context of Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of these future heavens and earth because scripture tells us, “It is not to angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking”. (Heb. 2:5) The "beginning" does not always apply to the absolute beginning of time but can refer to the beginning of something the author is referring to. When this verse is referring to the work of the Father, as it is in the Old Testament, it refers to the beginning of the entire heavens and earth. When it is applied to the Jesus Christ, it refers to the beginning of his work, "the world to come" not the beginning of all creation, as Hebrews 2:5 makes clear.

That is reading something into the passage that is not there. When people start doing that sort of thing and twisting the plain meaning of passages to match their preconceived ideas, I can usually tell how blinded they have become to the meaning that is in the scriptures. You do that with quite a few passages that show Jesus having a pre existence, a real one.

 

[Brian2]

Concerning John 1:15 - think about this: In literary criticism and rhetoric, a tautology is a statement that repeats an idea, using near-synonymous morphemes, words or phrases, effectively "saying the same thing twice" - John is just emphasizing Jesus' rank, his superiority above John

John 1:15 John testified concerning Him. He cried out, saying, “This is He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’”

Interesting idea but I would say that it is more than just a repetition of the same idea and in fact is not repeating the same idea but is a statement with a "because" in it, and that shows it is not a repetition of "He who comes after me has surpassed me......"

If by saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." - "I and the Father are one" means that both, Jesus and the Father are one "thing", i.e. one God then following that same reasoning - all those who believe in Christ are "god" - Jesus prays "that they may all be one, just as you Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us . . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one. . ." (John 17)
All believers are many members but a part of the one body, the body of Christ - Yes, God in Christ in us - the result of Jesus' prayer in John 17.

Believers are one body of Christ. We are one with each other. We are joined spiritually with Christ.
1Cor 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
We are children of God through Jesus being the real Son and us being adopted children.
We are not one with God, we are not joined with Him as we are with Christ, we can only be one with the humanity of Jesus and attain to the fulness of Christ. The oneness of the Son and Father is between them and they are joined as one with the one Spirit.

I apologize I meant Ephesians 3:19 - "and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (the whole prayer 3:14-20)

Eph 3:18 will have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth 19 of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
To know this love of Christ helps us to know Christ and be filled with that love, which is the fullness of God.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by nphilosophy and oempty deceit, according to phuman tradition, according to the qelemental spirits1 of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For rin him the whole fullness of deity dwells sbodily, 10 and tyou have been filled in him, who is uthe head of all rule and authority.
Nothing else by Christ in us is needed by us.
Having this fullness of God in us is not the same as having the whole fullness of deity dwelling in us imo.

Jesus preexisted through prophecy given throughout the OT. Scripture says that God would raise up a prophet like Moses from among the people of Israel, from their brothers and that He (God) would put His words in his mouth, and he (Jesus) would speak to them all that I (God) command him (Jesus). If Jesus is God then God is commanding Himself what to speak! In Romans, Jesus is compared to Adam - How could there be any comparison between Adam and Jesus if Jesus were God?
Correct, once we have a wrong view of a small number of scriptures, it can have a large impact on our understanding of who God is and who Jesus is.
I don't consider those that debated over the Creeds to be the "apostolic fathers", but I consider Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, - the patriarchs and also the apostles - on my understanding of scripture and they never considered that the coming Messiah would be God.

I don't think you can say that the prophets did not see the coming Messiah as divine.
In the passage you quote about a prophet like Moses, he was speaking of not just Jesus but all true prophets. With Jesus, the Son of God, Jesus was told what to say by His Father. That is not the Father telling Himself what to say. That is a common misunderstanding and misrepresenting of the Trinity and who Jesus was as a man.
The comparison between the first Adam and Jesus is that they were both human and lived as humans and had an impact on humanity by the way they lived.
Jesus was the sinless man, the spotless sacrifice, He had to live as a man and be a man fully.
The Apostolic Fathers were the first ones after the apostles and who had contact and teaching from apostles. They knew what the apostles taught and that is was that Jesus was God.

 

[Soapy]

There are many Trinitarian sources that agree morph refers to the outward appearance and not an inner nature. Bullinger’s Critical Lexicon, morphe is given a one-word definition, “form.” The scholarly lexicon by Walter Bauer, translated and revised by Arndt and Gingrich, has under morphe, “form, outward appearance, shape.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by Gerhard Kittel, has “form, external appearance.” Kittel also notes that morphe and schema are often interchangeable. Robert Thayer, in his well-respected lexicon, has under morphe, “the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance.” (Thayer goes on to say that the Greeks said that children reflect the appearance (morphe) of their parents, something easily noticed in every culture.) This verse does not say, “Jesus, being God,” but rather, “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.
"did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" - It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God. (unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God - Gen. 3:5)
"he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant" - Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. Jesus humbled himself and always served others, put others before himself. (you added - He did this before he was a man) Heb. 2:17 Therefore he (Jesus) had to be made like his brothers in every respect . . .
"humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death" - Yes, he always did the will of his Father. If he was God - he could not die; God is immortal.
"Being equal to God" - nothing says that in this section of scripture - He DID NOT grasp at equality with God.
I see no preexistence in this section of scripture.

I judge as I hear . . . who does he hear from?
There is another who testifies in my favor . . . his testimony about me is true . . . Who is another who testifies in Jesus' favor? (In your law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me. [John 8:17,18])
All I can say is that Jesus was totally dependent upon his Father - God is dependent upon no one. The NT always sets the Son in subjection to his Father. Did Jesus perfectly represent his Father? - Yes.

That was said in the context of humility and not using reputation to set yourself higher than others. A father is always greater than the son in any relationship.

The one who gives the inheritance is God and the one who received the inheritance is Jesus - not God giving the inheritance and God receiving the inheritance. IMO - if the Father is God and the Son is God - they are God - seeing there in only one God.
Yep, all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus from God the Father.

I agree that Jesus was made in the image of God as all humanity was. I agree that Jesus totally reflected the characteristics of his Father. But an image or imprint is not the same as the original. Is the imprint or image of Lincoln on a penny literally Lincoln? Is your reflection of yourself in the mirror or in a picture literally you?
Yes, Jesus is at the right hand of God, who is his Father and will hand over the kingdom to God the Father when death is destroyed, he will again be subject to God the Father and God will be all in all. Remember that the Father is the one true God.

You did try to point that out but as I said if you continue reading and remember that when the Bible was first written there were no chapter breaks nor numbered verses so in the same context we read: Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come of which we are speaking. . . .

Had to split post.

Brilliant posts…

The one who gives the inheritance is God and the one who received the inheritance is Jesus - not God giving the inheritance and God receiving the inheritance. IMO - if the Father is God and the Son is God - they are God - seeing there in only one God.
Yep, all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus from God the Father.

And also this:

• “For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.” (1Cor 15:28)

Trinitarians imply that Jesus ‘always’ had everything God had. But this cannot be true since God gave Jesus the glorious things AS A REWARD for Jesus’ great deeds in overcoming the world. God gave him the privilege of bringing the world back under God’s rulership.

AND WHEN THAT IS ACCOMPLISHED… Jesus HANDS BACK the rulership to God, God who gave it him in the first place.

The language of the scriptures makes it quite clear that the rulership Jesus gains is only TEMPORARY… therefore he hands back this rulership when the task is accomplished… simple.

We can substantiate this from examples in scriptures. We have Joseph being rewarded with rulership over Egypt by Pharoah to govern until the famine is over. When the famine is over Joseph HANDS BACK the rulership to Pharoah, Pharoah who gave it to him in the first place.

We also have Mordeciah (Book of Esther) who is granted rulership over Persia by king Xerxes. Mordeciah SAVES the Jews on the day of Purim (accomplishes the task Xerxes comminssioned him to do) and then Mordeciah HANDS BACK the rulership to king Xerxes.

It is to be remembered (or learnt?) that God foretells what is to be before it happens. The scriptures must be read with reference to the past in order to understand the future.

What I notice is that these (and many other themes with relevance to proof) are not ever mentioned by Trinitarians. I have posted several of these types but no one has ever properly responded to me concerning their relevance. Really and truly, I have no problem in understanding why they would not want to mention them!)