Brian2
Veteran Member
Lower means of lower rank. Jesus became a man, a man is of lower rank than the angels,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, at the moment.
Wake up, that is an easy one. But I guess you have not much to work with so you need to try everything.
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Jesus - First Born?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
Lower means of lower rank. Jesus became a man, a man is of lower rank than the angels,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, at the moment.
Wake up, that is an easy one. But I guess you have not much to work with so you need to try everything.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Are you saying that God granted Jesus to become a life giving spirit, or what are you saying was granted to Jesus?
It is true to Jesus became a man, lower than the angels, and it is through God working through Him that He could do miracles.
When He rose from the dead He rose as a man with a spiritual body (not as a spirit).
When He rose from the dead He also in Spirit consciously filled all things as He did before becoming a man, and just as the Holy Spirit does and the Father.
Eph 4:10 He who descended is the very One who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things.
The Lord is the life giving Spirit who comes to dwell in us, just as the Father is that Spirit and the Spirit is that Spirit. We can see that Jesus went back to consciously be that life giving Spirit that He was before becoming a man.
2Cor 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.…
So after His resurrection Jesus is a man but is also God.
And He also said that He would come with the Father and dwell with those who love Him and keep His commandments. (John 14:23)
There is one Spirit (Eph 4:4-9) So Jesus and the Father are in and are the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Liberty------------- they are all the one Spirit.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Jesus did not become a man. He was born like all human beings but specifically in the order of Adam - which is, ‘Sinless’ and ‘Holy’, ‘dust of the earth’ brought to life through the inspiriting by the spirit of God:
- ‘The spirit of God will overshadow you [the virgin] and THEREFORE the child to be born SHALL BE CALLED HOLY; A Son of God’
The virgin was chosen because by this no man can claim that it was his sperm that enlivened the seed of Mary.
For this reason, Jesus is called: ‘The LAST ADAM’ since no other man would ever be created this way.
For thirty years Jesus was ‘in training’ for his mission. He did no miracles, he created no fuss to anyone, he was dutiful to his earthly parents.
Then he was called (Sent) by God to fulfil the purpose of his being: He was BAPTISED with the Spirit of God: The Holy Spirit, as many call it - the holy oil - NOT A PERSON …
(P.s. ‘I and the Father are one’ does not include the spirit of God… TWO is not THREE!!
However, the true meaning is that JESUS’ PERSONAL SPIRIT AGREES WITH THE FATHER’S SPIRIT.)
I really do wonder what purpose there is for you posting these irreverent ideas. You clearly know you are posting absurdities but finding amusing to be a tease! Do you understand what this makes you? Are you willing to continue to be such a person and knowing the consequences of what you are saying and doing?
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Brian2, you know that it was GOD (your trinity ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’) that granted Jesus to become a living spirit by virtue of being REBORN into a Spiritual body after shedding his mortal body:
- ‘As the Father has life in him, so he grants that the son should have life in him also’
- This is conducive with: ‘I can only do what I see the Father doing’! It is the Father who first raised the dead.. (See the miracles of Elisha and Elijah pertaining to widows sons) and the raising up of Lazarus. It was not Jesus that raised up Lazarus - Jesus gave told the people that if was by the Will of God - which is The Father. Jesus, again, was only the instrument through which the Father raised Lazarus just as Elisha and Elijah were the instrument through which the widows sins were raised up. Jesus’ time to ‘Do as the Father does’ comes at the end of time at the judgement seat
Jesus DID NOT BECOME A MAN… he was born a man, lower than the angels, because all mankind in this age are lower than the angels - in power, in intelligence, and in duty to God. Jesus GREW in duty and intelligence, and finally, in power to be GREATER than the angels. He was mortal, angels are not mortal. He was a physical being, subject to thirst, tiredness, limited to one space and place in a moment, he COULD sin and be forgiven (though he did not sin)… angels are Spirit beings who do not hunger and thirst nor are limited to one place and space in s moment and, they do not sin ELSE their punishment is ETERNAL DEATH… there is no forgiveness for angels who sin.
Jesus’ POWER came AFTER he was ANOINTED with holy oil… which MARKED HIM OUT FOR KINGSHIP AND PRIESTHOOD. Not only that but being so anointed gave him access to USE OF THE SPIRIT IF THE FATHER - the so-called ‘Holy Spirit’ which, as Jesus says that he always prays to the Father before he carries out a miracle - though he does it silently and privately except on the one occasion of raising up Lazarus EXACTLY because he wanted the people (and history) to know that it was by the power of the Father that this was done: ‘These things you see me do ARE BECAUSE OF THE FATHER WORKING IN ME!’
Brian2, why you messing like this… OF COURSE he was not a Spirit being (like an angel or demon) when God raised him from the dead. Was Lazarus a Spirit being? What was the purpose of saying that?
And ‘Filled all things’… what are you talking about. Where is the context to ‘Filling all things’? It’s an obscure term which, when read with the attendant following verses, tells that Jesus became ALL THINGS towards the ‘CHURCH’ (the congregation of believers), and the ORDER of leaders within: Bishops, priests, deacons, pastors, etc… by their order. You conveniently decided to ignore any context because you thought you had a ‘Winner’… oh tut!
Brian2, where do you come from and where are you going? Are you just a Devil’s Advocate?
Brian2….
Brian2, you really have no idea what you just said….!!!
So, once again, you express a BINITY (Father and Son) as One God… and all this time I was calling you a Trinitarian - but you are really a Binitarian!!
And not only that but you are expressing Pentecostalism with The Father and the Sin being The Holy Spirit…:
- You said: “There is one Spirit (Eph 4:4-9) So Jesus and the Father are in and are the Holy Spirit”
Jesus Christ tells us (in verse 24 that you didn’t mention) that the words you hear him speak ARE THOSE OF HIM who sent him: the Father!!
That means that Jesus Christ is expressing the words of the Father - that Jesus Christ AGREES with the words of the Father. So the SPIRIT in the words of the Father are ECHOED by Jesus Christ. It is the SPIRIT of the Father AND the Spirit of Jesus Christ that will come and dwell WITH OUR SPIRIT. GOD himself never ‘COMES’ anywhere at any time!! God SENDS His MESSENGERS; SENDS His SERVANTS; SENDS His SPIRIT… but HE HIMSELF never leaves his ethereal Heavenly throne - His ethereal place of rulership!
Jesus Christ’s OWN SPIRIT AGREES with that of the Father’s Spirit, as is encouraged that OUR OWN SPIRIT should come to agree with the Spirit of Jesus Christ (which takes into account weakness in the flesh) and agree with the Father’s Spirit (which is total truth and righteousness)
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
I thought we were having a discussion about Proverbs 8, so I 'm not sure what it was in my post that gave you that idea.
I believe I do understand, hopefully you will too.
Are you asking metaphorically or literally? You failed to cite a specific scripture so I have to ask.
The church is metaphorically described as a bride. We can no more understand the church to be an actual, literal woman wearing a wedding dress anymore than we can understand the Wisdom of Proverbs 8 to be an actual, literal woman who was created.
Ah, now you're catching on!
IF one were to argue that the church was a LITERAL bride, and SHE is preparing herself as a "chaste virgin" for the bridegroom, our Lord Jesus Christ, then one would also be arguing that only certain, unmarried women in the church represent the bride. To the extent that there are men in the church, they would also have had to "transition" at some point into women in order to be included in this feminine, bridal "class".
Correct? I believe that's close to the point you are expressing here.
If so, it's a valid point, one that I am glad you understand. Any such notion would be, to use a term you initially made, "ridiculous", which is why the traditional, orthodox church does not believe the bride of Christ is an actual woman.
In fact, we don't believe Jesus is the wisdom of Proverb's 8 for the exact same reason. Taking Proverbs 8 literally would make Jesus a created woman (that later transitions into a man) just as taking the bride of Christ as a literal female would mean any men of that church had later "transitioned" into chaste virgins. Not to mention that this same, literal rendering would cast all the married couples out on their ear. Either notion is ridiculous.
We recognize both as metaphors which allows scripture readers to apply a logical and consistent hermeneutic to both 2 Cor. 11:2-3 and Proverbs 8. So neither Lady Wisdom or the Bride of Christ are represented by an actual literal person. They are both literary devices.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Cults came up because I know of cults who use this and other mistranslations to support their positions.
If I emphasise the first Adam it is because it says that he "became" something, and it is assumed that this is what is meant also in 1Cor 15:45 when it speaks of the last Adam being a life giving spirit. So some translations say He became a life giving spirit whereas He was a life giving spirit before He became a human and remained so while a human with a physical body also.
Phil 2:6 tells us that Jesus was in essence God before He became a man and remained so while a man, so imo He was a life giving spirit before and during being a man on earth and afterwards also. He did not become that just when resurrected.
(See Ellicott's commentary on this site: Philippians 2:6 Commentaries: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, )
Jesus as a man had the essential nature of God and the essential nature of a servant. He is our servant King.
Jesus resurrection in a glorified body does not mean that He became a spirit. He already had a spirit as a man, and His new spiritual body was one that could be controlled by His spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He could appear in locked rooms, disappear from the presence of His disciples etc.
He raised His body back to life as He had said (John 2:19) and as the angel at the tomb said. (Matt 28:6) and His body was raised as His glorified spiritual body, just as all people in the Kingdom will have.
The resurrected Jesus is like He was before becoming a human except now He has a servant nature also and a glorified human body. He fills all thing, the whole universe etc. (Eph 4:10) and lives with His Father and through the Holy Spirit in those who love Him (John 14:23).
Sorry this post got a bit long and out of hand.
Brian2
Veteran Member
That's right, you deny those scriptures which tell us Jesus was with the Father and in the form of God before He became a man.
2 is not 3 and Jesus was talking about Himself and the Father and not about the Holy Spirit. That is easy to see and understand, I wonder why you don't seem to be able to do that.
And now you are disagreeing with the Greek grammar of the verse which seems to have nothing to do with the Son and the Father agreeing with each other.
Even Jesus opponents knew what He was saying and wanted to stone Him. They did not want to stone Him because He said that He and the Father were in agreement.
Brian2
Veteran Member
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.…
Yes the Son, a man, is granted to have life in Him and to judge the dead. Jesus the Son and heir waits for the Father to grant Him what the Son already owns as the heir. (John 16:15)
Yes, Jesus as a man, lived like one of us and relied on God His Father instead of turning to His own power as the divine Son of God.
Jesus was in the form of God before becoming a man and is now in the form of God and is everywhere including dwelling in those who love Him
Jesus and the Father come and dwell through the Holy Spirit in those who love Jesus and keep His commands.
The one Spirit, the Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of Christ in the New Testament.
23 Bible verses about Spirit Of Christ
A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic
God is everywhere, including on His place of rulership. (1Kings 8:27)
amazing grace
Active Member
1 Cor. 15:45 - there is a correlation between the first Adam and the last Adam - the first Adam, was given life by God - God breathed into him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul; the last Adam, given eternal life being raised from the dead by God became a life-giving spirit. Is this saying Jesus became a "spirit"? I don't believe so. Jesus still had flesh and bone but apparently it is different in that - yes, he could appear in another form (Mark 16:22) and yes, he appeared in the midst of the disciples who were in a room where the doors were shut (John 20:26).Cults came up because I know of cults who use this and other mistranslations to support their positions.
If I emphasise the first Adam it is because it says that he "became" something, and it is assumed that this is what is meant also in 1Cor 15:45 when it speaks of the last Adam being a life giving spirit. So some translations say He became a life giving spirit whereas He was a life giving spirit before He became a human and remained so while a human with a physical body also.
Phil 2:6 tells us that Jesus was in essence God before He became a man and remained so while a man, so imo He was a life giving spirit before and during being a man on earth and afterwards also. He did not become that just when resurrected.
(See Ellicott's commentary on this site: Philippians 2:6 Commentaries: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, )
Jesus as a man had the essential nature of God and the essential nature of a servant. He is our servant King.
Jesus resurrection in a glorified body does not mean that He became a spirit. He already had a spirit as a man, and His new spiritual body was one that could be controlled by His spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He could appear in locked rooms, disappear from the presence of His disciples etc.
He raised His body back to life as He had said (John 2:19) and as the angel at the tomb said. (Matt 28:6) and His body was raised as His glorified spiritual body, just as all people in the Kingdom will have.
The resurrected Jesus is like He was before becoming a human except now He has a servant nature also and a glorified human body. He fills all thing, the whole universe etc. (Eph 4:10) and lives with His Father and through the Holy Spirit in those who love Him (John 14:23).
Sorry this post got a bit long and out of hand.
So, by saying he became a life-giving spirit is not saying he became a spirit but that because of his resurrection from dead, he will give life; raise those who have believed in him from the dead to eternal life. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (i.e. life-giving spirit) [1 Cor. 15:20-22]
I don't agree that "became human"; he was born a human being.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe you have no evidence to support that view.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe this could be a reference to Jesus being in the Paraclete. I don't think it is saying that the physical turned into a spirit.
I believe the seed of Mary is human but God may have gotten creative with the male half. I do not believe you can say that God became human but I believe you can say God took on human form.
I got you ... You do think that Wisdom in Prov. 8 is literally a woman.
Yes, now I understand how you think.
I guess you do think that Wickedness in Zech. 5:5-8 is literally a woman also.
Maybe are you only applying certain criteria when it suits you and no when it doesn't?
As I said: this is not about winning a competition. Be honest to yourself.
Besides, when you said "we don't believe Jesus is the wisdom of Proverb's 8" I don't have any idea of who you are referring to. As I told you before, most theologians and comentators include notes on Prov. 8 identifying the Wisdom as Christ, so who is that "YOU" besides only yourself (in singular)?
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amazing grace
Active Member
I don't think it is saying that the physical turned into a spirit either but given a spiritual body nevertheless. Just as when we are raised from the dead, we also will receive a spiritual body.
I believe that Jesus is the "seed of the woman" from Genesis 3:15 and that he was miraculously created in the womb of Mary via the power of the Most High - the Holy Spirit, i.e. God. God did not take on human form or become a man; scripture clearly states God is not a man - Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
The only usefulness from your post is your last comment:Cults came up because I know of cults who use this and other mistranslations to support their positions.
If I emphasise the first Adam it is because it says that he "became" something, and it is assumed that this is what is meant also in 1Cor 15:45 when it speaks of the last Adam being a life giving spirit. So some translations say He became a life giving spirit whereas He was a life giving spirit before He became a human and remained so while a human with a physical body also.
Phil 2:6 tells us that Jesus was in essence God before He became a man and remained so while a man, so imo He was a life giving spirit before and during being a man on earth and afterwards also. He did not become that just when resurrected.
(See Ellicott's commentary on this site: Philippians 2:6 Commentaries: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, )
Jesus as a man had the essential nature of God and the essential nature of a servant. He is our servant King.
Jesus resurrection in a glorified body does not mean that He became a spirit. He already had a spirit as a man, and His new spiritual body was one that could be controlled by His spirit,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He could appear in locked rooms, disappear from the presence of His disciples etc.
He raised His body back to life as He had said (John 2:19) and as the angel at the tomb said. (Matt 28:6) and His body was raised as His glorified spiritual body, just as all people in the Kingdom will have.
The resurrected Jesus is like He was before becoming a human except now He has a servant nature also and a glorified human body. He fills all thing, the whole universe etc. (Eph 4:10) and lives with His Father and through the Holy Spirit in those who love Him (John 14:23).
Sorry this post got a bit long and out of hand.
Out of hand is right but in hand with all the rest of the twaddle that you knowingly claim as your belief.
This is what happens when you need to contestant invent new evasive ideologies for a fallacious belief.
Brian2, what does it do for you to be constantly in error and having to battle with the truth? You must be feeling hurt and upset that your ideological belief is actually bunkum and only desperation to keep believing in it keeps you going - OR - your realisation means now everything is just a joke.
Brian2, the fact you need to struggle trying to remember what you said before - to express a cohesive and coherent belief - means certainly that your belief is FALSE. If it were true then you would have one expression and the scriptures would uphold you in it. But as it is, nothing that you are saying bares any resemblance to a truth.
- “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, [to be] both Lord and Messiah.” (Acts 2:36)
- “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)
Brian2, can you guess what ‘CHRIST’ means…?
No!!
Well, it means ‘[The] ANOINTED ONE’…
And how is this corroborated?
- “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached - how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)
- “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.” (Isaiah 42:1)
- “a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:17)
- “The Spirit of the Sovereign YHWH is on me, because the YHWH has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,” (Isaiah 61:1)
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Not adressed to me, but I will say something about that question.
If you read these passages you will see "who God is, diferent to Jesus":
1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah (Is. 61:1,2; Hb. 4:27)
2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised (Dt. 18:15-18; Acts 3:22-26)
3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him (Psal. 110:1,2; Eph. 1:17-23)
4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek (Psal. 110:4; Hb. 5:6,10)
5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir (Psal. 2:8; Hb. 1:2)
6) Jehovah stated Jesus Christ is His Son (Psal. 2:7; Hb. 5:5)
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Brian2
Veteran Member
I believe that the pre human Son of God, who had and kept the nature of His Father, was sent to be born as a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
As a man Jesus is the Son of God, but has the Divine nature of His Father as well as having the nature of a servant, a man.
As the Son and heir who is exactly like His Father, Jesus inherits what belongs to the Father, and that includes the Father's name.
Num 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Hosea 11:9 I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I devastate Ephraim again.
For I am God, and not a man—
the Holy One among you.
Neither of these say that God cannot become a man.
As a man Jesus did not lie or change His mind because He was the perfect man, the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation. He is the firstfruits of the new creation, the last Adam whom we take after in our own imperfect way.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Are you one who has the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Christ who is the Truth?
Brian2
Veteran Member
So Jesus was a man, the Son of God who relied on God His Father and received His inheritance from His Father, all the things which belonged to Him as the Son (John 16:15) including the name above all names, the name of His Father.
Jesus was a man, who lived in heavens before, so he is called God's First-Born and the Scriptures say that "thorugh him" God created the rest of the Universe. That would not be true if Jesus had not been at God's side when the Universe was being created.
Hb. 1:2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
Hb. 1:2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Thanks Eli G, but the question should be addressed (posted to) BRIAN2.
One moment (for him) Jesus is God.
The next moment Jesus is a man with all human frailties.
And yet in a further moment (for him) Jesus is YHWH, the Father…
This is quite normal squibble for Trinitarians ideology. Their belief is so flexible and stretchable it makes ‘Stretch Armstrong’ seem like a steel bar!!