Jesus - First Born?

[Eli G]

Thanks Eli G, but the question should be addressed (posted to) BRIAN2.

One moment (for him) Jesus is God.
The next moment Jesus is a man with all human frailties.
And yet in a further moment (for him) Jesus is YHWH, the Father…

This is quite normal squibble for Trinitarians ideology. Their belief is so flexible and stretchable it makes ‘Stretch Armstrong’ seem like a steel bar!!

I understand. Apologies for my intrusion.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus was a man, who lived in heavens before, so he is called God's First-Born and the Scriptures say that "thorugh him" God created the rest of the Universe. That would not be true if Jesus had not been at God's side when the Universe was being created.

Hb. 1:2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

The scriptures say that through His Son God created all things.
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
So the Son cannot have been created or made. The Son has always been with His Father and has always been the exact image of His Father.
Isa 44:24 “This is what the YHWH—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the Lord,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,

Hebrews 1:10 And “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,

and the heavens are the work of your hands;

11 they will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment,

12 like a robe you will roll them up,

like a garment they will be changed.1

But you are vthe same,

and your years will have no end.”

Isa 44:24 and Hebrews 1:10 together show that Jesus is YHWH, imo and this is just 2 verses of many which show the same thing.
The Son was with the Father and the Spirit of God and all 3 are YHWH, the one God.

 

[Soapy]

I believe that the pre human Son of God, who had and kept the nature of His Father, was sent to be born as a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As a man Jesus is the Son of God, but has the Divine nature of His Father as well as having the nature of a servant, a man.
As the Son and heir who is exactly like His Father, Jesus inherits what belongs to the Father, and that includes the Father's name.

Num 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hosea 11:9 I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I devastate Ephraim again.
For I am God, and not a man—
the Holy One among you.

Neither of these say that God cannot become a man.
As a man Jesus did not lie or change His mind because He was the perfect man, the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation. He is the firstfruits of the new creation, the last Adam whom we take after in our own imperfect way.

Oh BRIAN2…

If GOD became a man then how could he uphold his own words which say:

• ‘For I am God, and not a man…’!

 

[Soapy]

I understand. Apologies for my intrusion.

No worries, I think he read it anyway.

 

[Brian2]

Oh BRIAN2…

If GOD became a man then how could he uphold his own words which say:

• ‘For I am God, and not a man…’!

Being a man and becoming a man are 2 different things.
When I was 60 years old I could say, "I am not 70 years old". When I became 70 years old, that does not mean that I lied when I said I was not 70 years old.
Such simple things and you don't seem to be able to understand them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, who has blinded you?

 

[Eli G]

Being a man and becoming a man are 2 different things.
When I was 60 years old I could say, "I am not 70 years old". When I became 70 years old, that does not mean that I lied when I said I was not 70 years old.
Such simple things and you don't seem to be able to understand them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, who has blinded you?

Then who was the One who said about Jesus “This is my Son, the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.” to Peter, John and James? (Luke 9:35)

 

[Brian2]

Thanks Eli G, but the question should be addressed (posted to) BRIAN2.

One moment (for him) Jesus is God.
The next moment Jesus is a man with all human frailties.
And yet in a further moment (for him) Jesus is YHWH, the Father…

This is quite normal squibble for Trinitarians ideology. Their belief is so flexible and stretchable it makes ‘Stretch Armstrong’ seem like a steel bar!!

Jesus is not the Father but the scriptures tell us that both the Son and the Father are YHWH.
Jesus did not have human frailties until He became a human.
Jesus has the same nature as His Father all through His prehuman life and His earthly life and now also.

I have said these things so often and yet you like to misrepresent what I have said, or maybe you have been blinded to what I say.

 

[Soapy]

Being a man and becoming a man are 2 different things.
When I was 60 years old I could say, "I am not 70 years old". When I became 70 years old, that does not mean that I lied when I said I was not 70 years old.
Such simple things and you don't seem to be able to understand them,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, who has blinded you?

Rubbish. No one was talking about AGE. Age is chronological. The BEING of a person has nothing to do with AGE!

A human being is a human being no matter what age they are.

God is Spirit and REMAINS SPIRIT ETERNALLY.

[edited…]
Jesus is man and is only ever addressed as man. Jesus Christ was addressed as man and even in relation to God:

• ‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)

God carried out the miracles THROUGH the man, Jesus Christ. This ‘Through’ is the energy of the SPIRIT of God which GOD anointed Jesus with at the baptism at the river Jordan:

• “You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached—how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:36-38)

The acts of Jesus were because of the Father’s Spirit EMPOWERING him. Jesus, even Jesus, declares that he did were because of the Father (God) working in him… and even the things Jesus says, are the words of the Father (God) … not his own!

• “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)
• “For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.” (John 12:49)

 

[Brian2]

Then who was the One who said about Jesus “This is my Son, the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.” to Peter, John and James? (Luke 9:35)

Jesus Father said that about Jesus.
The Father and the Son who has the same nature as His Father.
The Father is the one true God and the Spirit and Son who have their source in the Father and are in Him are called YHWH in scripture, just as the Father is called YHWH.
The Son is not the Father, but as Jesus said, the Father and the Son are one, meaning they are one thing, one God, YHWH.

 

[Eli G]

Jesus is not the Father but the scriptures tell us that both the Son and the Father are YHWH.
...

That is false. Again:

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah (Is. 61:1,2; Hb. 4:27)
2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised (Dt. 18:15-18; Acts 3:22-26)
3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him (Psal. 110:1,2; Eph. 1:17-23)
4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek (Psal. 110:4; Hb. 5:6,10)
5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir (Psal. 2:8; Hb. 1:2)
6) Jehovah stated Jesus Christ is His Son (Psal. 2:7; Hb. 5:5)

Jesus said to the Jews:

John 8:54 (...) “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

... and Paul said:

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 (...) God is one (...)

Peter also said:

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you handed over and disowned before Pilate, even though he had decided to release him.

So, if you don't know how to distinguish between Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and of Jacob, and of Moses, etc ... and Jesus, his Son, you are really very lost in your own unscriptural ideas

 

[Soapy]

Jesus is not the Father but the scriptures tell us that both the Son and the Father are YHWH.
Jesus did not have human frailties until He became a human.
Jesus has the same nature as His Father all through His prehuman life and His earthly life and now also.

I have said these things so often and yet you like to misrepresent what I have said, or maybe you have been blinded to what I say.

Now you are getting desperate.

 

[Brian2]

Rubbish. No one was talking about AGE. Age is chronological. The BEING of a person has nothing to do with AGE!

A human being is a human being no matter what age they are.

God is Spirit and REMAINS SPIRIT ETERNALLY.

Jesus is man and is only ever addressed as man. Even Jesus Christ addresses himself as man and even in relation to God:

• ‘A man who heard it from God’

Stop making things up about what God can and cannot do.
But of course you think I am saying that the Father became a man. That is weird when I have told you so many times that the Father is not the Son.

 

[Soapy]

Are you one who has the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Christ who is the Truth?

You are the one who has not these things which is why you’d posts are so varied in ideology and stretched out of all proportions in respected of cohesiveness.

 

[Eli G]

You are the one who has not these things which is why you’d posts are so varied in ideology and stretched out of all proportions in respected of cohesiveness.

Some people believe that the more incomprehensible and crazy their beliefs seem, the more "revealing and illuminating" they are.

 

[Soapy]

Stop making things up about what God can and cannot do.
But of course you think I am saying that the Father became a man. That is weird when I have told you so many times that the Father is not the Son.

Brian2, you know nothing of what you are saying.

A man can create a ‘world’… but he doesn’t put HIMSELF into that world - he doesn’t BECOME an entity in that world. The man, the CREATOR of that world, the FATHER of that creation, THE GOD of that world - NEVER becomes himself part of that worlds. The man can put his SPIRIT in the world he created. The nature of the man - his version of truth - his ways of doing things - his desire - his pleasure - his sorrow and concept of good and bad and hero and demon etc - He can allow the entities in his world to be like him or not like him … These days it’s call ‘META WORLD’.

God, the Father of this world, the creator , created this world and never become a species in this world. God can and has put his SPIRIT into the world BUT he himself never leaves his ethereal place.

But it sounds like you are slowly realising his wrong you are and it frightens you.

Well , Good. That means that now you can start learning the truth and feel the joy of knowing that from them on you will see the glory of the true God.

 

[Brian2]

That is false. Again:

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah (Is. 61:1,2; Hb. 4:27)
2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised (Dt. 18:15-18; Acts 3:22-26)
3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him (Psal. 110:1,2; Eph. 1:17-23)
4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek (Psal. 110:4; Hb. 5:6,10)
5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir (Psal. 2:8; Hb. 1:2)
6) Jehovah stated Jesus Christ is His Son (Psal. 2:7; Hb. 5:5)

Jesus said to the Jews:

John 8:54 (...) “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God. 55 Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word.

... and Paul said:

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 (...) God is one (...)

Peter also said:

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you handed over and disowned before Pilate, even though he had decided to release him.

So, if you don't know how to distinguish between Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and of Jacob, and of Moses, etc ... and Jesus, his Son, you are really very lost in your own unscriptural ideas

You look at passages that suggest that the Son is not YHWH and allow those passages to blind you to the ones that suggest that the Son is YHWH.
What you need to do is open your eyes to both,,,,,,,,,,,,,, all the truth.

 

[Eli G]

You look at passages that suggest that the Son is not YHWH and allow those passages to blind you to the ones that suggest that the Son is YHWH.
What you need to do is open your eyes to both,,,,,,,,,,,,,, all the truth.

So you say, that the Scriptures I just quoted are not the truth, and I should "open my eyes" to your beliefs opposite to those Scriptures ...
That's disturbing, that you think you are the truth and not what the Scriptures say

 

[amazing grace]

I believe that the pre human Son of God, who had and kept the nature of His Father, was sent to be born as a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "the pre human Son of God". Jesus was sent by God via a normal human birth.
Philippians 2 is teaching us to have the attitude of humility that Christ had. He emptied himself of all his reputation and the things due him because of his royal status being from the line of David and as the Messiah, the anointed Son of God but remained humble as a servant, obedient to his Father even to the point of death and because of this his Father, the one true God, highly exalted him, placing him at His own right hand - all to glorify God.

As a man Jesus is the Son of God, but has the Divine nature of His Father as well as having the nature of a servant, a man.
As the Son and heir who is exactly like His Father, Jesus inherits what belongs to the Father, and that includes the Father's name.

Why not just say "Jesus is God" instead of "Jesus has the essential nature of God"? Of course God has the essential nature of God! Also does not say "Jesus, being God" but rather "being in the form of God" reminding us that Jesus fully represented the Father in every possible way. (morphe - outward appearance Bullinger, Thayer, Kittle) Yes, Jesus is the Son of God (not God the Son). Yes, Jesus is an heir of God and we are joint heirs with him and yes, Jesus was exactly like his Father because he always did his Father's will. There is only one true God and that is the Father.

Num 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Hosea 11:9 I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I devastate Ephraim again.
For I am God, and not a man—
the Holy One among you.

Neither of these say that God cannot become a man.
As a man Jesus did not lie or change His mind because He was the perfect man, the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation. He is the firstfruits of the new creation, the last Adam whom we take after in our own imperfect way.

Correct, they don't say "God cannot become a man" BUT they absolutely state God is NOT a man. Correct, Jesus did not lie but that verse, Numbers 23:19, is not talking about Jesus. Correct, Jesus was the perfect man - always being obedient to his Father. Did Jesus ever battle within himself when it came to doing his Father's will? All mankind was created in the image of God. Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation being the firstborn from the dead, i.e. firstfruits of the new creation. And when he returns, we will bear his image - we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is - this is our hope.

 

[Oeste]

I got you ... You do think that Wisdom in Prov. 8 is literally a woman.
Yes, now I understand how you think.

No, I've been pretty clear. I think Proverbs 8 is an encomium. It's a metaphor, so it cannot possibly be understood to be literal. The author is simply giving praise. It is not a history lesson on how Jesus was created.

I guess you do think that Wickedness in Zech. 5:5-8 is literally a woman also.

There's no need to guess when you can ask.

Maybe are you only applying certain criteria when it suits you and no when it doesn't?

All I see is a guess followed by a maybe, both applied to me.

We were discussing Proverbs 8. I much rather we go back to it. There is no need to expand this discussion to include guesses and maybe's about me.

As I said: this is not about winning a competition.

Yes, you did say this before, didn't you? And now you're repeating it again. Let's take a sidebar for a moment.

SIDEBAR

​

I seem to recall going to a meeting once Eli, where they claimed we were all in a competitive race. In fact, they claimed we were in a race for our very lives, and we needed to finish and win this race.​

​

In fact, here it is:​

​

​

In fact, "Study Article 18" extolls it's readers to think of this race as an Olympic marathon. So it's quite disconcerting to hear a WT article saying we need to "endure to the end", but hearing from you that no one need compete. How does one get the prize who hasn't competed?​

​

Be honest to yourself​

​

This statement of yours is based on what? Nothing more than your prior "guess" and "maybe" as shown above the Sidebar.​

​

You do not cite a single instance where I have not been honest with myself. Like Soapy, it appears you've simply created a vat of innuendo, slowly stirred from thin air, which merrily gets tossed into the ether, hoping it will gain some stickiness in whatever thread it lands in.​

​

But since you brought up the question of honesty, have you been honest with us? If so, why the encouragement for me to slow down my race while your religion encourages you to up the game on yours? Are you trying to teach our dear readers something you would never teach yourself?​

​

Source​

​

The article states everyone is competing in a contest; that sound like a competition to me. It states we should vigorously expend ourselves to win this race, but you tell us this is not about winning a competition at all:​

​

As I said: this is not about winning a competition​

​

So who do we believe? The Watchtower or @Eli G?​

It also tells me that our crowns can perish. So what happens to my crown if I take your advice and fail to win my race?​

​

Who is being honest here Eli? Me to myself, or you to us? From the WT's perspective, I most certainly am in a race, and as far back as I can remember I do not recall the advice you gave me being preached in the Kingdom Halls. Back then, discerning scriptural truth and accuracy was always touted as part of the race, so I am not sure why you would twice suggest anything different here.​

​

And to be frank, I do not like to bring up or discuss issues of personal integrity, as discussions generally go downhill rather rapidly, especially when neither party knows the other personally. I find it better to either affirm or attack the post than it is the poster.​

​

But enough with sidebars already! Let's get back to Proverbs 8.​

End Sidebar

Besides, when you said "we don't believe Jesus is the wisdom of Proverb's 8" I don't have any idea of who you are referring to.

"We" simply means that whatever was presented was not only my personal opinion. There are a lot of personal opinions on this forum; I understand personal opinion and encourage everyone to freely express it. But personal opinion doesn't carry the same weight of peered reviewed articles or established church doctrine, especially when that doctrine is shared amongst a majority of churches who consider scripture as authoritative.

In other words, despite occasional opinions to the contrary, the vast majority of Christian Churches consider the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 as encomium, and not as some "proof text" that shows a created woman named Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "the pre human Son of God". Jesus was sent by God via a normal human birth.
Philippians 2 is teaching us to have the attitude of humility that Christ had. He emptied himself of all his reputation and the things due him because of his royal status being from the line of David and as the Messiah, the anointed Son of God but remained humble as a servant, obedient to his Father even to the point of death and because of this his Father, the one true God, highly exalted him, placing him at His own right hand - all to glorify God.

Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Jesus was in the form of God and then took the form of a servant and became a man. That's what it says isn't it. It certainly looks as if it is speaking of the mind of the pre human Christ, who decided to humble Himself and become a man and be obedient.
John 17:4 I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
This is Jesus saying that He had glory in the presence of God His Father before the world existed. Isn't it?

Why not just say "Jesus is God" instead of "Jesus has the essential nature of God"? Of course God has the essential nature of God! Also does not say "Jesus, being God" but rather "being in the form of God" reminding us that Jesus fully represented the Father in every possible way. (morphe - outward appearance Bullinger, Thayer, Kittle) Yes, Jesus is the Son of God (not God the Son). Yes, Jesus is an heir of God and we are joint heirs with him and yes, Jesus was exactly like his Father because he always did his Father's will. There is only one true God and that is the Father.

I find it more complex than just saying that Jesus is God. Jesus does not call Himself God but the Son of God and the Son of Man. He has both the nature of God His Father and the nature of a man.
If I called Jesus "God" then you might decide that I am saying that Jesus is the Father, the one true God, but I am not saying that. I say about Jesus, what He said about Himself. He said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." He said,"I and the Father are one".
So if I could see the Father I would know that the Son is in Him.
And we know that Jesus and the Father are one "thing". I can't think of anything else that Jesus may have meant than one God.
IOW Jesus did not want us to say that Jesus is a separate God to His Father, not 2 Gods, but one God.
I hear there is debate over the meaning of "morphe" in Phil 2 and it's use with the Greek word "shema" there. Nevertheless whatever it means, we can see in Phil 2 that having the form of God made Jesus equal to God, before He became a man, and He did not mind giving this equality up for the sake of obedience to His Father.
The Phil 2 passage is about humility between equals after all, and about Jesus humility before His equal, His Father.
The Father is the one true God because His Spirit and His Son (who is His equal) have their source in Him, the Father.
The Son is the Son because His life comes from His Father, (and that is the way it has been always,) but not because He was created by the Father at any time.

Correct, they don't say "God cannot become a man" BUT they absolutely state God is NOT a man. Correct, Jesus did not lie but that verse, Numbers 23:19, is not talking about Jesus. Correct, Jesus was the perfect man - always being obedient to his Father. Did Jesus ever battle within himself when it came to doing his Father's will? All mankind was created in the image of God. Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation being the firstborn from the dead, i.e. firstfruits of the new creation. And when he returns, we will bear his image - we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is - this is our hope.

So are you saying that if God became a man that He might lie or change His mind?
But Jesus is exactly life His Father and did not sin at all.
What I am doing is looking at the whole verse and seeing what it means overall. It is talking about what God is like, He is not like a man in those respects.
What you seem to be doing is taking one part of the verse out, and making it about that part,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, as if God is saying. "I am not a man and will never be one".
Hosea 11:9 is God saying that He is Holy and does not act on His strong feelings like men do. It is not about God not being a man or never becoming a man.
IOWs I don't think that it can be said that Jesus was not God just because He was/is a man.