Jesus - First Born?

[InChrist]

In trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was born as the first of all creation.

Yet, in the same trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was never born because he is God, who is not a creation!

Are these two contradictory claims from one belief system?

You have incorrectly stated the position of those who believe in the triune Godhead.

The Son of God is eternal, Who became/ was born into flesh/human in the Person of Jesus Christ. He is the Firstborn, meaning Preeminent, OVER all creation; NOT part of or a first creation.
There is no contradiction.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:15-18

 

[Brian2]

Yep - Jesus was raised immortal and became a life giving, i.e. the last Adam became a life giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b ESV)

1Cor 15:45 does not say that Jesus became a life giving spirit.
The New American Standard Bible may have a good translation.
1Cor 15:45 So also it is written: “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING PERSON.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit.

The first Adam was a living soul after his creation as a man, Jesus the last Adam did not become a life-giving spirit but was always a life giving spirit.
Us humans first took after the first Adam and now can take after the last Adam, as a new creation.

 

[Brian2]

No, Brian2. Angels were created by God, for God’s purpose in managing the varied aspects of the created world and for ministering to humanity.

It is after Jesus has ventured into and completes the mission that God sent him, dies, is raised up to glory in Heaven, and brings a close to the age, does that God gives him the angels as his own (Matthew 13:41)

But it is through the Son that all things have been created.
Heb1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
If we look at Colossians it sheds more light on it.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Here we can see that Jesus existed before all things and all things came to exist by (through) Him.

But till then, the angels are the ownership of God, not Jesus:

• “Of the angels he says, “He [God] makes his [God] angels winds, and his [God] ministers a flame of fire.”” (Hebrew 1:7)
• ‘Do you not know that I could call on my Father and he would send me a legion of angels …’ (Matt 26:53)

Jesus was not an angel, a servant, by nature, but became a servant when He became a man (Philipians 2).
Jesus is certainly more than the angels.
Heb 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

Jesus said while on earth that He owned everything that the Father has. (John 16:15) As the heir this is true, He inherits it all including the name of God.
He became lower than the angels for a time but then inherited everything from His Father.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Phil 2: 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In Luke 4: 9-12, the Devil dares Jesus to jump off the high place to TEST THAT GOD would send HIS (God’s) angels to save Jesus. Jesus retorts that it is not good to test that God would send His angels. It’s not Jesus calling his angels!

• “For it is written: “’He [God] will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully;” (Luke 4:10)

It is not said that Jesus would call angels to his aid - but rather, that his Father (God) who owns them, would send them to aid Jesus if Jesus called upon his spiritual Father.

I’m sure you know that and have read that!

Yes I know that and have read it and tell you what you also should have read and know.
That Jesus became lower than the angels for a time. (Hebrews 2:7-9, Psalm 8:5)
Jesus humbled Himself when He became a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
So it is as a man that Jesus was lower than the angels.

 

[Soapy]

FINALLY!

We have something we can agree on Soapy. The earth didn't shake, the heavens didn't roll.

In fact, agreeing on this very important fact wasn't all that hard, was it?




Soapy did not post "Trinitarian claims". Soapy posted what Soapy thought were Trinitarian claims. Unfortunately, Soapy appears unable to distinguish what he thinks are "Trinitarian claims" from actual claims made by Trinitarian doctrine. This is why Oeste has asked Soapy, on numerous occasions, to post the source of his so-called "Trinitarian claims".




Oeste knows "what the Trinity doctrine claims" and "what Soapy claims it claims" don't actually jibe.

Oeste also knows that Soapy does not speak for Trinitarians. Rather the doctrine speaks for itself. So when Soapy says "Trinitarians believe..." it should be taken with a massive dose of salt, because Soapy has shown he does not check his sources to see if what he claims Trinitarians believe is something Trinitarians actually do believe.




Well there you go Soapy!

You've made your Christology clear. You are an ADOPTIONIST.

Why didn't you just say so?

Adoptionism is a minority Christian belief that Jesus was born merely human and that he became divine—adopted as God's son—later in his life. By these accounts, Jesus earned the title Christ through his sinless devotion to the will of God, rather than be his pre-existent status as the eternally begotten Son of God. Adoptionists typically portray either Jesus' baptism or his resurrection, or both, as the key moment(s) in the process of his divinization. Source​

Adoptionism is considered a heresy, argued and condemned at the the Council of Nicaea in 325. Today there are many variants of Adoptionism, but the core tenants of the original heresy remain: Jesus was human and nothing more, had nothing to do with mankind's creation, and was "noticed" and "adopted" as God's "firstborn" because he was leading a sinless life.

In any event, it appears we will be waiting forever for you to source your so-called claims on what Trinitarians actually believe. As such, I don't see where readers have much choice then to conclude your statements about Trinitarians were manufactured out of thin air.

The claims I made are from my experience of debating with Trinitarians. What I posted to you was evidence of how that deception by Trinitarians work - Deny everything when the trinity fallacy is exposed!

And that’s exactly what you did… perfect!

 

[Soapy]

Col 1: 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

That quote does mean that Jesus existed before everything else and everything else was created in or through Him and for Him.
What do you think it means when it says everything was created in/through Him?
What do you think it means when it says everything was created for Him? (including the invisible things in heaven)

The quoted verse do not read properly - and you know it. You are forcing yourself to compensate for the illegal structure.

Jesus did not create the world IN HIM and THROUGH HIM. That’s a nonsense—- What does it mean, really?

Trinity claims that GOD, THE FATHER, created all things THROUGH the Son —- How is that done when the Son can only do what he first sees the Father doing:

• “Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.” (John 5:19)

Also, the verse says:

• ‘IT WAS CREATED FOR HIM’.

Something created ‘for’ someone is created BY SOMEONE ELSE.

The truth is that Jesus is a human Being. God is spirit and rules in a spirit realm. God created a physical world and assigned rulership to the son of his love from among humanity. God created the world FOR HIM - the Son of his love; the most beloved of His Image; the only sinless man who lived and remained sinless despite the ultimate trial - Death of a sinless man. Remember that Satan tempted Jesus to gain the rulership WITHOUT going through pain, anxiety, humiliation, suffering, and Death…:

• ‘Father, if there could be another way…’!
• ‘Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me;’!

“For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.” If God created everything, how is your belief that it was Jesus who created all things?

Which verse from the Torah claims Jesus as the creator of all things?

How was Jesus eternal yet nothing at all (except by prophesy) was ever referred to him?

 

[Soapy]

You have incorrectly stated the position of those who believe in the triune Godhead.

The Son of God is eternal, Who became/ was born into flesh/human in the Person of Jesus Christ. He is the Firstborn, meaning Preeminent, OVER all creation; NOT part of or a first creation.
There is no contradiction.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:15-18

Sorry, but that’s what you have been told to believe.

Jesus, himself, warned us that there would be those who would add or remove from the scriptures. Do you not believe that to be true?

Where does scriptures say that Jesus is eternal?
What were Jesus’ own words?:

• ‘I am he that WAS DEAD, but AM NOW ALIVE forevermore’

How can one be ETERNAL if one was DEAD at some point?

Is this not true:

• “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”

 

[amazing grace]

1Cor 15:45 does not say that Jesus became a life giving spirit.
The New American Standard Bible may have a good translation.
1Cor 15:45 So also it is written: “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING PERSON.” The last Adam was a life-giving spirit.

The first Adam was a living soul after his creation as a man, Jesus the last Adam did not become a life-giving spirit but was always a life giving spirit.
Us humans first took after the first Adam and now can take after the last Adam, as a new creation.

NASB translates the Greek word ginomaI as "was" and the ESV translates ginomai as "became" - both of which carry the past tense of "to be" ---- definition #5:

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made

 

[Brian2]

NASB translates the Greek word ginomaI as "was" and the ESV translates ginomai as "became" - both of which carry the past tense of "to be" ---- definition #5:

1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
   1. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
   1. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
   1. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made

I hear that translators do presume that the last Adam became something because the passage tells us that the first Adam became something. And sometimes translators don't seem to realise what small mistakes in translations can mean when cults get hold of them and say it proves something or other. But really the cults should know what they say is wrong because they have the means to check the original language.
But from Benson Commentary on this site: 1 Corinthians 15:45 Commentaries: So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46. And so it is written — With respect to the animal body, Genesis 2:7. The first Adam was made a living soul — God gave him animal life, in many respects resembling that of other animals; the last Adam was made — Rather was, or is, for there is nothing in the original for made; a quickening Spirit

 

[Brian2]

The quoted verse do not read properly - and you know it. You are forcing yourself to compensate for the illegal structure.

Jesus did not create the world IN HIM and THROUGH HIM. That’s a nonsense—- What does it mean, really?

Trinity claims that GOD, THE FATHER, created all things THROUGH the Son —- How is that done when the Son can only do what he first sees the Father doing:

• “Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.” (John 5:19)

"Illegal structure"? It's just what the Bible says. How do you think the translation should read?
Jesus sees the Father creating through His Word by saying, "Let there be light" or whatever else the Father says, and the Son, the Word, creates also, creates what the Father is creating through Him (the Word). It's not hard to understand.

Also, the verse says:

• ‘IT WAS CREATED FOR HIM’.

Something created ‘for’ someone is created BY SOMEONE ELSE.

Yes the Father created everything through and for the Son. But I'm sure the NT also says that everything is FOR the Father. So much for someone else doing the creating.
Heb 2:10 For it twas fitting that he, ufor whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons vto glory, should make the wfounder of their salvation xperfect through suffering.

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

But you have drawn attention away from ‘IT WAS CREATED FOR HIM’
Whoever did the creating does not change the fact that it was created for the Son

The truth is that Jesus is a human Being. God is spirit and rules in a spirit realm. God created a physical world and assigned rulership to the son of his love from among humanity. God created the world FOR HIM - the Son of his love; the most beloved of His Image; the only sinless man who lived and remained sinless despite the ultimate trial - Death of a sinless man. Remember that Satan tempted Jesus to gain the rulership WITHOUT going through pain, anxiety, humiliation, suffering, and Death…:

• ‘Father, if there could be another way…’!
• ‘Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me;’!

“For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.” If God created everything, how is your belief that it was Jesus who created all things?

The Son did what He say the Father doing, as I have explained. So they both did it, and since it was only YHWH who did it, they bother are YHWH, the ONE God.

Which verse from the Torah claims Jesus as the creator of all things?

How was Jesus eternal yet nothing at all (except by prophesy) was ever referred to him?

The Torah claims YHWH created it all.
The Bible goes on to show that Jesus (in His prehuman form) was there and it was all created through Him.
The Bible in many places actually shows us that Jesus is YHWH and that the Son is Divine and God.

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Mal 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 8:13 The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread.
14 He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah he will be
a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.

 

[Oeste]

Let me explain it to you in a diferent way: in Italian and also in Spanish most objects have gender (a grammatical gender), and that is something that does not happen in English ... Think in a flower, for example. A flower is an object that has not gender in English, so it is Neuter; BUT in Spanish the word for flower which is FLOR has a feminine gender and if you want to add an article or adjective to the noun FLOR in Spanish, it must be feminine also, to agree with the gender of the noun ... YET in Italian, the flower is Masculine ( IL FIORE) , so you cann't use neuter or feminine articles or adjectives with it, but Masculine ones.

Look:

English: the flower (Neuter)
Spanish: la flor (Feminine)
Italian: il fiore (Masculine)

That was very good, however the problem is not one of matching articles or adjectives to nouns. If we have a feminine noun, then the article will also be feminine. The same is true for masculine nouns, and if neutral, generally a "he" or "it" will do.

The problem comes later when you attempt to change the author's clear intent.

Let's go farther: if I impersonated a flower in Italian, most likely I would impersonate it as a boy or a man, dressed like a man and with a masculine voice, because the Italian public would have no problem assimilating the mental image of the object FLOWER as a male... but if I do it in Spanish, I cann't represent the flower as a male, because for the Spanish-speaker the flower is a feminine object, so it would have to be represented as a delicate girl, with a skirt and a feminine voice. You understand? The same object with a diferent gender representation due to the image that the features of the specific language project in the minds of its speakers.

Of course you can do this in Spanish! I will show you how in a moment...no skirt needed!

The person impersonating the flower can be a boy or a girl. There is nothing in Spanish that says flowers must be impersonated by a girl wearing a skirt. Men and boys can impersonate flowers just as easily as their opposite sex counterparts, and they can do this whether they are in Spain, Italy, or even a country with gender neutral nouns like the U.S.

The word "flor" or flower is, as you said, a feminine noun, but this stems from it's Latin roots (as do most nouns with Spanish). This does not mean "flor" cannot be masculine. To make flor masculine is very simple:

During the flowering period, these male flowers are easily observed due to their yellow color and banana shape.​

​

En plena floración éstas flores machos son visibles fácilmente, gracias a su color amarillo vivo y a su forma de pequeñas bananas.​

So there you have it…male flowers, in Spanish, even though the noun "flor" is a feminine object.

1 Cor. 1:24 (...) Christ is (...) the wisdom of God.

No one here is arguing whether Christ is the wisdom of God.

However, Christ is identified as male. I don't think anyone argues with that either.

The problem arises when we claim Christ was created as a female, and then point to Proverbs 8 for support. The wisdom of Proverbs 8 is identified as female which means she is entirely different from the wisdom we find in 1 Cor 1:24.

You have indicated that the sex of Wisdom can change based on language. Thus, a person representing a feminine object in one language , like Hebrew, becomes a male person if the same object is masculine in another language, like Greek. This is not true in any general translation practice, and is certainly not true when translating scripture. Where the gender is known, it is kept the same, as the most paramount this we can do when translating is to keep the original author's intent. This becomes especially important when translating scripture, as the original author is considered to be Divinely inspired. Deborah does not become a man simply because the audience lives in a culture that traditionally recognizes warriors and rulers as men.

As a further point, the Greek word "sophia" (wisdom) is feminine in Greek just as it is in Hebrew, yet we know God's wisdom is identified as male, so the argument made, that we could justify a gender change due to cultural, grammatical, audience expectations or other constraints simply doesn't apply.

Lastly, for anyone still having difficulty with this subject, they can simply open up their Septuagint, where the translation of Proverbs 8 into Greek was done by Hebrew translators... translators who did not dare break fidelity from the original author's intent.

As such, the Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is NOT the Wisdom of God. It may help to know that the word "Wisdom" was used broadly in ancient cultures. There is the Wisdom of God, the wisdom of man, the Wisdom who served the king, even a wisdom who might serve a klan or family. Earthly Wisdoms generally had a broad or wide knowledge, ranging from interpreting dreams, signs in the earth or heavens, science and healing, military and government affairs, childbirth or simply godly upbringing.

With so many things to know, and with pestilence, floods, famines and drought that could wipe out whole swaths of a population, they were rarely the same person, so there is no reason to confuse these vastly different and mixed-gendered Wisdoms .

Conclusion

Since the Wisdoms mentioned in Proverbs 8 and Cor 1:24, are clearly and obviously different (unless Jesus transitioned into a man sometime after his creation), their no scriptural warrant to conclude he was either created or a woman based on Proverbs 8.

 

[amazing grace]

I hear that translators do presume that the last Adam became something because the passage tells us that the first Adam became something. And sometimes translators don't seem to realise what small mistakes in translations can mean when cults get hold of them and say it proves something or other. But really the cults should know what they say is wrong because they have the means to check the original language.
But from Benson Commentary on this site: 1 Corinthians 15:45 Commentaries: So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46. And so it is written — With respect to the animal body, Genesis 2:7. The first Adam was made a living soul — God gave him animal life, in many respects resembling that of other animals; the last Adam was made — Rather was, or is, for there is nothing in the original for made; a quickening Spirit

Not sure why the subject of cults was introduced and I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing the "first Adam" becoming a living soul - that has never been the point. Of course, Adam was the first of mankind. Jesus was also a man, who after his death and resurrection became a life-giving (life-quickening) spirit - who will raise to life those who believe in him in the resurrections. 1 Corinthians 15 concerns the resurrection to immortality and receiving a glorified body as Jesus did.

 

[Soapy]

You have incorrectly stated the position of those who believe in the triune Godhead.

The Son of God is eternal, Who became/ was born into flesh/human in the Person of Jesus Christ. He is the Firstborn, meaning Preeminent, OVER all creation; NOT part of or a first creation.
There is no contradiction.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:15-18

Why is the SON OF GOD… different from GOD if he IS GOD?

Do you believe in the Athanasian Creed?

Is belief in the Apostles creeds necessary for trinity ideology?

What does it mean that Jesus was BEGOTTEN BY GOD BEFORE THE AGES?

‘Begotten, not Created’? What does that even mean?

Why was THE SON begotten of God if he IS GOD?

Is the Father of God also begotten by God?

Oh, there isn’t a ‘Father of God’!!!!

But why not - if God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ then:

1. The Father is OF GOD
2. The Son is OF GOD
3. The Holy Spirit is OF GOD
4. ‘Son of God; Spirit of God; Father of God’

Do you agree? If not, why not?

 

[Soapy]

"Illegal structure"? It's just what the Bible says. How do you think the translation should read?
Jesus sees the Father creating through His Word by saying, "Let there be light" or whatever else the Father says, and the Son, the Word, creates also, creates what the Father is creating through Him (the Word). It's not hard to understand.

Oh Brian2, you are such a laugh…!!!

Are you saying there was TWO CREATIONS?
And the one we see now is the one Jesus created?

What happened to the first creation?

Even ‘CREATED THROUGH’ the Son…. still states a claim that it was the Father (God) who created. The Son would only therefore be the INSTRUMENT of creation: God used the son in the creation.

But the whole thing is false so that’s why there is so much controversy over the claim that the Son created anything.

Yes the Father created everything through and for the Son. But I'm sure the NT also says that everything is FOR the Father. So much for someone else doing the creating.
Heb 2:10 For it twas fitting that he, ufor whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons vto glory, should make the wfounder of their salvation xperfect through suffering.

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

But you have drawn attention away from ‘IT WAS CREATED FOR HIM’
Whoever did the creating does not change the fact that it was created for the Son

No, Brian2, you are still thrashing.

God did not create the world FOR HIMSELF, per de! There was no one else so the creation was ‘for his PURPOSE and PLEASURE’ but that pleasure was to see it being ruled over by a man made in his image - A physical world ruled over by a physical being just as He, God, a Spirit, rules over a Spirit kingdom.

The Son did what He say the Father doing, as I have explained. So they both did it, and since it was only YHWH who did it, they bother are YHWH, the ONE God.

Oh Stop… Brian2, just STOP!!!

No you have not explained anything. But now you have gone further to say ‘They BOTH CREATED’… by himself … alone… TWO OF THEM!!

Oh Brian2, who is your master? Who is teaching you this deception?

The Torah claims YHWH created it all.
The Bible goes on to show that Jesus (in His prehuman form) was there and it was all created through Him.
The Bible in many places actually shows us that Jesus is YHWH and that the Son is Divine and God.

No, Brian2… Jesus is not YHWH.

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

‘O God’ just means: ‘O Mighty One’.

The ‘Throne’ refers to that of King David, which YHWH states and prophesies will be an ETERNAL THRONE, a descendent of David will always occupy it and Jesus Christ is the ultimate ruler who will be seated on that throne.

Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Mal 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

The LORD ALMIGHTY says the Lord they are seeking will come to his temple - the MESSENGER of the Covenant.

Brian2… That is THE MESSIAH!! No one was WAITING FOR GOD … They were WAITING FOR THE MESSIAH: The SERVANT OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY: ‘Behold my Servant; the one whom I have chosen; I will put my spirit on him and he will fulfil my desire’ (paraphrased).

Isa 8:13 The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread.
14 He will be a holy place;
for both Israel and Judah he will be
a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.

Brian2, oh dear, dear, Brian2… You are suggesting that Jesus is ‘The Lord Almighty’? Since when was anyone of humanity told to FEAR JESUS???

No, Brian2, it is YHWH; God; whom we must fear , He is the one to be in dread of. Jesus came to show LOVE … he came as a meek lamb of God:

• “He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;” (Isaiah 42:2-3)

It is the DEMON ANGELS who must fear Jesus Christ.

 

[Soapy]

But it is through the Son that all things have been created.
Heb1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
If we look at Colossians it sheds more light on it.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Here we can see that Jesus existed before all things and all things came to exist by (through) Him.



Jesus was not an angel, a servant, by nature, but became a servant when He became a man (Philipians 2).
Jesus is certainly more than the angels.
Heb 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

Jesus said while on earth that He owned everything that the Father has. (John 16:15) As the heir this is true, He inherits it all including the name of God.
He became lower than the angels for a time but then inherited everything from His Father.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Phil 2: 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



Yes I know that and have read it and tell you what you also should have read and know.
That Jesus became lower than the angels for a time. (Hebrews 2:7-9, Psalm 8:5)
Jesus humbled Himself when He became a man.
Phil 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
So it is as a man that Jesus was lower than the angels.

How can Jesus be lower than the angels when he (by trinity) is almighty God?

This would mean there are two people who are Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

You have incorrectly stated the position of those who believe in the triune Godhead.

Do you believe this (From Wickipedia):

• “The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold')[1] is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons:[2][3] God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature (homoousion)[4] As the Fourth Lateran Councildeclared, it is the Father who begets, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.”

Do you believe that it is the Father who BEGETS (Afterall, the definition of ‘Father’ is:

• ‘He who CREATES’
• ‘He who brings into being’
• ‘He that gives life’

Do you believe that the Son is BEGOTTEN?
And what does ‘Begotten’ mean?
And more specifically, ‘Begotten of/from the Father’ - (Father who is the begetter!)

Seems like Trinitarians aren’t very big on definitions since definitions expose the fallacy of trinity.

 

[Soapy]

1Cor 15:45 does not say that Jesus became a life giving spirit.

God GRANTED Jesus to be so.

Everything Jesus Christ had that was of power was GRANTED to him FROM GOD by means of Jesus having the Spirit of God in him.

It is the Spirit of God (that which is called, ‘Holy Spirit’) that enables a human being to perform the great acts. Thus is borne out by the coming of the spirit of God onto the apostles at Pentecost.

Before that, the disciples (as they were then) relied on Jesus Christ. But Jesus says he had to go away - and when he goes away he would send THE GIFT FROM THE FATHER: The spirit of God that would REMAIN with them.

 

[Eli G]

(...) Since the Wisdoms mentioned in Proverbs 8 and Cor 1:24, are clearly and obviously different (unless Jesus transitioned into a man sometime after his creation), their no scriptural warrant to conclude he was either created or a woman based on Proverbs 8.

Hehehe. You think this is about winning a competition, LOL. You don't understand, but it's Ok, you don't have to; I guess others will.

Anyway, I'll try another way: is Jesus's bride a woman?

Or, using your words on post #52: when Jesus'brothers made this supposed transition to "a chaste virgen"?

2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ. 3 But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ.

 

[InChrist]

Why is the SON OF GOD… different from GOD if he IS GOD?

Do you believe in the Athanasian Creed?

Is belief in the Apostles creeds necessary for trinity ideology?

What does it mean that Jesus was BEGOTTEN BY GOD BEFORE THE AGES?

‘Begotten, not Created’? What does that even mean?

Why was THE SON begotten of God if he IS GOD?

Is the Father of God also begotten by God?

Oh, there isn’t a ‘Father of God’!!!!

But why not - if God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ then:

1. The Father is OF GOD
2. The Son is OF GOD
3. The Holy Spirit is OF GOD
4. ‘Son of God; Spirit of God; Father of God’

Do you agree? If not, why not?

Only the Bible is necessary to understand that God has revealed Himself as One God- three Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Apostles Creed, nor any other human formed creeds are needed.

The Bible reveals a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence.


The Son of God is the only “begotten” meaning He is one of a kind, the unique and only Son of God. The word does not mean born, created or that He has a beginning…


“False teachers have latched onto this phrase to try to prove their false teaching that Jesus Christ isn’t God; i.e., that Jesus isn’t equal in essence to God as the Second Person of the Trinity. They see the word "begotten" and say that Jesus is a created being because only someone who had a beginning in time can be "begotten." What this fails to note is that "begotten" is an English translation of a Greek word. As such, we have to look at the original meaning of the Greek word, not transfer English meanings into the text.

So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature(BDAG, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham’s "only begotten son" (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.

The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God’s Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God’s sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.”

What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? What does the word begotten mean in the original Greek of the New Testament?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Soapy]

Only the Bible is necessary to understand that God has revealed Himself as One God- three Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Apostles Creed, nor any other human formed creeds are needed.

Good dodge…. Trinitarian Christianity is founded on the trinitarian creeds. You cannot say it is nothing to do with the Bible since the belief in trinity is dictated by the creed and the threat that you are condemned if you do not believe it:

• “Athanasian Creed, also called Quicumque Vult (from the opening words in Latin), a Christian profession of faith in about 40 verses. It is regarded as authoritative in the Roman Catholic and some Protestant churches. It has two sections, one dealing with the Trinity and the other with the Incarnation;and it begins and ends with stern warnings that unswerving adherence to such truths is indispensable to salvation. The virulence of these damnatory clauses has led some critics, especially in the Anglican churches, to secure restriction or abandonment of the use of the creed.” (Britannica)

The Bible reveals a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence.

Something that is ‘Complete’ in itself is not THREE THINGS. God was:

• ‘ALONE… BY HIMSELF’…

not:

• ‘Alone separate and distinct BY THEMSELVES’.

The Son of God is the only “begotten” meaning He is one of a kind, the unique and only Son of God. The word does not mean born, created or that He has a beginning…

‘Begotten’ does not mean ‘One of a kind’.
It means ‘Born [from]’ which complies with a ‘Begetter’ - ‘He from whom the Begotten comes’: hence ‘Born from’.

It is for this reason that the trinity creed had to add that though the son of God (Begotten from God’) he is nevertheless ‘NOT CREATED’. And, of course, that is a nonsense stated nowhere in any scripture and especially not at all in the Torah. It is, actually, a completely contorted irreverent invention unsupported except by the manmade creed and demanded with menaces as a belief.

“False teachers have latched onto this phrase to try to prove their false teaching that Jesus Christ isn’t God; i.e., that Jesus isn’t equal in essence to God as the Second Person of the Trinity. They see the word "begotten" and say that Jesus is a created being because only someone who had a beginning in time can be "begotten." What this fails to note is that "begotten" is an English translation of a Greek word. As such, we have to look at the original meaning of the Greek word, not transfer English meanings into the text.

You really do not see the great elephant in the room of your claim, do you… I know that by showing you the error it gives you a chance to make adjustments to your false claims the next time you are confronted… that’s how trinity survives….

Ok, I’m going to show you: You sad that it is false teachers who claim that Jesus isn’t equal to God.

I’ll give you a few moments to think about that… (‘Jesus equal to God’?)….. ……. ……

Did you see it?

Ok, what is ‘GOD’? Do you not present ‘God’ as ‘THREE PERSONS: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’. And then you declare Jesus as EQUAL to ‘GOD: Father, son, and Holy Spirit’…. But Jesus is the ‘Son’ in ‘God’. Isn’t that recursive?

But nowhere ever does trinity declare ‘The Father’ as being ‘EQUAL TO GOD’, and also nowhere does trinity declare the Holy Spirit as being ‘EQUAL TO GOD’.

But enough of exposing that little bit of trinity nonsense. I have asked these questions many times but got no answers:

1. Is the Father equal to the Son?
2. Is the Son equal to the Holy Spirit
3. Is the Holy Spirit equal to the Father?

But yet The Father is the highest RANKED in the trinity… how can there be a RANKED ORDER in an EQUAL three?

Moreover, if each is CO-EQUAL and CO-POWERFUL and CO-KNOWLEDGEABLE…. Why is there a need for THREE CO-EQUALS?

So what does monogenes mean? According to the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature(BDAG, 3rd Edition), monogenes has two primary definitions. The first definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship." This is its meaning in Hebrews 11:17 when the writer refers to Isaac as Abraham’s "only begotten son" (KJV). Abraham had more than one son, but Isaac was the only son he had by Sarah and the only son of the covenant. Therefore, it is the uniqueness of Isaac among the other sons that allows for the use of monogenes in that context.

Are you saying that Isaac was an eternal son of Abraham - BORN from eternity - Not created?

I think you are thrashing about this. You don’t really know what to say to defend your belief BECAUSE it isn’t a defensible belief - it can only be squibbled over - each trinitarian creating his own claim in the belief of blindly representing what you don’t really understand of what really isn’t understandable… hence trinity declares its ideology as ‘INCOMPREHENSIBLE’.. Yeah, it’s a trinity truth: Trinity IS incomprehensible.
The defence is that any one who cannot understand the incomprehensible trinity must be too thick to understand it!

The second definition is "pertaining to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind." This is the meaning that is implied in John 3:16 (see also John 1:14, 18; 3:18; 1 John 4:9). John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God’s Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God’s sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.”

What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that Jesus is God’s only begotten son? What does the word begotten mean in the original Greek of the New Testament?

www.gotquestions.org

Yes, you’ve hit on the great controversy about the book of John. It has been pointed out that the book of John is vastly different in presentation of Jesus Christ that anything else presented by any other book in the Bible.
That makes it suspicious as an authentic, genuine, true, book that was made Canon.

I must say that I was greatly fascinated by the book of John and read it in several ways - and quickly realised that it contained many strange idealised and indoctrinational verses. But nonetheless I can read through those controversies. In fact, far from claiming Jesus is God, John actually DENIES Jesus as being God, contrary to its aim as seen by trinity believers and the trinitarian translators who thought they were giving trinity a foot up!
————————————-

Oh, please, please, please, do not present any claim of trinity from ‘gotQuestion’ (nor ‘CARM). That (those) website(s) only serves to PROVE that trinity is a fallacy therefore if you need to defend trinity using such fallacious ideological claims then you have already lost your argument!!! It’s as well that you presented the extract as the last in your post!!!

 

[Brian2]

Oh Brian2, you are such a laugh…!!!

Are you saying there was TWO CREATIONS?
And the one we see now is the one Jesus created?

What happened to the first creation?

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.
If your understanding of this passage is correct then there were 2 creations and the Father must have come and died for our sins before the Son did it.
But as you can see, your understanding must be wrong.
Try to understand it again and if you still don't understand it, ask me and I will tell you what I think it means.

Even ‘CREATED THROUGH’ the Son…. still states a claim that it was the Father (God) who created. The Son would only therefore be the INSTRUMENT of creation: God used the son in the creation.

But the whole thing is false so that’s why there is so much controversy over the claim that the Son created anything.

There is no controversy, there is the truth and there are those who deny the truth. That is not controversy, that is pretend controversy by those who deny the truth.
They say, "Oh look, we disagree with you so there is a controversy".
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Hebrews 2:10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Oh look, everything came into existence through God. Do you think that means that God is just an agent, an instrument of creation?
If not then stop saying that the Son is because everything came into existence through Him.

God did not create the world FOR HIMSELF, per de! There was no one else so the creation was ‘for his PURPOSE and PLEASURE’ but that pleasure was to see it being ruled over by a man made in his image - A physical world ruled over by a physical being just as He, God, a Spirit, rules over a Spirit kingdom.

Everything was create for Christ.
Everything was created for God.
That is what the Bible tells us.

Oh Stop… Brian2, just STOP!!!

No you have not explained anything. But now you have gone further to say ‘They BOTH CREATED’… by himself … alone… TWO OF THEM!!

Oh Brian2, who is your master? Who is teaching you this deception?

Have you not heard what Jesus said? "I and the Father are one".
"One" is in the neuter tense, so it means "I and the Father are one thing".
You don't think they are one God, so what thing do you think they are?

No, Brian2… Jesus is not YHWH.

Speaking about Jesus the author of Hebrews says:
Heb 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

OK so we go to where this passage is in the OT and find that it is about God/YHWH. ( Psalm 102)
So the author of Hebrews is claiming that Jesus is God/YHWH.

The LORD ALMIGHTY says the Lord they are seeking will come to his temple - the MESSENGER of the Covenant.

Brian2… That is THE MESSIAH!! No one was WAITING FOR GOD … They were WAITING FOR THE MESSIAH: The SERVANT OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY: ‘Behold my Servant; the one whom I have chosen; I will put my spirit on him and he will fulfil my desire’ (paraphrased).

Mal 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

God says, "I will send my messenger before me" So God sends John the Baptist before He comes.

Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,”
Then the Lord (Jesus the Messiah) will come to His temple. The Temple of God in Jerusalem is the Jesus's Temple.

Brian2, oh dear, dear, Brian2… You are suggesting that Jesus is ‘The Lord Almighty’? Since when was anyone of humanity told to FEAR JESUS???

No, Brian2, it is YHWH; God; whom we must fear , He is the one to be in dread of. Jesus came to show LOVE … he came as a meek lamb of God:

• “He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;” (Isaiah 42:2-3)

It is the DEMON ANGELS who must fear Jesus Christ.

Psalm 2:8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron[b];
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Jesus is the one who will judge us so some fear is applicable.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Matt 21:44 He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”