Jesus - First Born?

[Soapy]

John 1:15 John testified concerning Him. He cried out, saying, “This is He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’”

Interesting idea but I would say that it is more than just a repetition of the same idea and in fact is not repeating the same idea but is a statement with a "because" in it, and that shows it is not a repetition of "He who comes after me has surpassed me......"



Believers are one body of Christ. We are one with each other. We are joined spiritually with Christ.
1Cor 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
We are children of God through Jesus being the real Son and us being adopted children.
We are not one with God, we are not joined with Him as we are with Christ, we can only be one with the humanity of Jesus and attain to the fulness of Christ. The oneness of the Son and Father is between them and they are joined as one with the one Spirit.



Eph 3:18 will have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth 19 of the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
To know this love of Christ helps us to know Christ and be filled with that love, which is the fullness of God.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by nphilosophy and oempty deceit, according to phuman tradition, according to the qelemental spirits1 of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For rin him the whole fullness of deity dwells sbodily, 10 and tyou have been filled in him, who is uthe head of all rule and authority.
Nothing else by Christ in us is needed by us.
Having this fullness of God in us is not the same as having the whole fullness of deity dwelling in us imo.



I don't think you can say that the prophets did not see the coming Messiah as divine.
In the passage you quote about a prophet like Moses, he was speaking of not just Jesus but all true prophets. With Jesus, the Son of God, Jesus was told what to say by His Father. That is not the Father telling Himself what to say. That is a common misunderstanding and misrepresenting of the Trinity and who Jesus was as a man.
The comparison between the first Adam and Jesus is that they were both human and lived as humans and had an impact on humanity by the way they lived.
Jesus was the sinless man, the spotless sacrifice, He had to live as a man and be a man fully.
The Apostolic Fathers were the first ones after the apostles and who had contact and teaching from apostles. They knew what the apostles taught and that is was that Jesus was God.

Jesus was God

Are you saying that Jesus was almighty God; the God of the Israelites; the God who said, ‘I created all things by myself’ and ‘besides me there is no other God’?

Are you saying that the Son of God is God?

Are you saying that the Son of man is God in Heaven today? Seated next to God? Equal to God?

Are you saying that God-God who is permanently seated on His great throne (The ancient of days) is Jesus-God (one like the son of man) who will be brought before and seated on the throne of David as ruler over the created world?

Lastly, if Jesus is God and is rewarded with a lesser throne than God… what was the point and purpose of his great deeds in resisting sin, bringing the word of God to mankind, being disbelieved, humiliated, spat on, tortured, and finally killed? What point was all this as a sacrifice only to gain something less than (as God, you say) he already had?

 

[amazing grace]

We trinitarians certainly believe Jesus to be a real man and do not presume to say that to live the perfect life, and be obedient to His Father's will was an easy thing for Him.
Jesus did live life as a man of flesh and blood and not as a spirit who is not tempted by carnal things. It is because of Him being the eternal Son with the character of His Father which enabled Him to do that imo.

I know that Trinitarians say they believe Jesus to be a "real" man BUT a "real" man is not God nor a God-man.
I don't believe that Jesus was a spirit either.
See - you say you believe Jesus to be a "real" man but then you say "the eternal Son"?
Yes, I agree that God enabled Jesus to attain perfection.

 

[Soapy]

Well I think the pagan idea is that when that happens the offspring is half a god and half man. In the Bible the off spring is a man who is the image of the invisible God and has the glory of His Father and the nature/essence of His Father (Heb 1:2-4) and can do and who does everything that His Father does. (John 5)
In the Bible this offspring is the Son of God who was all these things before becoming a man and did not change when He became a man, and also was exactly like His Father in character and humbled Himself and submitted to all the things He needed to do to be the Messiah and save us humans.
So not only do you miss those things that I mentioned but also you cannot see that the offspring of God has the nature of His Father, something that is obvious to the pagans.



Yes the Son has the Spirit of God without limit.
In Isaiah 42 YHWH says that He gives His glory to no other.
Since He has given His glory to Jesus, that shows Jesus is YHWH. (Heb 1:3).
In Isaiah God rhetorically asks who is like Him that they should be compared. In the New Testament we see Jesus compared to His Father YHWH and it said that He is exactly like Him and has the same glory and nature and can and does do all that YHWH does.
That makes the Son YHWH also.



Acts 2:36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

No it does not say that God made (or created) Jesus to be both Lord and Christ. You misquote the Bible here.
What it means in context is that God has declared Jesus to be both Lord and Christ by raising Him up from the dead.

Jesus was both Lord and Christ at His birth.
Luke 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

What does the word ‘Christ’ mean?

Jesus is the ruler of the creation of God according to Rev 3:14.

Does Jesus sit on the throne of God?

Or does Jesus eventually sit on the throne of David?

 

[Colt]

Are you saying that Jesus was almighty God; the God of the Israelites; the God who said, ‘I created all things by myself’ and ‘besides me there is no other God’?

Are you saying that the Son of God is God?

Are you saying that the Son of man is God in Heaven today? Seated next to God? Equal to God?

Are you saying that God-God who is permanently seated on His great throne (The ancient of days) is Jesus-God (one like the son of man) who will be brought before and seated on the throne of David as ruler over the created world?

Lastly, if Jesus is God and is rewarded with a lesser throne than God… what was the point and purpose of his great deeds in resisting sin, bringing the word of God to mankind, being disbelieved, humiliated, spat on, tortured, and finally killed? What point was all this as a sacrifice only to gain something less than (as God, you say) he already had?

"GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. The term requires a different definition on each personal level of Deity function and must be still further redefined within each of these levels, as this term may be used to designate the diverse co-ordinate and subordinate personalizations of Deity; for example: the Paradise Creator Sons—the local universe fathers." UB 1955

 

[Brian2]

This verse does not say, “Jesus, being God,” but rather, “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

Morphe cannot mean the outward appearance of Jesus after He became a man, because God is invisible and Jesus had a physical body. Thus it is the inner likeness that is being referred to here and Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus was the image of the invisible God.

"did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" - It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God. (unlike Adam, who grasped at being like God - Gen. 3:5)

The pre human Jesus was the Son and as such was subject to the Father. He could have wanted to be on the same level of authority as His Father, but decided that He would do as His Father wanted and put aside what He did have, the equality with God that He did have already,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, which you tell us about,,,,,,,,,,,,, He was like God in every way.

"he emptied himself by taking on the form of a servant" - Christ, the Last Adam, “emptied himself” of all his reputation and the things due him as the true child of the King. Jesus humbled himself and always served others, put others before himself. (you added - He did this before he was a man) Heb. 2:17 Therefore he (Jesus) had to be made like his brothers in every respect

Jesus had to humble Himself to step down into the creation and become a man.
It does say that He emptied Himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
How could He do this after He was in the likeness of men. It was after taking the form of a servant and being born in the likeness of men that He found Himself in human form and became obedient to the death.

. . .
"humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death" - Yes, he always did the will of his Father. If he was God - he could not die; God is immortal.
"Being equal to God" - nothing says that in this section of scripture - He DID NOT grasp at equality with God.
I see no preexistence in this section of scripture.

If He did not become a man He would not have died, but becoming a man allowed Him to die physically,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but of course that does not mean that He went out of existence, He remained alive as a soul. (Matt 10:28)

I judge as I hear . . . who does he hear from?
There is another who testifies in my favor . . . his testimony about me is true . . . Who is another who testifies in Jesus' favor? (In your law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me. [John 8:17,18])
All I can say is that Jesus was totally dependent upon his Father - God is dependent upon no one. The NT always sets the Son in subjection to his Father. Did Jesus perfectly represent his Father? - Yes.

He hears from His Father. The Son is not the Father.
Jesus was totally dependant on His Father, true. Jesus has imo always been totally dependant of His Father. His Father is His source of life. Jesus could have grasped equality (which as you told us, He has) but He could not kill His source of life.
The Father also depends on the Son and Spirit to have someone to love in eternity, otherwise God is love and His love goes nowhere except maybe into loving Himself.

That was said in the context of humility and not using reputation to set yourself higher than others. A father is always greater than the son in any relationship.

Jesus asked the Jews how the Messiah who is the Son of David, could be called "my Lord" by David (Psalm 110) That one is easy to answer for a Trinitarian, but was not so easy for the Jews, and maybe for you also.

The one who gives the inheritance is God and the one who received the inheritance is Jesus - not God giving the inheritance and God receiving the inheritance. IMO - if the Father is God and the Son is God - they are God - seeing there in only one God.
Yep, all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus from God the Father.

Yes the man with no authority on earth was given the Kingdom of God (Dan 7:13) and the rule over it and all the power in heaven and on earth. His Father glorified Him as Jesus had glorified His Father and His Father served Him by putting all His enemies under His feet.
With the inheritance it is better to see it as the Father giving it to the Son. (the real Son who really gets His life from His Father).
But you should know that even while on earth the Son said that He owned all that the Father has (John 16:15) and that includes the name above all names (YHWH) which He later inherited as the man who died and was raised and is given all that belonged to Him anyway as a man.

I agree that Jesus was made in the image of God as all humanity was. I agree that Jesus totally reflected the characteristics of his Father. But an image or imprint is not the same as the original. Is the imprint or image of Lincoln on a penny literally Lincoln? Is your reflection of yourself in the mirror or in a picture literally you?
Yes, Jesus is at the right hand of God, who is his Father and will hand over the kingdom to God the Father when death is destroyed, he will again be subject to God the Father and God will be all in all. Remember that the Father is the one true God.

Jesus is the perfect image of the invisible God, and the Son is not His Father, true, He is the true Son, the one who is perfectly like His Father and who is one with His Father, (one thing)
The Father is the one true God and His Son is in Him and one with Him.
The Spirit also, who knows the mind of God and grieves and teaches us and speaks etc etc also is the Spirit of God, and is called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit is not an it but is another person who joins the Father and Son as one, and in perfect love.
And yes when all this salvation stuff is complete then the Son also will be subject to His Father. But the Son rules over the Kingdom of God forever. (Isa 9:6-7,Dan 7:13) He is more than the man you want to make Him out to be.
Zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Sea and the other half toward the Western Sea, in summer and winter alike. 9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.
The Son has the name YHWH along with His Father remember and it is the YHWH alone who will be King over all the earth, but ofcourse the Messiah is ruling over the Kingdom forever, so I'll let you work that one out for yourself.
Ezekiel 37: 24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25 They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…

You did try to point that out but as I said if you continue reading and remember that when the Bible was first written there were no chapter breaks nor numbered verses so in the same context we read: Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come of which we are speaking. . . .

You are speaking about a passage about 6 verses past Heb 1:10-12 and with a different context.

 

[Brian2]

No, it is not saying that Jesus is Almighty God. He says himself praying to his Father - And this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God . . .
All three phrases used alpha and the omega, first and last, the beginning and the end are very similar in meaning and are used 5 times in scripture - 2 of which refer to God (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12) and 3 refer to Christ, the Son (Rev. 1:17, 2:8, 22:13). It is wrong to assume that just because Jesus shares characteristics or titles with God his Father - it does not make him God.
Rev. 1:17, 18 - I am the first and the last, the living one. I died, and behold I live forever more . . . unique to Jesus - God is immortal and cannot die.
Rev. 2:8 - The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life. . . . unique to Jesus - only Jesus died and was resurrected 3 days later never to die again - God is immortal and cannot die.
Rev. 22:12,13 - Behold I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done - unique to Jesus - God has handed all judgment to the Son - (John 5:22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son. . .)

Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
The Alpha and the Omega is the Almighty.
Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, and so the Almighty.
Is it the Messiah we are looking to come or is it God Almighty. By the looks of it is it both, because Rev 1:8 says it is the Almighty who is to come.
But of course we should remember that Jesus in Matt 28 said that all power in heaven and on earth has been given to Him, so rightly He is the Almighty. After rising from the death He inherited all power and authority in heaven and on earth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and as John 16:15 tells us, He owned it all anyway even while a man on earth before He inherited it.

If God cannot sin then Jesus cannot sin - then why tempt him and why and how did he suffer being tempted?
And how is this any encouragement to us? Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people for because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (Heb. 2:17,18) and For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15)

Satan is insane, let's face it, and wanted to try anything to mess up God's plan of salvation, but also if Satan could tempt Jesus to sin that means that, in order to be fair to humans and to Satan and the fallen angels, God would have had to say that "not sinning is obviously too hard and so everyone can live" or something like that.
But it is suffering when we are tempted and do not want to sin. That is a reason that we sin, because of the suffering of not sinning, of refusing our carnal nature what it wants. So we sin and it eases the suffering. Jesus did not sin and the suffering was not eased.

I think he was actually tempted but because of his obedience and submission to the Father - he didn't.

But as I said, we can't presume that the Son of God as a man found it any easier than we do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, it was because of His obedience to His Father that He kept on struggling in temptation and did not give up and it was because of His Godlike character that He was able to do that when all of His being, (His humanity since He was not using His Godhood to resist temptation) was screaming to give in.
Jesus knew whom He was and knew His Father unlike us who seem to have to rely more on our faith in the unknown.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many: and he shall bear their iniquities.

I believe he did not sin because he was created by God within the womb of Mary. He was genetically perfect, just as Adam was genetically perfect. Where Adam failed because he grasped at equality with God (Gen. 3:5) Jesus did not grasp at equality with God but remained humble and obedient, submitting to the will of God his Father. All humanity was created in the image of God but being born by natural conception between a man and a woman we carry Adam's sin - we have a sin nature - that's why the fact that Mary had not "known a man" was important.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---- 15) For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many . . .17) For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. . . . 19) For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Mary was the source of Jesus humanity, His carnal nature. Or are you saying like the Catholics do that Mary also was without sin.
Are you saying that Jesus did not have a sin nature because of the virginity of Mary? Do we catch this sin nature through our father?
You did say that Jesus did not have a sin nature and that sounds like you are saying that it was easier for Jesus to not sin than it is for us to not sin.

 

[Brian2]

What does the word ‘Christ’ mean?

Anointed one.

Does Jesus sit on the throne of God?

Or does Jesus eventually sit on the throne of David?

Jesus rules all of God's creation and that includes the earth, and not just Israel.

 

[amazing grace]

Again, we all have origins from the ancient days.

Jesus was prophesied to be the coming Messiah throughout the OT - his origin began at his birth just as our origin begins at birth. I don't Jesus "existed" before he was born and I don't believe any of us "existed" before we were born.

Even if the Jews though Jesus was saying that He was around in Abraham's time, that is no reason to stone Him.
With your translation (having the predicate "he") Jesus is saying that He was alive before Abraham. Jesus says nothing if you think He was just saying that He was the prophesied Messiah before Abraham was. If He was the Messiah 2000 years ago then He was the prophesied Messiah at the time of Abraham even He did not exist. It was a vacuous statement which meant nothing that they did not know.
You appear to be changng the plain meaning for a vacuous one because of your preconceived beliefs. It is not a proof text for you, but for me, and you want to change the plain meaning.

I am not changing the plain meaning of the text by adding the predicate "he" - In most instances where Jesus used the expression I am - the translators have "he" after I am . . . John 4:26; 8:24, 28; 13:19; 18:5, 6, 8 but not at John 8:58 - Why? So, it is not presumptuous of me to read it in the same manner as the other translations.
Jesus was prophesied before Abraham was even thought about - Genesis 3:15. And yes, Jesus was the prophesied Messiah at the time of Abraham which is how Abraham "saw" (perceived) Jesus' day.
My understanding does not make the text vacuous and I have not changed the meaning of the text - just reading the text without a trinitarian slant.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” 39 Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

The Jews knew what Jesus was saying when He said "I and the Father are one". What else could "one (thing)" mean but one God?
Jesus protests with Psalm 82 and claiming that He said He was the Son of God. And He may have gotten away with it but went on to say that "the Father is in me and I am in the Father", and then had to make an escape from their hands.
The thing is that they knew what sort of "Son of God" Jesus was saying that He was, one who came from His Father just as a human son comes from His Father.
They would have accepted it if Jesus had claimed to be a non divine Son, one that was anointed like a King etc and became a Son of God that way, but no, Jesus made it plain what type of Son of God He was.

Of course, these Jews protested! They did not believe that this man standing in front of them was the Messiah even seeing all the works he was doing in his Father's name (v37). And yes, just as trinitarians do they misunderstood the statement "I and the Father are one" meaning they were one in unity and purpose not "one thing". I pointed this out before - in John 17 - Jesus prayed for us (those who believe) - "that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us . . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one". When we are one with the Father and Jesus are we "god", i.e. "one thing"?

Jesus was the type of Son that Thomas could call "My God". (John 20:28) This is the type of Son that John 20:31 is talking about.
BTW it appears that what Jesus said to them in verse 36 above shows that Jesus was with His Father before becoming a man and it was there that God consecrated Him and then sent Him into the world.

The verse in John 20:28 does not explicitly assign the title "God" to Jesus. It does not read, “You are my Lord and my God,” instead, Thomas simply says both of these titles and we must use context to determine what is being referred to by Thomas.

All throughout the New Testament and the book of John, the overwhelming usage of “God” is in reference to the Father, and “Lord” is in reference to Jesus. Thomas did not believe that Jesus had been raised and was alive - he exclaimed: "My Lord and my God" recognition that Jesus was actually alive and recognition of the one who raised him from the dead.
In the same context of John 20 - v17: “Jesus said to her, ‘Do not touch me, because I have not yet gone up to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, “I am going up to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”‘” How would ‘God’ (Jesus) have a ‘God’ (the Father) if there is only one God?

v36 - Jesus was sanctified by God, but God does not need to be sanctified. How was Jesus sent into the world? He was conceived and born just as any other human being.

That is reading something into the passage that is not there. When people start doing that sort of thing and twisting the plain meaning of passages to match their preconceived ideas, I can usually tell how blinded they have become to the meaning that is in the scriptures. You do that with quite a few passages that show Jesus having a pre existence, a real one.

How is that reading something into the passage that is not there when Heb. 2:5 is there clearly written?
As far as being accused of twisting the plain meaning of passages to match their preconceived ideas - I could easily say the same about Trinitarians. Scripture plainly teaches that God is one, He alone is God and that the Father is the one true God.
Jesus was sent by God, His only begotten Son, conceived and born of a woman, and Jesus has a God and that God is his Father.

 

[Brian2]

I know that Trinitarians say they believe Jesus to be a "real" man BUT a "real" man is not God nor a God-man.
I don't believe that Jesus was a spirit either.
See - you say you believe Jesus to be a "real" man but then you say "the eternal Son"?
Yes, I agree that God enabled Jesus to attain perfection.

How can someone who is the Eternal Son of God become someone who is not the Eternal Son of God?
But this Son of God who has all the attributes of God can become a man and not use those magic powers. He still has the character of His Father, He is who He is.
He was a man with a body and soul, as we are and imo His soul from heaven, from God, was the spirit part that was placed in and joined to the body that Jesus got.
Real man with a soul that is the same essence as God His Father. The man with the imprint of the essence/nature of God (Heb 1).
Jesus of course was perfect in character from birth imo but He probably had to learn things as we do and no doubt was disciplined by His parents when He innocently did the wrong things. (He grew in wisdom and stature).
He was perfected at His resurrection however when His body was changed to a glorified one.
But it was not God the Father who was resisting the temptation it was the man Jesus, and it was the man Jesus who suffered and died.

 

[Brian2]

Are you saying that Jesus was almighty God; the God of the Israelites; the God who said, ‘I created all things by myself’ and ‘besides me there is no other God’?

Are you saying that the Son of God is God?

Are you saying that the Son of man is God in Heaven today? Seated next to God? Equal to God?

Are you saying that God-God who is permanently seated on His great throne (The ancient of days) is Jesus-God (one like the son of man) who will be brought before and seated on the throne of David as ruler over the created world?

Lastly, if Jesus is God and is rewarded with a lesser throne than God… what was the point and purpose of his great deeds in resisting sin, bringing the word of God to mankind, being disbelieved, humiliated, spat on, tortured, and finally killed? What point was all this as a sacrifice only to gain something less than (as God, you say) he already had?

"And Thomas said to Him, My Lord and My God." That is all you need to know.

 

[Brian2]

And yes, just as trinitarians do they misunderstood the statement "I and the Father are one" meaning they were one in unity and purpose not "one thing". I pointed this out before - in John 17 - Jesus prayed for us (those who believe) - "that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us . . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one". When we are one with the Father and Jesus are we "god", i.e. "one thing"?

I pointed out the grammar. "One" is neuter and so means "one thing".
No Jesus prayed that believers would be one and we are if we are in the body of Christ and being led by the Spirit. We are one body, one Temple.
It is Jesus in us and the Father is in Jesus. We are joined in spirit to Jesus and taste divinity but do not receive it.

The verse in John 20:28 does not explicitly assign the title "God" to Jesus. It does not read, “You are my Lord and my God,” instead, Thomas simply says both of these titles and we must use context to determine what is being referred to by Thomas.

You know Thomas was calling Jesus "My Lord". You just don't want to say that he was calling Jesus "My God".
But Thomas knew the teachings of Jesus and who Jesus claimed to be,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, equal to God His Father and so God Himself.

All throughout the New Testament and the book of John, the overwhelming usage of “God” is in reference to the Father, and “Lord” is in reference to Jesus. Thomas did not believe that Jesus had been raised and was alive - he exclaimed: "My Lord and my God" recognition that Jesus was actually alive and recognition of the one who raised him from the dead.
In the same context of John 20 - v17: “Jesus said to her, ‘Do not touch me, because I have not yet gone up to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, “I am going up to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”‘” How would ‘God’ (Jesus) have a ‘God’ (the Father) if there is only one God?

Jesus was a man still after His resurrection. A man has a God. Jesus Father is His God now but was not His God before He became a man.
(Psalm 22:10)

v36 - Jesus was sanctified by God, but God does not need to be sanctified. How was Jesus sent into the world? He was conceived and born just as any other human being.

Jesus was set apart for a purpose and sent into the earth through becoming a man in a woman.

How is that reading something into the passage that is not there when Heb. 2:5 is there clearly written?
As far as being accused of twisting the plain meaning of passages to match their preconceived ideas - I could easily say the same about Trinitarians. Scripture plainly teaches that God is one, He alone is God and that the Father is the one true God.
Jesus was sent by God, His only begotten Son, conceived and born of a woman, and Jesus has a God and that God is his Father.

Heb 1:10-12 clearly tells us that God has said that about Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,, what has He said, that Jesus laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with His hands and that He also will roll them up when they get old.
You deny that. You say no, God must be making a mistake, Jesus did not do that, look there is a verse here half a dozen verses away which says:
Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
So that means that Hebrews 1:10-12 was not about the current earth and heavens or about Jesus rolling them up.
But no, it was about those things and the only part about the world to come is after Jesus rolls the old earth up.

 

[amazing grace]

Morphe cannot mean the outward appearance of Jesus after He became a man, because God is invisible and Jesus had a physical body. Thus it is the inner likeness that is being referred to here and Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus was the image of the invisible God.

You disagree with most scholars. We are also in the image of the invisible God.

The pre human Jesus was the Son and as such was subject to the Father. He could have wanted to be on the same level of authority as His Father, but decided that He would do as His Father wanted and put aside what He did have, the equality with God that He did have already,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, which you tell us about,,,,,,,,,,,,, He was like God in every way.

I have said all I need to say concerning Phil. 2 and it is becoming repetitive.

Jesus had to humble Himself to step down into the creation and become a man.
It does say that He emptied Himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
How could He do this after He was in the likeness of men. It was after taking the form of a servant and being born in the likeness of men that He found Himself in human form and became obedient to the death.

Where does scripture say that Jesus stepped down into creation and became a man?
What you actually mean is God stepped down into creation and became a man.
Unless, I see something new to respond to - I have said all I need to say concerning Phil. 2 and it is becoming repetitive.

If He did not become a man He would not have died, but becoming a man allowed Him to die physically,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but of course that does not mean that He went out of existence, He remained alive as a soul. (Matt 10:28)

"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Jesus died and was placed in a tomb and was raised to life by God after three days and three nights.
If Jesus did not actually die we have no justification nor reconciliation (among other things): - Romans 5:6, 8-10 For while we were still were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. . . . but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life!

He hears from His Father. The Son is not the Father.
Jesus was totally dependant on His Father, true. Jesus has imo always been totally dependant of His Father. His Father is His source of life. Jesus could have grasped equality (which as you told us, He has) but He could not kill His source of life.
The Father also depends on the Son and Spirit to have someone to love in eternity, otherwise God is love and His love goes nowhere except maybe into loving Himself

Jesus heard from God, his God and Father. Of course, the Son is not the Father and since the Son is not the Father and the Father is the one true God - then Jesus is not God either.

Jesus asked the Jews how the Messiah who is the Son of David, could be called "my Lord" by David (Psalm 110) That one is easy to answer for a Trinitarian, but was not so easy for the Jews, and maybe for you also.

I addressed this verse previously. Again, you continue to reference Jews that were UNBELIEVERS!

Yes the man with no authority on earth was given the Kingdom of God (Dan 7:13) and the rule over it and all the power in heaven and on earth. His Father glorified Him as Jesus had glorified His Father and His Father served Him by putting all His enemies under His feet.
With the inheritance it is better to see it as the Father giving it to the Son. (the real Son who really gets His life from His Father).
But you should know that even while on earth the Son said that He owned all that the Father has (John 16:15) and that includes the name above all names (YHWH) which He later inherited as the man who died and was raised and is given all that belonged to Him anyway as a man.

Daniel 7:13 is proof that Jesus is not God! - "there came one like a son of man (Jesus) and he came to the Ancient of Days (God) and was presented before him." This is a vision of what was to come - a future event.

Jesus is the perfect image of the invisible God, and the Son is not His Father, true, He is the true Son, the one who is perfectly like His Father and who is one with His Father, (one thing)
The Father is the one true God and His Son is in Him and one with Him.
The Spirit also, who knows the mind of God and grieves and teaches us and speaks etc etc also is the Spirit of God, and is called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit is not an it but is another person who joins the Father and Son as one, and in perfect love.

Jesus perfectly represents the God the Father which is why he said "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
Correct, the Son is not the Father - the Father is the only true God and therefore the Son is not God.
If we believe in the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, we are all one with theSon and with the Father. - "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us. . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one".
The Holy Spirit is God . . . When God created - His Spirit was hovering over the face of the earth. When Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit it was God they lied to.
The Spirit of Christ is just that - the Spirit of Christ sometimes referred to as "the Spirit".

And yes when all this salvation stuff is complete then the Son also will be subject to His Father. But the Son rules over the Kingdom of God forever. (Isa 9:6-7,Dan 7:13) He is more than the man you want to make Him out to be.
Zechariah 14:8 And on that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the Eastern Sea and the other half toward the Western Sea, in summer and winter alike. 9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.
The Son has the name YHWH along with His Father remember and it is the YHWH alone who will be King over all the earth, but ofcourse the Messiah is ruling over the Kingdom forever, so I'll let you work that one out for yourself.
Ezekiel 37: 24 My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25 They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…

Jesus will rule over the Millennial Kingdom until the last enemy, death is destroyed which happens at Rev. 20:14 when death and hades (the place of the dead) are thrown into the lake of fire and then he delivers the kingdom to God the Father so that God may be all in all -

You are speaking about a passage about 6 verses past Heb 1:10-12 and with a different context.

It's not a different context at all - it is a continuation of what has been said before!

 

[amazing grace]

Ok, I understand how the views of God and Jesus are different in different ideologies.

I look at this statement made by God (speaking of the Messiah):

• “You are my Son; This day I have become your Father”

Is it me - am I the only one who sees that statement as an ADOPTION DECLARATION?

At an adoption ceremony or event, as the adoption papers are signed, is that declaration not something a happy Father says to the child he has just adopted?

Jesus is the only one from humanity that God ever said that to; He is therefore said to be the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God.

Jesus is the first begotten AND the last begotten BY GOD… all others who ADOPTED to Sonship of God (and therefore, Brothers with Christ) are adopted through Jesus Christ:

• ‘[God] predestined [the Elect] for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will’ (Eph 1:5)

I am not suggesting that God procreated a spirit Son nor a human Son. My definition of ‘Son’ is:

• “He who does the works [the Father] has given him to do”

You will see the simile from the little-read book of Philemon where the apostle Paul ADOPTS the runaway slave, Onesimus, because Onesimus greatly pleased Paul, who was in chains in prison in Rome. Onesimus carried out all the tasks commissioned to him by Paul in regard to contact with the widespread churches so well that Paul is said to ‘BEGET’ Onesimus as HIS OWN SON:

• “I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains.” (Philemon 1:10)

I can imagine Paul saying in delightfulness to Onesimus:

• ‘I will be to you, a Father; and you will be to me, a Son’
• ‘[From now on] You are my Son; This day I have become a Father to you’

I believe that Jesus was miraculously conceived in the womb of Mary when the Holy Spirit, the power of the Most High overshadowed her. God created in the womb of Mary what was necessary for a child to be conceived and she carried Jesus for nine months and gave birth to a son - that son being named Jesus, the Son of God. As for us, yes, we become adopted through faith in Jesus Christ and are then children of God through the new birth.

I don't know about Onesimus - in Philemon Paul uses the term "my son Onesimus" then in Colossians Paul says: "I have sent him (Tychius, a beloved brother) to you for this very purpose, that you may know how we are and that he may encourage your hearts, and with him Onesiums, our faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you."

———————————
Rulership over all creation:
Jesus is the only one from mankind that God has given rulership over creation.

Would you prefer ‘…will give rulership over creation’?

I’m suggesting that God gave rulership over creation to the angel who came to be known as ‘[the] Satan’ and ‘the Devil’. This is borne out by many verses such as even Jesus stating:

• ‘The ruler of this world has come into his kingdom’

And ‘Satan’ saying to Jesus:

• ‘Bow down and worship me and I will give you all this [Creation]; it is MINE TO GIVE TO WHOM I WILL’

The situation here is that ‘Satan’ knows that Jesus is destined to become the ruler of the world as he, Satan, is merely in STEWARDSHIP over the world…:

• ‘For [God] has by no means subjected the world to come to angels’ (Hebrews 2:5)

I believe that Adam transferred dominion over the earth to Satan when he disobeyed God which is how he came into possession of it to offer it to Jesus in the temptations. I believe that Jesus will eventually have rulership over creation during the Millennial Kingdom and when the "end" - death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire - Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father so that God will be all in all.

 

[amazing grace]

I pointed out the grammar. "One" is neuter and so means "one thing".
No Jesus prayed that believers would be one and we are if we are in the body of Christ and being led by the Spirit. We are one body, one Temple.
It is Jesus in us and the Father is in Jesus. We are joined in spirit to Jesus and taste divinity but do not receive it.

One is one - God is one being not a "thing". I directly quoted what Jesus said in John 17 and that is what I will stand by.
Yes, I agree: "For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another." (Romans 12:4, 5); "For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. (1 Cor. 12:12) But that does not make the individual members "one thing" - I am not you and you are not me.

You know Thomas was calling Jesus "My Lord". You just don't want to say that he was calling Jesus "My God".
But Thomas knew the teachings of Jesus and who Jesus claimed to be,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, equal to God His Father and so God Himself.

Yes, Thomas knew the teachings of Jesus and Jesus never taught that he was God nor any kind of trinity.

Jesus was a man still after His resurrection. A man has a God. Jesus Father is His God now but was not His God before He became a man.
(Psalm 22:10)

Yes, Jesus has a God and has always had a God and that God is his Father - the one true God.

Jesus was set apart for a purpose and sent into the earth through becoming a man in a woman.

Yes, Jesus was set apart for a purpose and that purpose was to reconcile people back to God and provide the means of salvation to those who believe in him. He came into existence/sent by God via conception in the womb of Mary to be born.

Heb 1:10-12 clearly tells us that God has said that about Jesus,,,,,,,,,,,, what has He said, that Jesus laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with His hands and that He also will roll them up when they get old.
You deny that. You say no, God must be making a mistake, Jesus did not do that, look there is a verse here half a dozen verses away which says:
Hebrews 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
So that means that Hebrews 1:10-12 was not about the current earth and heavens or about Jesus rolling them up.
But no, it was about those things and the only part about the world to come is after Jesus rolls the old earth up.

Jesus himself said that God created: "For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now and never will be." Mark 13:19 If Jesus created in the beginning he would have said: "from the beginning of the creation that "I" created" . . There will be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness and THAT is what Jesus is creating - the "world to come" or "age to come."

 

[Oeste]

It doesn't matter what you call "encomium", who cares?

That sounds petty.

The Watchtower gave their own examples of similes. Did you write the organization or give them a "who cares" response during book study?:

Scripture can inspire Ely. It can inspire us to think, it can inspire us to act, and it can inspire us to write. If God can inspire the prophets to write encomiums, similes, or to speak in prose, then of course he can inspire us to do the same.

In any event, the encomium illustrates why it's rarely a good idea to take metaphors literally.

1 Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.

Exactly! This goes right to the heart and even the "spirit" of the matter. Can you imagine a public talk where everyone says "who cares?" every time the speaker uttered a word that failed to recite scripture?

Studying the Bible does not mean seeing it from an intellectual point of view, since the Bible is not just a human literary art work, but rather it was inspired by the holy spirit of God and He, Jehovah, gave it to us to teach us many things that we would not learn otherwise (Hb. 4:12; 2 Tim. 3:16).

It also does not mean simply reciting what we have read. We can reflect, internalize, personalize and express the word as well.

You are repeating yourself because you think that knowing that Pro.8:22-31 is a symbolism gives you any superior knowledge of what it means. Well, no; it is preventing you from the spiritual message it contains and which is far above the symbol itself.

Superior knowledge? I would say it gives better understanding. Also, I don't understand how reading about encomiums prevents someone from receiving the message through scripture. If that's true, then the WT did a disservice to their flock by explaining similes.

Any student of the Bible knows that the book of Prov. speaks of obtaining wisdom as a quality that helps to walk through life in such a way that we please God and obtain spiritual benefits that last forever.

Exactly right Ely! Proverbs, chapters 1-9 give praise to Lady Wisdom's qualities. It tells us we should seek those qualities. But it doesn't tell us Christ was created or a woman crying in the streets.

That in no way affects the fact that Prov. 8:22-31 refers to the Wisdom of God in a different sense: to refer to Jesus Christ and to describe his life before, when he became the means by which all things were created, as every Christian can verify in other Scriptures inspired by the same spirit that inspired the book of Proverbs.

This is where we disagree.

There is no "fact" that Lady Wisdom is the Wisdom of God. Lady Wisdom is a personification of Wisdom. The personification is as a woman. It's a metaphor. The Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ, a historical, male, living, literal person.

Does Christ have Wisdom? Absolutely! Is Christ called the Wisdom of God? Absolutely! Does this mean Proverbs 8:22-31 refers to a created Christ? Absolutely Not!

If you read, for example, Nathan's words to David here:

1 Chron. 17:11 “‘“When your days come to an end and you go to be with your forefathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your sons, and I will firmly establish his kingship. ...

... You will see in the first reading that they refer to Solomon, who would build the temple in Jerusalem, but without so much effort you would still understand that behind those words reference is also made to Jesus, who would be the descendant of David according to the flesh who would occupy the throne of God forever. It is easy to understand: a context first and a symbol behind.

Yes, in hermeneutics, commonly referred to as an allegorical interpretation. Some scriptural events can be interpreted to portend "types" and "shadows".

This was good. Why?

Because you didn't destroy the initial, obvious meaning to reach a foreshadowed second.

When you equate Lady Wisdom with Jesus Christ you do. Again, nothing wrong with claiming Christ has the benefits of Wisdom, but claiming Lady Wisdom is the man Jesus Christ destroys the initial meaning of Lady Wisdom in Proverbs so that you can reach your preferred, doctrinal, second.

In Col. 1:15-18 we can see how the same things said about wisdom in the Prov. 8:22-31 passage apply to Jesus:

Proverbs Chapter 1, right up to and including Proverbs Chapter 9, which INCLUDES Chapter 8, states Lady Wisdom is a WOMAN.

There is nothing in Proverbs 8:22-31 that suggest we need to carve the Lady Wisdom there and transition her into a man.

There is nothing in Col 1:15-18 that suggest Christians need to look at Proverbs 8:22-31 and interpret the Lady Wisdom we find there differently.

Prov. 8:22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. 25 Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth,

This is a personification, not a history of how Jesus was created. If God had to create Jesus to have wisdom, it means He didn't have any wisdom beforehand.

Here, the writer shows that God doesn't do things in a haphazard way. He is giving praise to an intrinsic attribute of God, and not discussing how God managed to somehow create an attribute He didn't have.

Now, let’s look at Col 1:15-18

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.​

You’ve already told us that Col 1:15-18 refers to Christ, and that Christ is not God, but just a man.

Since man was not created until the sixth day at Garden of Eden, then Christ could not possibly be the “earliest of his achievements of long ago” or brough forth "before the deep waters" since by that time the earth and the universe had already been created.

I realize your theory is from the WT, but it pushes Adam from the first man ever created to being the second man ever created.

Lastly, since Wisdom in Proverbs chapters 1 through 9 specifically describes Wisdom as a woman, it would also mean the man we call Jesus was initially created as a woman long before Eve arrived on the scene. So Eve is no longer the first woman, but the second woman as well.

You can complete the picture by reading other passages like John 1 and Heb. 1. I don't need to beat you in an argument...the Bible speaks by itself

Yes it does, and I'm glad you don't feel the need to beat me. I don't feel the need to beat you either, which tells me we both greatly prefer discussions over beatings.

and no one cares what an "encomium" is, so you can write off your intellectuality for nothing.

I appreciate your ability to speak for everyone Eli, but when I see you writing the Watchtower demanding they remove their rampant intellectualist article on similes I promise to delete it.

I can't help but feel you have a long measuring rod for them but a rather short one for me.

That's it for today. Have a good one.

It's late, so that's it for me too. . I'm way past my bedtime, not to mention behind in my work, so I hope to read and catch up on some of the other posts over the weekend. May you be blessed as well.

 

[Brian2]

You disagree with most scholars. We are also in the image of the invisible God.

Are you saying that the invisible God looks like a human?

Where does scripture say that Jesus stepped down into creation and became a man?

That comes from understanding that all things were made through the Son, the pre human Jesus, (Col 1, Heb 1, John 1 etc) and so the pre human Jesus was not a part of creation. So the uncreated pre human Jesus stepped into the creation by becoming a man.

What you actually mean is God stepped down into creation and became a man.

What I actually mean is that the Son of God stepped down into creation and became a man.

"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Jesus died and was placed in a tomb and was raised to life by God after three days and three nights.
If Jesus did not actually die we have no justification nor reconciliation (among other things): - Romans 5:6, 8-10 For while we were still were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. . . . but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life!

It sounds as if you have the same idea of human death as the JWs have. Do you think that at the death of the body our soul continues on living as Matt 10:28 tells us?

Jesus heard from God, his God and Father. Of course, the Son is not the Father and since the Son is not the Father and the Father is the one true God - then Jesus is not God either.

That's logical, and if that was all we had to go by then Jesus is not God. And in one sense Jesus is not God, but is the Son of God who is in His Father and is one (thing) with His Father. So the one true God includes His Son.

I addressed this verse previously. Again, you continue to reference Jews that were UNBELIEVERS!

I have not spoken to you about this verse or the associated Psalm 110 and why the son of David is greater than David.

Daniel 7:13 is proof that Jesus is not God! - "there came one like a son of man (Jesus) and he came to the Ancient of Days (God) and was presented before him." This is a vision of what was to come - a future event.

It is a vision of the resurrected Jesus going to God His Father and receiving the Kingdom,,,,,,, all power in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28)

If we believe in the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, we are all one with theSon and with the Father. - "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us. . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one".
The Holy Spirit is God . . . When God created - His Spirit was hovering over the face of the earth. When Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit it was God they lied to.
The Spirit of Christ is just that - the Spirit of Christ sometimes referred to as "the Spirit".

Nowhere does it say that believers are one with the Father.
We are one with each other, one body, and are joined in spirit to Jesus. His Spirit of adoption lives in us and makes us children adopted children of God in Him.
It is the Son who is said to be one thing with the Father.
There is just one Spirit (Eph 4:4-6) and the Father and Son both have that one Spirit, which is also given to believers and through whom the Father and Son dwell with believers. (John 14:23) The Spirit has different functions in different people and in believers, it brings us into adoption as children of God and gives us various gifts and works in us to change us to the image of Jesus. (Romans 8:14-17 etc)

Jesus will rule over the Millennial Kingdom until the last enemy, death is destroyed which happens at Rev. 20:14 when death and hades (the place of the dead) are thrown into the lake of fire and then he delivers the kingdom to God the Father so that God may be all in all -

Yes the Kingdom is handed back to God the Father, but the Messiah (God's servant David, also see Dan 7:13 and Isa 9:6-7 etc) rules it forever (according to the scriptures) and the way I read it, incorporating a few verses, is that the Son, in whom dwells the fullness of Deity bodily, is subject to His Father who is the Spirit in all, but the Son, who is also YHWH, is the one ruling the Kingdom.
Zechariah 14:9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.
So we see Jesus bodily and know in Him is the fullness of God and He is YHWH who is ruling the Kingdom.
Scripture tells us the YHWH alone will be King and scripture also tells us that the Messiah will be King. That is the dilemma and what I gave is the answer which is a trinitarian one. I don't know how a Unitarian would answer it.
Mind blowing for a Unitarian, sorry, I suppose it does not even make sense to you.

It's not a different context at all - it is a continuation of what has been said before!

It does not say that Hebrews 1:10-12 was not about Jesus and what He did and will do.
Heb 2:5 is just a statement about the coming Kingdom which you have grabbed onto and want to say that it means that Hebrews 1:10-12 is not about the creation of this earth, when in fact that is all it can be about when we read it. It clearly tells us that the pre human Jesus is YHWH who laid the foundations of the earth and spread out the heavens and will roll it all up etc.

 

[Brian2]

One is one - God is one being not a "thing". I directly quoted what Jesus said in John 17 and that is what I will stand by.
Yes, I agree: "For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another." (Romans 12:4, 5); "For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. (1 Cor. 12:12) But that does not make the individual members "one thing" - I am not you and you are not me.

The Father is not the Son either but that does not stop them from being, together, one thing.
You can stand by what you quoted but I also stand by what you quoted,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and I say that because of the grammar it cannot mean one in harmony, and you ignore the grammar.
"I and the Father are one" does not automatically mean in harmony and when we look at the grammar it does not mean that.

Yes, Thomas knew the teachings of Jesus and Jesus never taught that he was God nor any kind of trinity.

Well actually Jesus was teaching about Himself being one with the Father and being in the Father and being the Son who came down from heaven, from His Father etc etc.
I hear JWs also try to answer John 20:28, and they have a variety of responses,,,,,,,,,,,, one being that Thomas was shouting an exclamation of surprise, shock "My Lord and My God!!!" But basically they are like you and have no answer,,,,,,,,,,,,, but the answer lies in the fact that their understanding of Jesus is flawed, as is yours.

Yes, Jesus has a God and has always had a God and that God is his Father - the one true God.

Jesus, as YHWH through whom all things were created, had a God only when He became a man, and from then on.

Yes, Jesus was set apart for a purpose and that purpose was to reconcile people back to God and provide the means of salvation to those who believe in him. He came into existence/sent by God via conception in the womb of Mary to be born.

He was conceived in Mary as a man and that means that the life which was in the Father was put into Mary at that conception. That was not a creation, that was a conception, the transference of a life to grow in a womb.

Jesus himself said that God created: "For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now and never will be." Mark 13:19 If Jesus created in the beginning he would have said: "from the beginning of the creation that "I" created" . . There will be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness and THAT is what Jesus is creating - the "world to come" or "age to come."

You seem to use the New World Translation, which is not the most accurate of translations, imo.
And yes God created, there is nothing wrong with that. God created all things through the pre human Jesus, the Son who has been with Him from eternity and who is exactly like Him.
In the beginning was the Logos. The phrase "the Logos" indicates a person, not a thing, and later on in the chapter we see that there actually was life in the Logos and He is called God.
The NWT probably doesn't help your view of Jesus, as they have a different view.

BTW what do you make of this verse?
Mal 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
I see the first messenger as John the Baptist who prepares the way before YHWH (me) and that John was preparing the way before Jesus, the Lord they were seeking, and who came to His Temple. The Temple in Jerusalem,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, making Jesus God, since it was His Temple, or was it the temple of His body, which shows He came to earth to a body and did not just start off in the body.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, Thomas knew the teachings of Jesus and Jesus never taught that he was God nor any kind of trinity.

The conversation went like this:
John 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

To me this shows that Jesus agreed with what Thomas had said.

Yes, Jesus was set apart for a purpose and that purpose was to reconcile people back to God and provide the means of salvation to those who believe in him. He came into existence/sent by God via conception in the womb of Mary to be born.

A few other verses about the pre existence of Jesus:

John 3:12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

John 6:32 Jesus then said to them,:“Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is vhe who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

John 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

John 8: 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 16: 26 In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”

 

[Soapy]

We trinitarians certainly believe Jesus to be a real man and do not presume to say that to live the perfect life, and be obedient to His Father's will was an easy thing for Him.
Jesus did live life as a man of flesh and blood and not as a spirit who is not tempted by carnal things. It is because of Him being the eternal Son with the character of His Father which enabled Him to do that imo.

What is an ETERNAL SON?

 

[amazing grace]

Are you saying that the invisible God looks like a human?

No, not at all. You keep saying Jesus was made in the image of the invisible God so I just said all humanity is made in the image of God - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

That comes from understanding that all things were made through the Son, the pre human Jesus, (Col 1, Heb 1, John 1 etc) and so the pre human Jesus was not a part of creation. So the uncreated pre human Jesus stepped into the creation by becoming a man.

In Colossians, what was created was not the heavens and earth but "thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities" regarding Christ's body the church of which he is the head and also in relation to the coming kingdom; Heb. 1 is refering to the "age to come" and John 1 is concerning the world being created through God's spoken word.

What I actually mean is that the Son of God stepped down into creation and became a man.

Do you or do you not believe that Jesus was God? So truthfully, "the uncreated prehuman Jesus stepped into the creation by becoming a man" - you actually believe that God became a man because you believe that Jesus is God, just not God the Father. . . .

It sounds as if you have the same idea of human death as the JWs have. Do you think that at the death of the body our soul continues on living as Matt 10:28 tells us?

I don't know what the JW's believe about death; I only know what scripture says of death. I know the lie of the devil in Genesis - "You shall not surely die". I know that when a man or woman dies, they are dead. If people immediately go to heaven when they die - then death would be something to look forward to but death is an enemy. [1 Cor. 15:26]
Job 14:12 “so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.” [The resurrection]
Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?” ("sheol" the place of the dead)
Ps. 30:9 “What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?” [The “pit” was an idiom for the grave and death.] . . . . I figure if the dead went to heaven upon death - they would surely"remember God and would be praising Him.

That's logical, and if that was all we had to go by then Jesus is not God. And in one sense Jesus is not God, but is the Son of God who is in His Father and is one (thing) with His Father. So the one true God incorporated His Son.

It seems you are saying Jesus is God and then you say "in one sense Jesus is not God" - either you believe Jesus is God or you are not sure what you believe. Again, the "in" thing - Yes, the Father is in Jesus, Jesus is in the Father but that doesn't make them one and the same for we (the body) are also "one in us" (the Father and the Son John 17:21)
"the one true God incorporated His Son" - what the heck does that mean?

I have not spoken to you about this verse or the associated Psalm 110 and why the son of David is greater than David.

"Yahweh says to my Lord - David's Lord is Christ the Messiah. Psalm 110:1. (The Hebrew Lexicon by Brown, Driver and Briggs (BDB), considered by many to be the best available, makes the distinction between these words. Note how in BDB the word adoni refers to “lords” that are not God, while another word, adonai, refers to God) adon - root word; adoni - lord, used of men or angels and adonai/adonay is used for God.

It is a vision of the resurrected Jesus going to God His Father and receiving the Kingdom,,,,,,, all power in heaven and on earth. (Matt 28)

God IS THE FATHER, the ONE TRUE GOD - so it is yes, it is a vision of the resurrected Christ being presented before God - a future event.
Matt. 28 - All power in heaven and on earth was GIVEN to him but the Kingdom is NOT given at this time because all things are not in subjection to him YET - the last enemy has not been destroyed, i.e. death - last I noticed people are still dying.

Nowhere does it say that believers are one with the Father.
We are one with each other, one body, and are joined in spirit to Jesus. His Spirit of adoption lives in us and makes us children adopted children of God in Him.
It is the Son who is said to be one thing with the Father.
There is just one Spirit (Eph 4:4-6) and the Father and Son both have that one Spirit, which is also given to believers and through whom the Father and Son dwell with believers. (John 14:23) The Spirit has different functions in different people and in believers, it brings us into adoption as children of God and gives us various gifts and works in us to change us to the image of Jesus. (Romans 8:14-17 etc)

You are really stubborn when it comes to John 17! I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, . . . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one. Does not the Spirit of God dwell in us? And the Spirit of Christ? (Romans 8:9-11)

Yes the Kingdom is handed back to God the Father, but the Messiah (God's servant David, also see Dan 7:13 and Isa 9:6-7 etc) rules it forever (according to the scriptures) and the way I read it, incorporating a few verses, is that the Son, in whom dwells the fullness of Deity bodily, is subject to His Father who is the Spirit in all, but the Son, who is also YHWH, is the one ruling the Kingdom.
Zechariah 14:9 On that day the LORD will become King over all the earth— the LORD alone, and His name alone.
So we see Jesus bodily and know in Him is the fullness of God and He is YHWH who is ruling the Kingdom.
Scripture tells us the YHWH alone will be King and scripture also tells us that the Messiah will be King. That is the dilemma and what I gave is the answer which is a trinitarian one. I don't know how a Unitarian would answer it.
Mind blowing for a Unitarian, sorry, I suppose it does not even make sense to you.

The Messiah is not David! The Messiah is David's Lord and God's Son - Jesus. The Messiah will rule in the Millennial Kingdom forever (forever can mean a long length of time, a period of time) when all things are put into subjection to him, [the last enemy death destroyed (when death and hades thrown into the Lake of Fire)], then he will hand the Kingdom over to God - God's eternal Kingdom, the new heavens and new earth, the new Jerusalem. Not mind blowing for a Unitarian at all!

It does not say that Hebrews 1:10-12 was not about Jesus and what He did and will do.
Heb 2:5 is just a statement about the coming Kingdom which you have grabbed onto and want to say that it means that Hebrews 1:10-12 is not about the creation of this earth, when in fact that is all it can be about when we read it. It clearly tells us that the pre human Jesus is YHWH who laid the foundations of the earth and spread out the heavens and will roll it all up etc.

I see that you are stubborn in this area also! You are determined that Jesus was God, i.e. Yahweh - which is bringing God down to the level of His creation.

Have to go mow the yard before it gets to hot . . . get back at this later. Thanks.