Jesus - First Born?

[Brian2]

So you say, that the Scriptures I just quoted are not the truth, and I should "open my eyes" to your beliefs opposite to those Scriptures ...
That's disturbing, that you think you are the truth and not what the Scriptures say

What I am saying is that the passages you quote are true and that there are other passages which show Jesus is YHWH which are true also.
So the 2 sets of passages need to be looked at and joined together into an understanding that keeps the harmony of the scriptures intact and does not deny any part of them for the sake of our preconceived beliefs.
Jesus is the Son of God and is a man and probably it is good to realise that when reading the verses you gave, and that means seeing them in context to get the best meaning.
If you think there are verses in what you gave which I cannot explain with that context then show them to me and I will try to explain them the way I see them.
I could do a similar thing with passages that I think show that Jesus is YHWH.
Eg John 5 says: John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.
Psalm 98 says: Psalm 98:8 Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy 9before YHWH, for He comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness and the peoples with equity.

To me those passages show that the Son is YHWH, and your answer is: ???
So you do the same to me.

 

[Soapy]

Rubbish. No one was talking about AGE. Age is chronological. The BEING of a person has nothing to do with AGE!

A human being is a human being no matter what age they are.

God is Spirit and REMAINS SPIRIT ETERNALLY.

Jesus is man and is only ever addressed as man. Even Jesus Christ addresses himself as man and even in relation to God:

• ‘A man who heard it from God’

Stop making things up about what God can and cannot do.
But of course you think I am saying that the Father became a man. That is weird when I have told you so many times that the Father is not the Son.

Please see the bottom of post 108 for my edits.

 

[amazing grace]

Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jesus was in the form of God and then took the form of a servant and became a man. That's what it says isn't it. It certainly looks as if it is speaking of the mind of the pre human Christ, who decided to humble Himself and become a man and be obedient.
John 17:4 I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
This is Jesus saying that He had glory in the presence of God His Father before the world existed. Isn't it?

If Philippians 2 is speaking of Christ Jesus as God - Can we have the mind of God, i.e. have this mind among yourselves? But we can have the mind or attitude of Christ Jesus when we live humbly and serve others. Actually, John 17:4 is Jesus' prayer to God the Father, the only true God.
God had planned to glorify His Son, and now that the time of Jesus’ death was drawing near, Jesus prayed that God would bring His plan to fruition. I do not question the fact that Jesus "existed" before the world began - the question would be: Did Jesus literally exist as a person before the world began or in God's foreknowledge, i.e. in the mind of God? Jesus did not literally exist until his birth.

I find it more complex than just saying that Jesus is God. Jesus does not call Himself God but the Son of God and the Son of Man. He has both the nature of God His Father and the nature of a man.
If I called Jesus "God" then you might decide that I am saying that Jesus is the Father, the one true God, but I am not saying that. I say about Jesus, what He said about Himself. He said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." He said,"I and the Father are one".
So if I could see the Father I would know that the Son is in Him.
And we know that Jesus and the Father are one "thing". I can't think of anything else that Jesus may have meant than one God.
IOW Jesus did not want us to say that Jesus is a separate God to His Father, not 2 Gods, but one God.

Yes, Jesus said: I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I and the Father are one. He also prayed in John 17 that those who believe in him "be one even as we are one" (v11) and "I do not ask for these only but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be in us . . . I in them and you in me that they may become perfectly one". (vs. 20, 21, 23). Key word being "IN".

I hear there is debate over the meaning of "morphe" in Phil 2 and it's use with the Greek word "shema" there. Nevertheless whatever it means, we can see in Phil 2 that having the form of God made Jesus equal to God, before He became a man, and He did not mind giving this equality up for the sake of obedience to His Father.
The Phil 2 passage is about humility between equals after all, and about Jesus humility before His equal, His Father.
The Father is the one true God because His Spirit and His Son (who is His equal) have their source in Him, the Father.
The Son is the Son because His life comes from His Father, (and that is the way it has been always,) but not because He was created by the Father at any time.

Yes, Philippians 2 is about humility - admonition to the Philippian Church (and us) to "do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves . . . Have the same attitude of Christ - who could have relied upon his reputation and set himself above others, but he humbled himself becoming obedient to the Father.

Jesus was never equal to God - “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise." John 5:19 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28 Did Jesus lie or put on a pretense to be something that he is not?

So are you saying that if God became a man that He might lie or change His mind?
But Jesus is exactly life His Father and did not sin at all.
What I am doing is looking at the whole verse and seeing what it means overall. It is talking about what God is like, He is not like a man in those respects.
What you seem to be doing is taking one part of the verse out, and making it about that part,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, as if God is saying. "I am not a man and will never be one".
Hosea 11:9 is God saying that He is Holy and does not act on His strong feelings like men do. It is not about God not being a man or never becoming a man.
IOWs I don't think that it can be said that Jesus was not God just because He was/is a man.

Nope.
It seems that you are ignoring the simple statement - "God is not man" . . . "I am God and not a man" and only applying attributes that make Him not a man - still would result in God not being man. God is setting himself above mankind.

It's true God will not lie for it is impossible for God to lie - but we have seen places in scripture where God has changed his mind concerning specific circumstances. The context here in Numbers is Balaam the prophet telling Balak the king of Moab that God will not change His mind about His purpose for Israel.

It's also true that Jesus never sinned but what accomplishment is that if he was God?

 

[Oeste]

Jesus was never equal to God - “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise." John 5:19 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28 Did Jesus lie or put on a pretense to be something that he is not?

I really like this question you put forth to @Brian2, AG. I will leave him to answer it as he sees fit, as I think he and @InChrist do an excellent job answering questions and dispelling many of the myths being put forth on this thread and forum.

You state "Jesus was never equal to God", and as the Son of Man, this is correct. Jesus as the Son of Man is not equal to God. But as Son of God your answer is incorrect, and we can demonstrate this with the same "proof texts" you put forth:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise." John 5:19

If the Son of Man can do nothing of his own accord, then he could not possibly have been tempted, and the whole temptation account was just a scam, and the prophets were wasting our time when they wrote about it. Why? Because he just told us. He can do nothing on his own accord and would have to first see the Father sinning before he himself could sin.

But we know from scripture that the temptation of Jesus was actual, real and not imagined. I believe we are on one accord in at least this small respect, correct?

In order for Jesus to be tempted, he must be able to do things on his own accord, something he doesn't see his Father doing, something that other men, just like us, are quite able to do, and that is to sin. This ability to sin comes with our "free will" to obey or not obey God, and being "perfect" does not insulate Jesus from sinning, as Adam and Eve amply demonstrated. If Jesus was "created" without the capacity of his own free will, then he was not a man, but more of an automaton, much like this:

​

So, did Jesus lie or put on a pretense to be something that he is not?

Not at all. When Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord..." he was speaking as the SON OF GOD, and not as the SON OF MAN. As a Son of Man Jesus was "perfectly" able to sin, just as Adam did before him.

I see no way to reconcile this statement of Jesus with the temptation account in a logically consistent manner unless Jesus has a dual nature. Still need further "proof" or evidence?

Then look no further than what Jesus claims to do in the very same verse! He can only do "what he sees the Father doing".

How can Jesus, as Son of Man, "see" what the Father is doing and how, as Son of Man, can he actually "DO" these things? Well, as the Son of Man he can't peek in and see what the Father is doing, only what God has done and made visible, and certainly he cannot do the same things the Father does just by "seeing" Him. The verse makes no sense with Jesus as Son of Man, but makes perfect sense when we see Jesus as the only begotten Son of God.

Likewise, if the Son is only seeing the Father "figuratively", then he would have to "see" the Father "figuratively" sinning before he himself could sin. He would have to do this on his own accord, something he just told us he was unable to do, unless you claim the Father is sending Jesus naughty images of him "figuratively" sinning so that Jesus can sin if so desires. The whole notion makes no sense because we would have both the Father and Satan tempting Jesus.

Now with this understanding, Jesus as Son of Man and Jesus as Son of God, as two different roles of Jesus, we have the capacity to reconcile scripture, we can properly view the verse you concluded with: "...the Father is Greater than I".

Once again, this is correct because Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man. He is fully man, not part man and part God, so of course the Father is greater than he is. As Son of God, he is fully God, not part God and part man and God is not greater than God, because only God is God.

The Bible declares Jesus to be both Son of Man and Son of God. When we see Jesus acting in these role we can reconcile scripture and begin to answer even the most simple of questions.

Still need further evidence?

Here is a simple thought experiment:

The only begotten Son of frog is frog.​

​

The only begotten Son of dog is dog.​

​

The only begotten Son of man is man.​

​

The only begotten Son of God is _____?​

Remember, Jesus is a "begotten" and not an "adopted" Son. I'll await any logically consistent answer.


I have a cookout on the menu, and I am late, with people patiently waiting for me. I hope everyone here has a very enjoyable day, I have not had a chance to proofread, so I apologize in advance for any spelling errors.

 

[amazing grace]

I really like this question you put forth to @Brian2, AG. I will leave him to answer it as he sees fit, as I think he and @InChrist do an excellent job answering questions and dispelling many of the myths being put forth on this thread and forum.

You state "Jesus was never equal to God", and as the Son of Man, this is correct. Jesus as the Son of Man is not equal to God. But as Son of God your answer is incorrect, and we can demonstrate this with the same "proof texts" you put forth:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise." John 5:19

If the Son of Man can do nothing of his own accord, then he could not possibly have been tempted, and the whole temptation account was just a scam, and the prophets were wasting our time when they wrote about it. Why? Because he just told us. He can do nothing on his own accord and would have to first see the Father sinning before he himself could sin.

But we know from scripture that the temptation of Jesus was actual, real and not imagined. I believe we are on one accord in at least this small respect, correct?

In order for Jesus to be tempted, he must be able to do things on his own accord, something he doesn't see his Father doing, something that other men, just like us, are quite able to do, and that is to sin. This ability to sin comes with our "free will" to obey or not obey God, and being "perfect" does not insulate Jesus from sinning, as Adam and Eve amply demonstrated. If Jesus was "created" without the capacity of his own free will, then he was not a man, but more of an automaton, much like this:

View attachment 79223​

So, did Jesus lie or put on a pretense to be something that he is not?

Not at all. When Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord..." he was speaking as the SON OF GOD, and not as the SON OF MAN. As a Son of Man Jesus was "perfectly" able to sin, just as Adam did before him.

I see no way to reconcile this statement of Jesus with the temptation account in a logically consistent manner unless Jesus has a dual nature. Still need further "proof" or evidence?

Then look no further than what Jesus claims to do in the very same verse! He can only do "what he sees the Father doing".

How can Jesus, as Son of Man, "see" what the Father is doing and how, as Son of Man, can he actually "DO" these things? Well, as the Son of Man he can't peek in and see what the Father is doing, only what God has done and made visible, and certainly he cannot do the same things the Father does just by "seeing" Him. The verse makes no sense with Jesus as Son of Man, but makes perfect sense when we see Jesus as the only begotten Son of God.

Likewise, if the Son is only seeing the Father "figuratively", then he would have to "see" the Father "figuratively" sinning before he himself could sin. He would have to do this on his own accord, something he just told us he was unable to do, unless you claim the Father is sending Jesus naughty images of him "figuratively" sinning so that Jesus can sin if so desires. The whole notion makes no sense because we would have both the Father and Satan tempting Jesus.

Now with this understanding, Jesus as Son of Man and Jesus as Son of God, as two different roles of Jesus, we have the capacity to reconcile scripture, we can properly view the verse you concluded with: "...the Father is Greater than I".

Once again, this is correct because Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man. He is fully man, not part man and part God, so of course the Father is greater than he is. As Son of God, he is fully God, not part God and part man and God is not greater than God, because only God is God.

The Bible declares Jesus to be both Son of Man and Son of God. When we see Jesus acting in these role we can reconcile scripture and begin to answer even the most simple of questions.

Still need further evidence?

Here is a simple thought experiment:

The only begotten Son of frog is frog.​

​

The only begotten Son of dog is dog.​

​

The only begotten Son of man is man.​

​

The only begotten Son of God is _____?​

Remember, Jesus is a "begotten" and not an "adopted" Son. I'll await any logically consistent answer.


I have a cookout on the menu, and I am late, with people patiently waiting for me. I hope everyone here has a very enjoyable day, I have not had a chance to proofread, so I apologize in advance for any spelling errors.

The "Son of Man" and the "Son of God" are considered titles. The Son of Man and the Son of God are one and the self-same Jesus of Nazareth. The Son of Man and the Son of God, aka Jesus, always did his Father's will or IOW always did what the Father told or commanded him to do.

When Jesus spoke "the Son can do nothing of his own accord" - it was in the context of healing. Jesus received what he was taught from his Father - a theme that Jesus taught over and over in John, that he had not come on his own and that he was not acting on his own initiative or from his own power.

If Jesus was God - the temptations were a sham because God cannot be tempted to do evil and then Jesus wasn't actually tempted just as we are.

I know that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, aka Son of Man and that God sent him via miraculous conception in the womb of Mary and Mary gave birth to a son. Mary did not give birth to a "god-man" but a real human being who grew in wisdom and statute - a man attested by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him!

In your law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father (God) who sent me bears witness about me. (John 8:18) Jesus bears witness about himself and God, the Father, who sent him bears witness about him. TWO people - so God is the Father and if Jesus is God - would this not make two "gods"?

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. (John 14:1) We are to believe in God and also (in addition) - we are to believe in Jesus. Again, we are to believe in God and if Jesus is God - would this not make two "gods"?

Yes, we are cooking also - enjoy your 4th!

 

[Eli G]

No, I've been pretty clear. I think Proverbs 8 is an encomium. It's a metaphor, so it cannot possibly be understood to be literal. The author is simply giving praise. It is not a history lesson on how Jesus was created.
...

​

Make up your mind: or the Wisdom in Prov. 8 is literally a woman or not ...

If it is not literally a woman and it is just a symbol of something or someone, the sex is not literal and your supposedly necessary sex transition of the Wisdom of God to be an impersonation of the Logos of God is nothing more than stupidity ... otherwise you are internally very inconsistent and don't even notice it.

Also, in the Christian Greek Scriptures there is enough information about Jesus before he was born as a human to ascertain if the description in Prov.8:22-31 matches or not... And you know what? They coincide. Read Col. 1:15-18, for example.

 

[InChrist]

The "Son of Man" and the "Son of God" are considered titles. The Son of Man and the Son of God are one and the self-same Jesus of Nazareth. The Son of Man and the Son of God, aka Jesus, always did his Father's will or IOW always did what the Father told or commanded him to do.

When Jesus spoke "the Son can do nothing of his own accord" - it was in the context of healing. Jesus received what he was taught from his Father - a theme that Jesus taught over and over in John, that he had not come on his own and that he was not acting on his own initiative or from his own power.

If Jesus was God - the temptations were a sham because God cannot be tempted to do evil and then Jesus wasn't actually tempted just as we are.

I know that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, aka Son of Man and that God sent him via miraculous conception in the womb of Mary and Mary gave birth to a son. Mary did not give birth to a "god-man" but a real human being who grew in wisdom and statute - a man attested by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him!

In your law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father (God) who sent me bears witness about me. (John 8:18) Jesus bears witness about himself and God, the Father, who sent him bears witness about him. TWO people - so God is the Father and if Jesus is God - would this not make two "gods"?

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. (John 14:1) We are to believe in God and also (in addition) - we are to believe in Jesus. Again, we are to believe in God and if Jesus is God - would this not make two "gods"?

Yes, we are cooking also - enjoy your 4th!

No, we are not to believe “two gods”. We are to believe as the scriptures reveal there is One Godhead composed of three Personal Spiritual Beings; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son became flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ.


“The Hebrew word elohim (gods) occurs about 2,500 times in the Old Testament, while the singular form occurs only250 times and most of those designate false gods. Genesis:1:1
reads, "In the beginning, elohim created the heaven and the earth"; i.e., literally, "godscreated the heaven and the earth." Though a single noun is available, yet the plural form is consistently used for God. And in violation of grammatical rules, with few exceptions, singular verbs and pronouns are used with this plural noun. Why?

At the burning bush it was elohim (gods) who spoke to Moses. Yet elohim did not say, "We are that we are," but "I AM THAT I AM" (Ex 3:14). One cannot escape the fact that, all through the Bible, God is presented as a plurality and yet as One, as having both diversity and unity. This is unique among all the world's religions! To reject the Trinity is to reject the God of the Bible.

The New Testament presents three Persons who are distinct, yet each is recognized as God. At the same time we have repeatedly the clear statement that there is only one true God. Christ prays to the Father. Is He praying to Himself? "The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1Jn:4:14). Did He send Himself? Worse yet, did one "office" pray to and send a "title"? Father, Son and Holy Spirit each has distinct functions, yet each works only in conjunction with the others. Christ said, "The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself [on my own initiative]: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works" (Jn:14:10); "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter...even the Spirit of truth" (Jn:14:16-17). Throughout the New Testament, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each separately honored and act as God, yet only in concert with one another.

The Old Testament also presents three Persons in the Godhead interacting. For example: "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens....From the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me" (Isa:48:12-16). The One speaking through Isaiah refers to Himself as "the first and the last" and the Creator of all, so He must be God. But He speaks of two others in the same passage who must also be God: "the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Jesus presented a similar passage to the Pharisees (Mat:22:41-46) when He asked them who the Messiah was, and they said, "The Son of David." He then quoted, "The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Ps:110:1). Then Jesus asked them, "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" The Pharisees were speechless. Unitarianism cannot explain these two "Lords."

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,

www.thebereancall.org

 

[amazing grace]

No, we are not to believe “two gods”. We are to believe as the scriptures reveal there is One Godhead composed of three Personal Spiritual Beings; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Son became flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus defined God in Mark 12:29 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) our God, the LORD (Yahweh) is one." And in John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

“The Hebrew word elohim (gods) occurs about 2,500 times in the Old Testament, while the singular form occurs only250 times and most of those designate false gods. Genesis:1:1
reads, "In the beginning, elohim created the heaven and the earth"; i.e., literally, "godscreated the heaven and the earth." Though a single noun is available, yet the plural form is consistently used for God. And in violation of grammatical rules, with few exceptions, singular verbs and pronouns are used with this plural noun. Why?

The word elohim can be used for singular and plural subjects alike - the same as our English words "deer" and "fish". Many Hebrew words carry more than one definition and when elohim is being used in a plural sense, it refers to "gods" or "men with authority" and in the singular sense, it can refer to "God" or "a god", or "judge". The Hebrew Lexicon by Brown, Driver, and Briggs - considered to be one of the best available and it has as its first usage for elohim: “rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power, divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels, gods. Generally speaking, when a singular verb and/or singular pronoun is used in relation to elohim - it should be taken in the singular sense.

At the burning bush it was elohim (gods) who spoke to Moses. Yet elohim did not say, "We are that we are," but "I AM THAT I AM" (Ex 3:14). One cannot escape the fact that, all through the Bible, God is presented as a plurality and yet as One, as having both diversity and unity. This is unique among all the world's religions! To reject the Trinity is to reject the God of the Bible.

Correct, He did not use the plural pronoun "we" but the singular pronoun "I" - so elohim would be used in the singular here.

The New Testament presents three Persons who are distinct, yet each is recognized as God. At the same time we have repeatedly the clear statement that there is only one true God. Christ prays to the Father. Is He praying to Himself? "The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1Jn:4:14). Did He send Himself? Worse yet, did one "office" pray to and send a "title"? Father, Son and Holy Spirit each has distinct functions, yet each works only in conjunction with the others. Christ said, "The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself [on my own initiative]: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works" (Jn:14:10); "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter...even the Spirit of truth" (Jn:14:16-17). Throughout the New Testament, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each separately honored and act as God, yet only in concert with one another.

Jesus Christ is not recognized as God. He is the Son of God. Jesus says of himself that he is a man.
Jesus prays to God, his Father and Jesus does many mighty works, wonders and signs because it was God, the Father doing the works through him. Did Jesus send himself? No - the sender is not the one sent. The Holy Spirit is not a separate person but is God's Spirit as in Gen. 1:1 - the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters . . . and Acts 5 when Ananais and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit - they lied to God.
God dwelt IN Jesus - God in Christ dwells IN us with the new birth.

The Old Testament also presents three Persons in the Godhead interacting. For example: "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens....From the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me" (Isa:48:12-16). The One speaking through Isaiah refers to Himself as "the first and the last" and the Creator of all, so He must be God. But He speaks of two others in the same passage who must also be God: "the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Jesus presented a similar passage to the Pharisees (Mat:22:41-46) when He asked them who the Messiah was, and they said, "The Son of David." He then quoted, "The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Ps:110:1). Then Jesus asked them, "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?" The Pharisees were speechless. Unitarianism cannot explain these two "Lords."

The Trinity

Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,

www.thebereancall.org

I see no Trinity in this context: The contrast and contest between Yahweh and idols - the idols being specifically mentioned in Isa 48:5 “I [Yahweh] declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.’ God is speaking through Isaiah and is speaking concerning Cyrus (Isa. 44:24; 45:1)
I, even I, have spoken and called him (Cyrus) and I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way . . . And now the Lord God has sent me, and his spirit - God called Cyrus, placed His Spirit upon him to empower him, and Cyrus walked out his calling.

Of course, Jesus is asking this of the unbelieving Pharisees - they didn't believe he was the Messiah and "Son of David" is a Messianic title for Jesus. David knew that God had promised him a kingdom from his offspring after him and God was going to establish this kingdom that would last forever - God was going to be the Father of this offspring and that this offspring would be his son. Jesus is the "Son of David" through genealogy. The LORD (adonai Yahweh) said unto my Lord (adon/adoni Jesus Christ) - Jesus, the Messiah, is David's Lord.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus defined God in Mark 12:29 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (Yahweh) our God, the LORD (Yahweh) is one." And in John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

The word elohim can be used for singular and plural subjects alike - the same as our English words "deer" and "fish". Many Hebrew words carry more than one definition and when elohim is being used in a plural sense, it refers to "gods" or "men with authority" and in the singular sense, it can refer to "God" or "a god", or "judge". The Hebrew Lexicon by Brown, Driver, and Briggs - considered to be one of the best available and it has as its first usage for elohim: “rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power, divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels, gods. Generally speaking, when a singular verb and/or singular pronoun is used in relation to elohim - it should be taken in the singular sense.

Correct, He did not use the plural pronoun "we" but the singular pronoun "I" - so elohim would be used in the singular here.

Jesus Christ is not recognized as God. He is the Son of God. Jesus says of himself that he is a man.
Jesus prays to God, his Father and Jesus does many mighty works, wonders and signs because it was God, the Father doing the works through him. Did Jesus send himself? No - the sender is not the one sent. The Holy Spirit is not a separate person but is God's Spirit as in Gen. 1:1 - the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters . . . and Acts 5 when Ananais and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit - they lied to God.
God dwelt IN Jesus - God in Christ dwells IN us with the new birth.

I see no Trinity in this context: The contrast and contest between Yahweh and idols - the idols being specifically mentioned in Isa 48:5 “I [Yahweh] declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.’ God is speaking through Isaiah and is speaking concerning Cyrus (Isa. 44:24; 45:1)
I, even I, have spoken and called him (Cyrus) and I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way . . . And now the Lord God has sent me, and his spirit - God called Cyrus, placed His Spirit upon him to empower him, and Cyrus walked out his calling.

Of course, Jesus is asking this of the unbelieving Pharisees - they didn't believe he was the Messiah and "Son of David" is a Messianic title for Jesus. David knew that God had promised him a kingdom from his offspring after him and God was going to establish this kingdom that would last forever - God was going to be the Father of this offspring and that this offspring would be his son. Jesus is the "Son of David" through genealogy. The LORD (adonai Yahweh) said unto my Lord (adon/adoni Jesus Christ) - Jesus, the Messiah, is David's Lord.

God is speaking through Isaiah and is speaking concerning Cyrus (Isa. 44:24; 45:1)
I, even I, have spoken and called him (Cyrus) and I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way . . . And now the Lord God has sent me, and his spirit - God called Cyrus, placed His Spirit upon him to empower him, and Cyrus walked out his calling.

Absolutely right. And this also acts as a prophesy of the messiah to come - Jesus Christ:

• ‘Behold my servant - my chosen one in whom I am well pleased. I will put my spirit on him and he shall hearing justice to the nations’ (paraphrased of Isaiah 42:1)

And Abraham was promised BY GOD that the messiah would be from his (Abraham’s) loins. There is no claim that Abraham’s descendant would be ALMIGHTY GOD!!

 

[Brian2]

If Philippians 2 is speaking of Christ Jesus as God - Can we have the mind of God, i.e. have this mind among yourselves? But we can have the mind or attitude of Christ Jesus when we live humbly and serve others. Actually, John 17:4 is Jesus' prayer to God the Father, the only true God.
God had planned to glorify His Son, and now that the time of Jesus’ death was drawing near, Jesus prayed that God would bring His plan to fruition. I do not question the fact that Jesus "existed" before the world began - the question would be: Did Jesus literally exist as a person before the world began or in God's foreknowledge, i.e. in the mind of God? Jesus did not literally exist until his birth.

Micah 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

John 1:15
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

Yes, Jesus said: I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I and the Father are one. He also prayed in John 17 that those who believe in him "be one even as we are one" (v11) and "I do not ask for these only but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be in us . . . I in them and you in me that they may become perfectly one". (vs. 20, 21, 23). Key word being "IN".

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Christians are one body of Christ because the Spirit of Christ is in all of us.
We individually and corporately are perfected to be the stature of Christ, the stature of the man Jesus the Christ. We are not divine, we are creations and are actually part of the new creation. Jesus is divine and is before all things (Col 1) and cannot have been created since all things were created through Him. We taste of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4) but the fullness of deity dwells in Christ bodily. (Col 2:9)

Yes, Philippians 2 is about humility - admonition to the Philippian Church (and us) to "do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves . . . Have the same attitude of Christ - who could have relied upon his reputation and set himself above others, but he humbled himself becoming obedient to the Father.

We could discuss that but what is the point if you do not see that Jesus lived before becoming a man. Surely the verses I gave you above show that He lived before becoming a man and humbled Himself before God His Father to become a man and become obedient through humility and suffering and death.

Jesus was never equal to God - “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise." John 5:19 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. John 5:30 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28 Did Jesus lie or put on a pretense to be something that he is not?

If Jesus was not equal to God His Father then Jesus was not an example of humility before your equals and so it was silly to choose Jesus as an example of that.
John 5:19 is speaking about authority and shows Jesus submitting to the authority of His Father, something He does because He has the same character as His Father.
The Father does something first, like say "Let there be light" etc and the Son, the Word, creates the light. imo. That is God creating everything through the Son.
John 5:30 is about authority and humility and wanting to please His Father before going off and doing whatever He wants. Jesus not claiming more than He is, but submitting to His Father's good pleasure in all things.
John 14:28 is Jesus saying that the Father is more than the lowly man that Jesus is. It does not mean that the Father is better. Greater does not mean better.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Jesus told the truth about who and what He is but some people have taken it the wrong way and lowered Jesus status and others have believed them. Heb 1 shows us that Jesus has the same glory as God, and God created through His Son. It says Jesus has the exact nature that His Father has, and upholds the universe by His power (which I presume He has always done, and that it was not a job given to Him after He rose from the dead)
It says that Jesus, the human Son and heir, inherited a name,,,,,,,,,,,, and that would be from His Father,,,,,,,,,, the name above all names, YHWH (Phil 2:9)

Nope.
It seems that you are ignoring the simple statement - "God is not man" . . . "I am God and not a man" and only applying attributes that make Him not a man - still would result in God not being man. God is setting himself above mankind.

Yes of course God is above humans and does not lie like we do, and that is what He meant, and His divine Son did not lie like us humans because of His divine character.
But of course Jesus was, is, the Son of God and the whole of God did not become a man, in fact Jesus said that the Father is the only true God and that He is in His Father and one with Him.
So really your whole argument is moot unless Jesus is the totality of God.

It's true God will not lie for it is impossible for God to lie - but we have seen places in scripture where God has changed his mind concerning specific circumstances. The context here in Numbers is Balaam the prophet telling Balak the king of Moab that God will not change His mind about His purpose for Israel.

It's also true that Jesus never sinned but what accomplishment is that if he was God?

The scriptures tell us that Jesus was a man and as such was tempted like any man. If He overcame those temptations then He overcame the world. If He actually was tempted like any man then it is not a small thing to say no to actual temptation.
But let's just assume for a split second that the temptations were nothing to Jesus because of His Divinity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what difference does that make about anything?
Are you saying that the temptations had to be excruciatingly hard or it did not count, or something?
Jesus was tempted by Satan who also wanted to test Him to see if he could make Him sin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but there was no question about the outcome, God prophesied that outcome many years before, God was not testing Jesus to see if He was good enough. God His Father knew He was good enough to overcome the world.

 

[Soapy]

Micah 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

John 1:15
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”



I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Christians are one body of Christ because the Spirit of Christ is in all of us.
We individually and corporately are perfected to be the stature of Christ, the stature of the man Jesus the Christ. We are not divine, we are creations and are actually part of the new creation. Jesus is divine and is before all things (Col 1) and cannot have been created since all things were created through Him. We taste of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4) but the fullness of deity dwells in Christ bodily. (Col 2:9)



We could discuss that but what is the point if you do not see that Jesus lived before becoming a man. Surely the verses I gave you above show that He lived before becoming a man and humbled Himself before God His Father to become a man and become obedient through humility and suffering and death.



If Jesus was not equal to God His Father then Jesus was not an example of humility before your equals and so it was silly to choose Jesus as an example of that.
John 5:19 is speaking about authority and shows Jesus submitting to the authority of His Father, something He does because He has the same character as His Father.
The Father does something first, like say "Let there be light" etc and the Son, the Word, creates the light. imo. That is God creating everything through the Son.
John 5:30 is about authority and humility and wanting to please His Father before going off and doing whatever He wants. Jesus not claiming more than He is, but submitting to His Father's good pleasure in all things.
John 14:28 is Jesus saying that the Father is more than the lowly man that Jesus is. It does not mean that the Father is better. Greater does not mean better.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Jesus told the truth about who and what He is but some people have taken it the wrong way and lowered Jesus status and others have believed them. Heb 1 shows us that Jesus has the same glory as God, and God created through His Son. It says Jesus has the exact nature that His Father has, and upholds the universe by His power (which I presume He has always done, and that it was not a job given to Him after He rose from the dead)
It says that Jesus, the human Son and heir, inherited a name,,,,,,,,,,,, and that would be from His Father,,,,,,,,,, the name above all names, YHWH (Phil 2:9)



Yes of course God is above humans and does not lie like we do, and that is what He meant, and His divine Son did not lie like us humans because of His divine character.
But of course Jesus was, is, the Son of God and the whole of God did not become a man, in fact Jesus said that the Father is the only true God and that He is in His Father and one with Him.
So really your whole argument is moot unless Jesus is the totality of God.



The scriptures tell us that Jesus was a man and as such was tempted like any man. If He overcame those temptations then He overcame the world. If He actually was tempted like any man then it is not a small thing to say no to actual temptation.
But let's just assume for a split second that the temptations were nothing to Jesus because of His Divinity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what difference does that make about anything?
Are you saying that the temptations had to be excruciatingly hard or it did not count, or something?
Jesus was tempted by Satan who also wanted to test Him to see if he could make Him sin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but there was no question about the outcome, God prophesied that outcome many years before, God was not testing Jesus to see if He was good enough. God His Father knew He was good enough to overcome the world.

I ‘love’ the way you say that Jesus is equal to God - and then say that Jesus IS God!

You don’t see that you express a conundrum - a paradox - a confusion - a contradiction - a lie!!!

You are STATING that Jesus is not God and then claiming that Jesus is God!!

Something that IS, cannot be described as being EQUAL to what it IS!

It is no wonder that even trinity states that’s it’s ideology is INCOMPREHENSIBLE!

If you don’t agree then please give an example of something that is equal to what it is!

 

[Soapy]

Micah 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

John 1:15
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”



I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Christians are one body of Christ because the Spirit of Christ is in all of us.
We individually and corporately are perfected to be the stature of Christ, the stature of the man Jesus the Christ. We are not divine, we are creations and are actually part of the new creation. Jesus is divine and is before all things (Col 1) and cannot have been created since all things were created through Him. We taste of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4) but the fullness of deity dwells in Christ bodily. (Col 2:9)



We could discuss that but what is the point if you do not see that Jesus lived before becoming a man. Surely the verses I gave you above show that He lived before becoming a man and humbled Himself before God His Father to become a man and become obedient through humility and suffering and death.



If Jesus was not equal to God His Father then Jesus was not an example of humility before your equals and so it was silly to choose Jesus as an example of that.
John 5:19 is speaking about authority and shows Jesus submitting to the authority of His Father, something He does because He has the same character as His Father.
The Father does something first, like say "Let there be light" etc and the Son, the Word, creates the light. imo. That is God creating everything through the Son.
John 5:30 is about authority and humility and wanting to please His Father before going off and doing whatever He wants. Jesus not claiming more than He is, but submitting to His Father's good pleasure in all things.
John 14:28 is Jesus saying that the Father is more than the lowly man that Jesus is. It does not mean that the Father is better. Greater does not mean better.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Jesus told the truth about who and what He is but some people have taken it the wrong way and lowered Jesus status and others have believed them. Heb 1 shows us that Jesus has the same glory as God, and God created through His Son. It says Jesus has the exact nature that His Father has, and upholds the universe by His power (which I presume He has always done, and that it was not a job given to Him after He rose from the dead)
It says that Jesus, the human Son and heir, inherited a name,,,,,,,,,,,, and that would be from His Father,,,,,,,,,, the name above all names, YHWH (Phil 2:9)

Yes of course God is above humans and does not lie like we do, and that is what He meant, and His divine Son did not lie like us humans because of His divine character.
But of course Jesus was, is, the Son of God and the whole of God did not become a man, in fact Jesus said that the Father is the only true God and that He is in His Father and one with Him.
So really your whole argument is moot unless Jesus is the totality of God.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus was a man and as such was tempted like any man. If He overcame those temptations then He overcame the world. If He actually was tempted like any man then it is not a small thing to say no to actual temptation.
But let's just assume for a split second that the temptations were nothing to Jesus because of His Divinity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what difference does that make about anything?
Are you saying that the temptations had to be excruciatingly hard or it did not count, or something?
Jesus was tempted by Satan who also wanted to test Him to see if he could make Him sin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but there was no question about the outcome, God prophesied that outcome many years before, God was not testing Jesus to see if He was good enough. God His Father knew He was good enough to overcome the world.

What was the purpose of God creating all things if he then becomes one in creation himself in order to save mankind and become ruler of creation?

You don’t see that as ridiculous - in fact, pagan?

You believe in Hercules, and Thor, and all the Sons of the God of the Egyptians?

I thought Christianity was supposed to be Anti-Pagan.., left behind when Abraham left his pagan Father and the worthless worship of his family idols!! You make Jesus Christ into one of those idols by your claim or reality of worshipping him - AGAINST THE STATEMENTS FROM JESUS himself:

• ‘Worship GOD!!’

Even as you claim Jesus is EQUAL to GOD, the statement:

• ‘Worship GOD [who is The Father] and only to Him give sacred service’

does not mean:

• ‘and worship His equal, two!!’

 

[amazing grace]

Micah 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

John 1:15
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

There are two types of Jewish preexistence - 1) preexistence in God's mind, plans and purposes - notional preexistence 2) Literal preexistence. Jesus, God's Messiah preexisted in God's mind, plan and purposes from Genesis 3:15.
Micah - the origin of this ruler God would send would be from Bethlehem, from the tribe of Judah. The Jews would have never thought that Micah's prophecy meant the Messiah existed from eternity nor was going to be "God incarnate".
John 8:58 . . . before Abraham was born, I am he - IOW, I am the Messiah. (Many scholars have argued that it should be translated "I am he" because you have to add a predicate - have to have what or who you actually are.) The divine I AM figure in the OT is a single person namely the Father, the one true God. Jesus is not claiming to be the Father. When Jesus uses "I am" it is a self-declaration of who he is with the emphasis on "I" (ego). I am the Messiah . . . Jesus claiming to be the Messiah and the Jews believing hi to be making a false claim, pick up stones to throw at him.
Colossians 1:17 is regarding the new creation of which he is the firstborn from the dead and in everything in this new creation he is preeminent. IOW - "before all things" - in rank and superiority.
Heb. 1:10 This verse is quoted from the Septuagint text of the Old Testament, Psalm 102:25 but it is not an exact quote. In the Old Testament it applied to Yahweh, but the author of Hebrews lifted it from the Psalms and applied it to Jesus Christ fit a new context; that being "the world to come, of which we are speaking" (Heb. 2:5) God alone created the heavens and the earth.
John 1:15 John is NOT teaching the Trinity - the whole purpose of his gospel - "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book, but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:30, 31.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Christians are one body of Christ because the Spirit of Christ is in all of us.
We individually and corporately are perfected to be the stature of Christ, the stature of the man Jesus the Christ. We are not divine, we are creations and are actually part of the new creation. Jesus is divine and is before all things (Col 1) and cannot have been created since all things were created through Him. We taste of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4) but the fullness of deity dwells in Christ bodily. (Col 2:9)

I was responding to your comments quoting John 14:11 "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." and John 10:30 "I and the Father are one". Then you said - "And we know that Jesus and the Father are one 'thing'". which I think you are saying Jesus and the Father are God.
So I pointed out how Jesus prayed to God his Father in John 17 that those who would believe in him to "be one even as we are one" . . . . would that make all who believe be one "thing"?
Yes, we are the body of Christ - God in Christ dwells in us via the holy spirit. Yes, we are partakers of the divine nature. Yes, I agree that Jesus was given the spirit without measure - For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he (God) gives the Spirit (to him) without measure. John 3:34. Paul also prays for us to be filled with the fullness of God - Eph. 4:13

We could discuss that but what is the point if you do not see that Jesus lived before becoming a man. Surely the verses I gave you above show that He lived before becoming a man and humbled Himself before God His Father to become a man and become obedient through humility and suffering and death.

You are right there is probably no point because I do not believe Jesus existed before his birth. I believe in "notional preexistence" where the Son preexisted in the mind of the Father - in his plans and purposes not in a literal preexistence where the Son literally preexisted as a conscious divine being.

I am cutting off here because this is so long and will pick up with another post. I appreciate all your responses and explanations of your beliefs.

 

[THINK!]

Psalm 89:27- “I also shall make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
Col 1:15- He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

 

[amazing grace]

Micah 5:2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

John 1:15
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”



I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Christians are one body of Christ because the Spirit of Christ is in all of us.
We individually and corporately are perfected to be the stature of Christ, the stature of the man Jesus the Christ. We are not divine, we are creations and are actually part of the new creation. Jesus is divine and is before all things (Col 1) and cannot have been created since all things were created through Him. We taste of the divine nature (2Peter 1:4) but the fullness of deity dwells in Christ bodily. (Col 2:9)



We could discuss that but what is the point if you do not see that Jesus lived before becoming a man. Surely the verses I gave you above show that He lived before becoming a man and humbled Himself before God His Father to become a man and become obedient through humility and suffering and death.



If Jesus was not equal to God His Father then Jesus was not an example of humility before your equals and so it was silly to choose Jesus as an example of that.
John 5:19 is speaking about authority and shows Jesus submitting to the authority of His Father, something He does because He has the same character as His Father.
The Father does something first, like say "Let there be light" etc and the Son, the Word, creates the light. imo. That is God creating everything through the Son.
John 5:30 is about authority and humility and wanting to please His Father before going off and doing whatever He wants. Jesus not claiming more than He is, but submitting to His Father's good pleasure in all things.
John 14:28 is Jesus saying that the Father is more than the lowly man that Jesus is. It does not mean that the Father is better. Greater does not mean better.
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Jesus told the truth about who and what He is but some people have taken it the wrong way and lowered Jesus status and others have believed them. Heb 1 shows us that Jesus has the same glory as God, and God created through His Son. It says Jesus has the exact nature that His Father has, and upholds the universe by His power (which I presume He has always done, and that it was not a job given to Him after He rose from the dead)
It says that Jesus, the human Son and heir, inherited a name,,,,,,,,,,,, and that would be from His Father,,,,,,,,,, the name above all names, YHWH (Phil 2:9)

Humility is not to be displayed before "equals" but before everyone. I am to think of others as more significant than I am - IOW, no matter anyone's status no one is better than anyone else. If I am a president in a company - I have top status. I could use that status in rilvary or conceit towards others or I can relinquish that authority remaining humble in service to others. Jesus was royalty, Jesus had status but he never used that status as an advantage but remained lowly in heart in service to others - that's our example of how our attitude should be.
John 5:30 - I can do nothing on my own. - when he judged his judgment is just because he did the will of him who sent him - As he heard from the Father, he complied.
John 14:28 True, "Greater" does not mean "better". It means greater - two things compared and one is greater than the other.
Heb. 1:1-4 Yep, previously God spoke through the prophets - the prophets spoke for God but in these last days God spoke through his Son - His Son spoke for Him. He appointed Jesus "heir of all things" - the one who gives the inheritance is not the one who receives the inheritance so Jesus cannot be God. Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature - an exact imprint (copy, facsimile, imprint) is not the original, i.e. this is not saying Jesus is God but Jesus fully expresses God. Yep, God highly exalted him and set him at his own right hand - if Jesus is God - is God sitting at God's right hand? Yes, he became superior to the angels.
Yes, Jesus told the truth about who and what he is but some people have exalted Jesus' status as Almighty God and lowered Almighty God to one of his created beings. Jesus did not have anything to do with the creation of the heavens and earth in the beginning but he has alot to do with the creation of the age to come establishing the kingdom of God.
Yes, God highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth . . . and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes of course God is above humans and does not lie like we do, and that is what He meant, and His divine Son did not lie like us humans because of His divine character.
But of course Jesus was, is, the Son of God and the whole of God did not become a man, in fact Jesus said that the Father is the only true God and that He is in His Father and one with Him.
So really your whole argument is moot unless Jesus is the totality of God.

Jesus did not sin - not because he was God - but because he submitted himself in obedience to God his Father. Throughout scripture Jesus is set forth as a man - compared to Adam and placed as an example for us.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus was a man and as such was tempted like any man. If He overcame those temptations then He overcame the world. If He actually was tempted like any man then it is not a small thing to say no to actual temptation.
But let's just assume for a split second that the temptations were nothing to Jesus because of His Divinity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, what difference does that make about anything?
Are you saying that the temptations had to be excruciatingly hard or it did not count, or something?
Jesus was tempted by Satan who also wanted to test Him to see if he could make Him sin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but there was no question about the outcome, God prophesied that outcome many years before, God was not testing Jesus to see if He was good enough. God His Father knew He was good enough to overcome the world.

Well, I find it sometimes really hard to resist temptations and I know there are alot of people who feel the same. The reality is that all sin and even after becoming a Christian, people sin. So, to me for Jesus to be tempted as we are and remain without ANY sin - is a BIG deal. Yet, if he were God and God cannot even be tempted with evil (wrong doing) that is NOT "being tempted as we are".

For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. Heb. 2:18
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Heb. 4:15

tempted: peirazo - is used for (1) tempting and (2) testing (i.e., trying, examining, proving); its semantic range also includes (3) “attempting to do something,” and (4) trying to “entrap through a process of inquiry,” such as the Pharisees testing Jesus with questions. What would clarify the meaning would depend upon the circumstance and especially the motive behind the one who is tempting, testing, attempting, etc. There is a distinction between testing and tempting: testing comes from a desire to see the person prove himself true, to pass the test, and to gain confidence from the victory; temptation, on the other hand, is when evil is placed before someone in hope that he or she will fail. Thus God doesn't tempt people but he does test people. (Gen 22:1) God tests in order to reward or bring about good.

Are you saying that Jesus couldn't have sinned?

 

[Brian2]

What was the purpose of God creating all things if he then becomes one in creation himself in order to save mankind and become ruler of creation?

You don’t see that as ridiculous - in fact, pagan?

It's just the Bible story. By definition it is not pagan.
God created everything and man's sinning became a hiccup in it all, but God knew it would happen and had the plan worked out of sending His Son. You believe this pagan story no doubt.
Those who see the Son as being Divine, more than a creation of God, also see the plan as incorporating the Son being able to save us from the death in sin (by stepping into the creation and dying as a sinless sacrifice) but still retain the glory that was and is His.

I thought Christianity was supposed to be Anti-Pagan.., left behind when Abraham left his pagan Father and the worthless worship of his family idols!! You make Jesus Christ into one of those idols by your claim or reality of worshipping him - AGAINST THE STATEMENTS FROM JESUS himself:

• ‘Worship GOD!!’

Even as you claim Jesus is EQUAL to GOD, the statement:

• ‘Worship GOD [who is The Father] and only to Him give sacred service’

does not mean:

• ‘and worship His equal, two!!’

I see the Father as the only true God and in Him is His Son and His Spirit. If I worship the Father, the only true God, I am also worshipping the Son and the Spirit who are in Him.
Not 3 Gods, but one God incorporating 3 persons.

 

[Brian2]

Psalm 89:27- “I also shall make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.
Col 1:15- He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

It's hard to know what you are wanting to say when you just make those 2 quotes without a comment.

 

[Oeste]

he "Son of Man" and the "Son of God" are considered titles.

I was under the impression that you were a JW by your prior remarks, but this comment and your prior remarks show you deviate substantially from WT Christology.

If I emphasise the first Adam it is because it says that he "became" something, and it is assumed that this is what is meant also in 1Cor 15:45 when it speaks of the last Adam being a life giving spirit. So some translations say He became a life giving spirit whereas He was a life giving spirit before He became a human and remained so while a human with a physical body also.

I don't agree that "became human"; he was born a human being.

You explicitly disagreed with Brian2 that Jesus "became human" whereas the Watchtower explicitly says otherwise. I quote my source below.

The second comes when you state "Son of Man" is just a title whilst the WT also says otherwise, quoting from the same source:

Source

The WT states, quite explicitly that Jesus BECAME a human and that “Son of man” is an expression and not a “title”. Specifically, that the “Son of man” is an expression describing Jesus’ nature as a "fleshly human", and not simply a title earned or conferred upon him by engaging in certain activities, presumably later in life.

So, if you are a JW, I congratulate you on your capacity to think independently, as it would be reminiscent of the Bereans. However, I believe in this instance the WT is actually correct when it states Jesus became human as I see no evidence he was human prior to his incarnation. I also agree with them that "Son of Man" is a expression or reference to Jesus’s nature.

So it appears that the Watchtower agrees more with Brian2 and myself than it does with you. This is NOT a problem if you are NOT a JW. In that case, it's simply a "So what if the WT says that, it has nothing to do with me" which is fine. If you are giving personal opinions, or the opinion of a specific church, I encourage you to express it here, as this forum appears to welcome all voices.

However, if you ARE a JW, it most certainly will incur certain benefits, as you will INSTANTLY see and agree with what Brian, @InChrist and I have posted on this specific matter, and any prior disagreement will instantly dissolve as if it never existed. In fact, you may even chide yourself for not believing our earlier statements, or for not reading your WT's more carefully.

Lastly, it also means we can expect @Eli G to agrees that Jesus "became human" in order to be "born" as a human being.

So once again, we might find ourselves "in agreement" on at least two different matters, leaving @Soapy, (who stated his belief the Father and Satan had a hand in mankind's creation), as our unsurprising outlier.

Unfortunately, this potential agreement with you on whether Jesus "became human", and our almost certain agreement with Eli G on this, does not mean we can gather around the campfire and sing "kumbaya". There is also the matter of doctrinal consistency, which is something you just don't get with "proof-texts".

So, using a consistent hermeneutic, the "Son of Man" is an expression of Christ's human nature, and the Son of God" is an expression of Christ's Divine nature. That is, he is fully man, and fully God. Man, because he was born to a woman, and God, as His only begotten Son.

With "proof texts", the ability to derive a logical and consistent hermeneutic will vary, as demonstrated by a somewhat surprising inability to logically conclude a simple thought experiment I posted earlier.

 

[Brian2]

There are two types of Jewish preexistence - 1) preexistence in God's mind, plans and purposes - notional preexistence 2) Literal preexistence. Jesus, God's Messiah preexisted in God's mind, plan and purposes from Genesis 3:15.
Micah - the origin of this ruler God would send would be from Bethlehem, from the tribe of Judah. The Jews would have never thought that Micah's prophecy meant the Messiah existed from eternity nor was going to be "God incarnate".
John 8:58 . . . before Abraham was born, I am he - IOW, I am the Messiah. (Many scholars have argued that it should be translated "I am he" because you have to add a predicate - have to have what or who you actually are.) The divine I AM figure in the OT is a single person namely the Father, the one true God. Jesus is not claiming to be the Father. When Jesus uses "I am" it is a self-declaration of who he is with the emphasis on "I" (ego). I am the Messiah . . . Jesus claiming to be the Messiah and the Jews believing hi to be making a false claim, pick up stones to throw at him.
Heb. 1:10 This verse is quoted from the Septuagint text of the Old Testament, Psalm 102:25 but it is not an exact quote. In the Old Testament it applied to Yahweh, but the author of Hebrews lifted it from the Psalms and applied it to Jesus Christ fit a new context; that being "the world to come, of which we are speaking" (Heb. 2:5) God alone created the heavens and the earth.
John 1:15 John is NOT teaching the Trinity - the whole purpose of his gospel - "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book, but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20:30, 31.

I would say that the idea of sending Jesus existed in God's mind from before Gen 3:15 and in fact Micah 5:2 says that His goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity. So we see that the Son has literally been going forth from eternity,,,,,,,,,,,, and it seems that it does mean from eternity because of the doubling up of what is said. (days of long ago, days of eternity)
If it just meant "in the mind of God" then it really says nothing except that a ruler will come from Bethlehem. Everyone, after all, has been in the mind of God from eternity.
Anyone literally from eternity imo is God since only God is from eternity.
The Divine "I am" is YHWH and it had yet to be fully revealed that YHWH was a trinity. The Jews of Jesus day certainly saw Jesus as being blasphemous and wanted to stone Him at John 8:58. They saw Jesus as claiming divinity. That was one of the things they said about Him, that being a man, He made Himself God.
I don't think it was a case of misunderstanding what Jesus meant, an ambiguous statement by Jesus is not a good reason to kill Him. Also just making a false statement is no reason to stone someone.
Heb 1:10 is about YHWH in the Psalm and is applied to Jesus in the epistle, and that it appears to say that it was God speaking about Jesus in the OT quote.
Nothing about it being about the new creation in Hebrews, and the New Creation is not going to grow old and be rolled up, so no it is not speaking about the New Creation.
The John 1:15 quote I gave was just another quote saying (as the other quotes were also showing) that Jesus was alive before His birth. John the Baptist was older than Jesus but said that Jesus came before him.

I was responding to your comments quoting John 14:11 "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." and John 10:30 "I and the Father are one". Then you said - "And we know that Jesus and the Father are one 'thing'". which I think you are saying Jesus and the Father are God.
So I pointed out how Jesus prayed to God his Father in John 17 that those who would believe in him to "be one even as we are one" . . . . would that make all who believe be one "thing"?
Yes, we are the body of Christ - God in Christ dwells in us via the holy spirit. Yes, we are partakers of the divine nature. Yes, I agree that Jesus was given the spirit without measure - For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he (God) gives the Spirit (to him) without measure. John 3:34. Paul also prays for us to be filled with the fullness of God - Eph. 4:13

Yes, Jesus and the Father are one thing,,,,,,,,,,, one God. Is there anything else than one God?
Yes all believers are one thing, the body of Christ, the Temple which Jesus is building.
I don't see that Eph 4:13 is about us being filled with the fullness of God.
Col 2:9 says in Christ dwells the fullness of deity bodily. Later is says that we also have a fullness. There is no lack in Christ, and so we lack nothing.

You are right there is probably no point because I do not believe Jesus existed before his birth. I believe in "notional preexistence" where the Son preexisted in the mind of the Father - in his plans and purposes not in a literal preexistence where the Son literally preexisted as a conscious divine being.

I am cutting off here because this is so long and will pick up with another post. I appreciate all your responses and explanations of your beliefs.

Having a notional preexistence for Christ is not a sentence, it surely is not hard to read those preexisting scriptures in the natural literal way,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but I guess it requires changing your whole view of Christ and who He is and understanding a lot of other scriptures in a different way.
Once we have a wrong view of a small number of scriptures it can have a large impact on how we read many other scriptures.
The apostolic fathers did see Jesus as God however and that should help us decide on the meaning of the Bible scriptures.

 

[Oeste]

Make up your mind: or the Wisdom in Prov. 8 is literally a woman or not ...

I’ve made it clear the Wisdom in Prov. 8 is a great example of an encomium. As such, the woman is not literal.

If it is not literally a woman and it is just a symbol of something or someone, the sex is not literal and your supposedly necessary sex transition of the Wisdom of God to be an impersonation of the Logos of God is nothing more than stupidity ...

I couldn’t agree with you more!

Which is why I don’t believe the woman is literal. Let’s looks at Proverbs 8 again, using terms you've used before:

It “is nothing more than stupidity” to believe Jesus was literally a woman because Proverbs 8: 2-3 casts Wisdom as a “she”:

At the highest point along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gate leading into the city,
at the entrance, she cries aloud:

Likewise it “is nothing more than stupidity” to believe Jesus literally “dwelled with someone named Prudence” simply because Psalm 8:12: says Wisdom did the same:

I, Wisdom, dwell together with Prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.


Also, it “is nothing more than stupidity” to believe Jesus cries in the streets, or raises his voice in the markets simply because Proverbs 1:20 says this is something Wisdom does:

Wisdom cries aloud in the street,
in the markets she raises her voice;

Which leads us to conclude that it “is nothing more than stupidity” to believe Jesus was created, simply because Proverbs 8:22 says the Lord brought Wisdom forth:

“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

In short, if you can see the stupidity in making Jesus a woman because Wisdom is a “she”, then you can see the same obvious stupidity in making Jesus “created” because Wisdom was “formed”.

otherwise you are internally very inconsistent and don't even notice it.

Exactly Eli, except I am not the one who has been inconsistent without realizing it. When you take the position that Proverbs 8:22 means a created Jesus, then you also take the position Jesus is a woman. Anyone taking the absurd position that Proverbs 8:22-31 shows a literally created Jesus should also be taking the position that Jesus is a woman as per Proverbs 8:2-3....IF they are being "internally very consistent".

Also, in the Christian Greek Scriptures there is enough information about Jesus before he was born as a human to ascertain if the description in Prov.8:22-31 matches or not... And you know what? They coincide. Read Col. 1:15-18, for example.

You are "proof-texting" again. Let's stay focused on what Proverbs says about Wisdom. It specifically states Wisdom is a woman who cries aloud in the streets and dwells with someone named Prudence. I am not going to find anything in Col 1: 15-18 that confirms Jesus does any of this, and we don't get to pick and choose which parts of Lady Wisdom apply to Jesus and which parts do not.


Continued....