Jesus - First Born?

[amazing grace]

It is true that Hebrews 1 shows the superiority of the Son over the angels and that He is equal to His Father and is God, but I had originally included Bebrews 1:8,9 to show that Heb 1:8,9 was what God had said about His Son and that with the "And" between Hebrews 1:8,9 and Hebrews 1:10-12, that Hebrews 1:10-12 also was what God had said about His Son.

Why would the author throw in Hebrews 1:10-12 from Psalm 102 if it had nothing to do with what he had been talking about?
He has been talking about what God said about the Son compared to what He said about the angels.
From verse 5 on to the end of the chapter the contrast is between the Son and angels and you want the author to throw in a quote at Heb 1:10-12 that has nothing to do with the theme. That is strange, especially since we have;
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,

The And joins 2 quotes about the Son.

And the quote at Heb 1:10-12 makes sense being about the Son when we see in Heb 1:2 that God created the world through the Son.
This "through the son" shows us that He, the Word, was the Son when the world was created through Him.

All these OT verses are being used as a hymn-like celebration announcing the exalted Christ and his enthronement of God's Messiah-king after making purification of sins. "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the world" - yes, it is through the Son - the Son is being spoken of as the agent of creation just as wisdom was spoken of as being an agent of creation in Prov. 3:19 "The LORD by wisdom founded the earth . .". Just as in Proverbs (God's) wisdom is personified as a woman - God's wisdom is personified in the person, Jesus Christ. He is the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Cor. 1:22) And carrying the theme of Christ's exaltation in Chap. 2:7; we see that God has set the exalted Jesus, the anointed Messiah-King over the works of his hands.

What you said about Jesus not yet having been born at the creation of the world makes sense until you realise that I was just using the name "Jesus" to refer to the pre human Jesus, the Word, and that it did not mean that the human Jesus was there creating the world in the beginning.

Yes the Son of God was sent to become a man, lower than the angels and we can see in Phil 2 that He chose to do that.
Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

The pre human Jesus decided to empty himself and take the form of a servant and become a man.

The Son of God was sent by God via a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary. Jesus was a man - made a little lower than the angels - just as all humankind.

What was the "pre human" Jesus before he was born for there is no such term as the "pre human Jesus". There is no such term as "God in the flesh". There is no such term as "God the Son". There is no such term as a "godman". You can find none of these terms in scripture - they are made up terms to try to explain a triune God.

 

[amazing grace]

Yet 1 Corinthians 15 says otherwise

"The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

Yes, Adam was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven - sent by God, came from God born of a woman through a miraculous conception. Yes, we will bear the image of the heavenly man when we are resurrected from the dead - that is the context from which you pulled these verses - the resurrection.

also

John 3
"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man."

Speaking of the new birth. Saying Jesus "came from heaven", "came from God", "the Father sent me", etc. does not show any type of preexistence only that Jesus sent from God via a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary. John is also a man sent from God . . . does that mean he preexisted? or that he is God?

 

[amazing grace]

Don’t beat yourself up about being wrong … a lesson learnt is praise earned. I certainly did understand what you wrote to me - and understood why you think how you do.

Q: What would you say that the purpose of an anointing was for?

Q: When would you say that God would ‘set aside’ an individual to be anointed by Him?

Q: After YHWH anointed Jesus of Nazareth WITH YHWH’S SPIRIT AND POWER, why do you think YHWH made Jesus (now called ‘Christ’ - ‘the anointed one’) go into the wilderness to be ‘Tempted of the Devil’?

Q: What did Jesus tell the people in the synagogue on the first sabbath after he returned from the wilderness?

Q: Did Jesus perform any miracles before he was anointed with ‘holy spirit’ and power? And what about afterwards?

Q: Where do you think Jesus obtained the power and authority to perform miracles - note that Jesus always prayed to YHWH before performing any miracle (oops, that’s a big hint!!)

Thank you in advance in anticipation of your worthy responses.

Ever wonder why questions put forth like this or in the context of responses are never answered?

 

[Brian2]

All these OT verses are being used as a hymn-like celebration announcing the exalted Christ and his enthronement of God's Messiah-king after making purification of sins. "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the world" - yes, it is through the Son - the Son is being spoken of as the agent of creation just as wisdom was spoken of as being an agent of creation in Prov. 3:19 "The LORD by wisdom founded the earth . .". Just as in Proverbs (God's) wisdom is personified as a woman - God's wisdom is personified in the person, Jesus Christ. He is the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Cor. 1:22) And carrying the theme of Christ's exaltation in Chap. 2:7; we see that God has set the exalted Jesus, the anointed Messiah-King over the works of his hands.

You are missing the point again. Heb 1:2 tells us that God made the world or universe through the Son.
You are concentrating on "through" and completely missing "the Son".
"The Son" shows a living being, not a quality such as "wisdom" or a command such as God's Word.
So I use the same argument against you that you used against me.
"The Son" had not been born at the creation of the world/universe according to you, and so did not exist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but the Bible tells us a different story, that God created everything through the Son.
Heb 1:10-12(which is about the Son) even tells us what that "through" means. It means that the Son actually laid the foundations of the earth and that He made the heavens with His own hands.
Then if that is not enough we see Heb 1:10-12 (which is about the Son) telling us that the world/universe will change and perish but that the Son will remain the same. IOW the Son will be the same forever,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just as He was when He made the heavens and the earth.
IOW it is talking about the living Son who made the heavens and the earth.

The Son of God was sent by God via a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary. Jesus was a man - made a little lower than the angels - just as all humankind.

What was the "pre human" Jesus before he was born for there is no such term as the "pre human Jesus". There is no such term as "God in the flesh". There is no such term as "God the Son". There is no such term as a "godman". You can find none of these terms in scripture - they are made up terms to try to explain a triune God.

Yes the Son of God who was there at the beginning, making the heavens and the earth, became a man.
But you not only missed the point that the Son was there at the creation, you are again missing the point of Phil 2:5-7. He was there, in the form of God, and chose to empty Himself and take the form of a servant and become a man.

 

[amazing grace]

You are missing the point again. Heb 1:2 tells us that God made the world or universe through the Son.
You are concentrating on "through" and completely missing "the Son".
"The Son" shows a living being, not a quality such as "wisdom" or a command such as God's Word.
So I use the same argument against you that you used against me.
"The Son" had not been born at the creation of the world/universe according to you, and so did not exist,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but the Bible tells us a different story, that God created everything through the Son.
Heb 1:10-12(which is about the Son) even tells us what that "through" means. It means that the Son actually laid the foundations of the earth and that He made the heavens with His own hands.
Then if that is not enough we see Heb 1:10-12 (which is about the Son) telling us that the world/universe will change and perish but that the Son will remain the same. IOW the Son will be the same forever,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just as He was when He made the heavens and the earth.
IOW it is talking about the living Son who made the heavens and the earth.

No, Jesus did not lay the foundation of the world. I know this because of Gen. 1, Isa. 42:5, 45:8, 12, 14 and Isa. 44:24 which specifically states "I am the LORD, who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF. . .,etc. The Son was not a living being until he was conceived and Mary gave birth to him. This whole section is referring to Jesus exaltation after his resurrection - he is appointed heir of all things after his resurrectionhe; he was exalted to God's right hand after his resurrection; he was made a little lower than the angels but crowned with glory and honor and set over the works of God's hands after his resurrection, his years will not fail for God has exalted him - God has ordained his Messiah-king and he will live forever.

Yes the Son of God who was there at the beginning, making the heavens and the earth, became a man.
But you not only missed the point that the Son was there at the creation, you are again missing the point of Phil 2:5-7. He was there, in the form of God, and chose to empty Himself and take the form of a servant and become a man.

I, of course, disagree. I don't disagree with Phil. 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you and then the example of Christ complete humility - the same humility we should have. If Jesus is God then we can't even attain the exhortation to "Let this mind be in you" for we cannot have the mind of God.
I see that you ignored my question: What was the "pre human" Jesus before he was born for there is no such term as the "pre human Jesus".

 

[Brian2]

No, Jesus did not lay the foundation of the world. I know this because of Gen. 1, Isa. 42:5, 45:8, 12, 14 and Isa. 44:24 which specifically states "I am the LORD, who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF. . .,etc. The Son was not a living being until he was conceived and Mary gave birth to him. This whole section is referring to Jesus exaltation after his resurrection - he is appointed heir of all things after his resurrectionhe; he was exalted to God's right hand after his resurrection; he was made a little lower than the angels but crowned with glory and honor and set over the works of God's hands after his resurrection, his years will not fail for God has exalted him - God has ordained his Messiah-king and he will live forever.

I, of course, disagree. I don't disagree with Phil. 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you and then the example of Christ complete humility - the same humility we should have. If Jesus is God then we can't even attain the exhortation to "Let this mind be in you" for we cannot have the mind of God.
I see that you ignored my question: What was the "pre human" Jesus before he was born for there is no such term as the "pre human Jesus".

The pre human Jesus is called "The Word" at John 1:1.
All things were brought into existence through the Word (John 1:3) just as the world/universe was made through the Son. (Heb 1:2)
So the Word is the pre human Son of God.

 

[Brian2]

I, of course, disagree. I don't disagree with Phil. 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you and then the example of Christ complete humility - the same humility we should have. If Jesus is God then we can't even attain the exhortation to "Let this mind be in you" for we cannot have the mind of God

The exhortation is to be humble with those who are your equal.
Phil 2 tells us that Jesus was equal to God and gave up that equality to become a servant, a man,,,,,,,,,,,,, lower than the angels.
If Jesus was not equal to God then it was a silly example to use.
Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Hebrews 1:1-4 tells us of the equality of the Son to God in important things.
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Hebrews 1:4 also tells us that He inherited a name from His Father, and that name has to be the Father's name, YHWH.
This is the name that is above all names, so it is YHWH. And He was given that name so that at the name of Jesus, YHWH, everyone will worship Him and confess that He is the Lord.

Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Interestingly Jesus at John 16:15 tells us that everything that the Father has belongs to Him (Jesus). That means that He was YHWH even while He was walking the earth, and when He was making the heavens with His hands He was YHWH then also. YHWH made the heavens and earth alone, and YHWH is not just the Father but is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we know that the Holy Spirit is also YHWH because the Lord is the Spirit (2Cor 3:17)
There are also other verses that show that the Son is YHWH and that the Holy Spirit is YHWH, but none of this even matters if you can't see that Jesus actually meant that He was in heaven with His Father before the world existed.
John 17: 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
John 6:50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”
Mark 10:45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
John 8:58,59 ".......before Abraham was I am"
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh,
Notice that God sent His Son, not beget a Son. He Son was sent to become a man.
And really the verses that tell us that, go on and on and they are plain verses.
You twist what is plain and make it mean what it does not say.
From heaven, came from heaven etc mean that Jesus was in heaven before He was conceived in Mary and became a man.

 

[Dimi95]

Speaking of the new birth. Saying Jesus "came from heaven", "came from God", "the Father sent me", etc. does not show any type of preexistence only that Jesus sent from God via a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary. John is also a man sent from God . . . does that mean he preexisted? or that he is God?

Revelation 22
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

 

[Soapy]

You question is inaccurate.
Who is of Heaven , can you answer?


Is Son of Man only physival entity , Human Being?

I believe you have no idea what you are dealing with.

 

[Soapy]

Omg this thread is such a waste of time.

Soapy, honestly, you have had literally a hundred texts quoted to you in support of trinitarian doctrine and you have ignored every one of them instead spitting out unsupported replies without any biblical referencing.

It is pointless debating with someone who is unable to comit themselves to studying biblical cross references.

The simplest answer to your responses is this...and you either take it or find something else to crow about...

Our Saviour, the Messiah took upon Himself the form of a man and died on the cross for HIS own Creation.

Phil 2:5 (cross reference is Isaiah 52)

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, existing in the form of God,

did not consider equality with God

something to be grasped,a

7but emptied Himself,

taking the form of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man,

He humbled Himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.

You are the one who is posting claim that have no validity in truth. You may believe in trinity but what you believe in is just fakery.

 

[Soapy]

Ever wonder why questions put forth like this or in the context of responses are never answered?

Ha ha ha…. No…! I knew he wouldn’t answer - or if he did it would be full of nonsense, as per normal… but it serves to make him think about what he’s saying and how he thinks.

However, I know he really is just joshing. He is just playing a game, having fun with truth seekers, so I don’t take what he says personally. It serves to make me stronger in that [spiritual] muscle is developed by actions against a [devilish] resistance. Of course, I’d rather he didn’t say those ridiculous things but I fear he is believing his own rhetoric… Sad!

 

[amazing grace]

The pre human Jesus is called "The Word" at John 1:1.
All things were brought into existence through the Word (John 1:3) just as the world/universe was made through the Son. (Heb 1:2)
So the Word is the pre human Son of God.

The word - God's word - when God spoke . . . all things were brought into existence . . . with the purpose in mind, for this reason, love, service, obedience - that failed because man sinned against God - therefore when the fulness of time came, God sent his Son, his only begotten So, via a miraculous conception. The world (aion - the age, a period of time, there is a different word for the inhabited world) that was made through the Son is the age after the resurrection. That is scriptural.

 

[amazing grace]

Revelation 22
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Yes, God the Father shares His titles with His Son.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Yes, Jesus is the root and offspring of David therefore he cannot be God.

 

[Sargonski]

The pre human Jesus is called "The Word" at John 1:1.
All things were brought into existence through the Word (John 1:3) just as the world/universe was made through the Son. (Heb 1:2)
So the Word is the pre human Son of God.

The word - God's word - when God spoke . . . all things were brought into existence . . . with the purpose in mind, for this reason, love, service, obedience - that failed because man sinned against God - therefore when the fulness of time came, God sent his Son, his only begotten So, via a miraculous conception. The world (aion - the age, a period of time, there is a different word for the inhabited world) that was made through the Son is the age after the resurrection. That is scriptural.

KK -- Let us discuss one of the most mis-translated verses of the Bible. This one an intentional mistranslation in every English version of John 1 that I am aware of ..

1) the Word "Word" .. is not "Word". The word the author of John used was "Logos"

Now - the term "Logos" can mean word .. but in a religious context means so much more .. more that is not encapsulated by using the word "Word" and the Pun - double meaning .. of which all the audience of the time would have understood .. and that which they understood .. something much different than how todays reader will understand.. because the meaning is left out .. via the pious fraud .. "Sin of Omision"

In a religious context -- as is the case with John 1 -- the Logos is the emissary between Man and God .. which follows in the idea that there are various Aeon's / Eminations from the Godhead .. .. and while this seems at first glance to solve some trinitarian problems .. John's idea became a gnostic heresy 200 years later. as obviously while the Eminiation is part of God . one with God so to speak .. the Aeon itself is not God .. not Co-Equal by any stretch.

but i digress .. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



so 1) the Logos has existed as long as God has .. 2) and the Logos is obviously with God .. and 3) in some sense the Logos is part of God .. and extention of the Godhead .. but not directly God .. so it is God .. but not God.

Now the emination .. call it the Holy Spirit if you like .. or rather the "Logos Emination" as we should distinguish one from others - is the emination by which God's Word "The Truth" .. is Given to Man. Jesus is then a symbolic Representation of that Truth .. "The Word of God" personified - whose purpose is to deliver that Truth - "Gods Word" to humanity.

So while this emination .. and its personification are not God .. they are God's Word .. and are part of God .. and the "Word" itself .. is God .. the Word by which God Creates .. is God .. but these are words different than the Logos .. different eminations .. but the word itself .. as opposed to the personifiction of the word .. is in essence God .. or everything created out of God's word.

So while the Author of John makes Jesus Pre-incarnate .. something not done in the synoptic Gospels - he is not a trinitarian .. does not believe the Logos is God ... the intermediary between man and God is not God .. it can be one with God .. part of God .. and emination from God .. but not God itself ... thus the HS is not God .. nor is the personification of God's word in the form of Jesus .. is a form of God's .. but not God itself.

Whether Jesus himself was divine is a separate question .. but regardless of the nature of this divinity .. according to John1 -- this divinity is not God Most High.. not "The Father" .. not "YHWH" .. nor EL - God of Abraham , nor Ahura Mazda - God of Judaism , nor is Jesus the God of Jesus - A Priest Forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek. Hebrews 6:20 .. just like David Psalm 110 also a High Priest of the Order of Melchi-Zedek.

and with that we have a the Puzzle of the Day .. Who is the God of the Order of Melchi-Zedek" ? Hint - Genesis 14: 18-20 - MelChiZedek is a Canaanite Priest King of Jerusalem .. the Patron God of Jerusalem at that time == Zedek .. twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness .. part of the Divine Council of El -- Psalm 82 ... referred by YHWH as "The Supreme One"

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

 

[Soapy]

Revelation 22
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

‘First and Last’ just means, ‘The only one’.

Try using it in a sentence!!

‘Alpha and Omega’ is the same as ‘First and Last’… it just means ‘The only one’…

Try using it in a sentence!

‘Beginning and End’ also means the same as shown above… ‘The only one’.

These are not ‘Titles’ per se… they are just ‘sayings’, ‘idioms’.

I am posting you the truth but if you choose to ignore it then so be it. I can lead your dehydrated spirit to waters of truth but only you can choose to quench it by drinking it.

 

[Soapy]

KK -- Let us discuss one of the most mis-translated verses of the Bible. This one an intentional mistranslation in every English version of John 1 that I am aware of ..

1) the Word "Word" .. is not "Word". The word the author of John used was "Logos"

Now - the term "Logos" can mean word .. but in a religious context means so much more .. more that is not encapsulated by using the word "Word" and the Pun - double meaning .. of which all the audience of the time would have understood .. and that which they understood .. something much different than how todays reader will understand.. because the meaning is left out .. via the pious fraud .. "Sin of Omision"

In a religious context -- as is the case with John 1 -- the Logos is the emissary between Man and God .. which follows in the idea that there are various Aeon's / Eminations from the Godhead .. .. and while this seems at first glance to solve some trinitarian problems .. John's idea became a gnostic heresy 200 years later. as obviously while the Eminiation is part of God . one with God so to speak .. the Aeon itself is not God .. not Co-Equal by any stretch.

but i digress .. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



so 1) the Logos has existed as long as God has .. 2) and the Logos is obviously with God .. and 3) in some sense the Logos is part of God .. and extention of the Godhead .. but not directly God .. so it is God .. but not God.

Now the emination .. call it the Holy Spirit if you like .. or rather the "Logos Emination" as we should distinguish one from others - is the emination by which God's Word "The Truth" .. is Given to Man. Jesus is then a symbolic Representation of that Truth .. "The Word of God" personified - whose purpose is to deliver that Truth - "Gods Word" to humanity.

So while this emination .. and its personification are not God .. they are God's Word .. and are part of God .. and the "Word" itself .. is God .. the Word by which God Creates .. is God .. but these are words different than the Logos .. different eminations .. but the word itself .. as opposed to the personifiction of the word .. is in essence God .. or everything created out of God's word.

So while the Author of John makes Jesus Pre-incarnate .. something not done in the synoptic Gospels - he is not a trinitarian .. does not believe the Logos is God ... the intermediary between man and God is not God .. it can be one with God .. part of God .. and emination from God .. but not God itself ... thus the HS is not God .. nor is the personification of God's word in the form of Jesus .. is a form of God's .. but not God itself.

Whether Jesus himself was divine is a separate question .. but regardless of the nature of this divinity .. according to John1 -- this divinity is not God Most High.. not "The Father" .. not "YHWH" .. nor EL - God of Abraham , nor Ahura Mazda - God of Judaism , nor is Jesus the God of Jesus - A Priest Forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek. Hebrews 6:20 .. just like David Psalm 110 also a High Priest of the Order of Melchi-Zedek.

and with that we have a the Puzzle of the Day .. Who is the God of the Order of Melchi-Zedek" ? Hint - Genesis 14: 18-20 - MelChiZedek is a Canaanite Priest King of Jerusalem .. the Patron God of Jerusalem at that time == Zedek .. twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness .. part of the Divine Council of El -- Psalm 82 ... referred by YHWH as "The Supreme One"

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

• “so 1) the Logos has existed as long as God has .. 2) and the Logos is obviously with God .. and 3) in some sense the Logos is part of God .. and extention of the Godhead .. but not directly God .. so it is God .. but not God.”

I’m not sure - but I am sure… that you didn’t think out the bolded part above…

A hand is part of a human body… but it isn’t the body of a human…

The logos is part of God… but if us not God!

 

[amazing grace]

The exhortation is to be humble with those who are your equal.
Phil 2 tells us that Jesus was equal to God and gave up that equality to become a servant, a man,,,,,,,,,,,,, lower than the angels.
If Jesus was not equal to God then it was a silly example to use.
Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Hebrews 1:1-4 tells us of the equality of the Son to God in important things.
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Equality with God because God has spoken to us through his Son? this clearly differentiates the Son from God.
Equality with God because God appointed him heir of all things? God already owns all things and therefore cannot be an "heir" to what He already owns.
Equality with God because Jesus radiates the glory of God and is the exact imprint (copy) of His nature? this also clearly differentiates the Son from God - an imprint is not the original.
Equality with God because Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God, being made superior to the angels? Clearly differentiates the Son from God for God has always been superior to the angels.

Hebrews 1:4 also tells us that He inherited a name from His Father, and that name has to be the Father's name, YHWH.
This is the name that is above all names, so it is YHWH. And He was given that name so that at the name of Jesus, YHWH, everyone will worship Him and confess that He is the Lord.

Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We are to confess Jesus as Lord now because there is no other name under heaven by which we are saved.
At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God. Again, clearly differentiating Jesus from God.

Interestingly Jesus at John 16:15 tells us that everything that the Father has belongs to Him (Jesus). That means that He was YHWH even while He was walking the earth, and when He was making the heavens with His hands He was YHWH then also. YHWH made the heavens and earth alone, and YHWH is not just the Father but is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we know that the Holy Spirit is also YHWH because the Lord is the Spirit (2Cor 3:17)
There are also other verses that show that the Son is YHWH and that the Holy Spirit is YHWH, but none of this even matters if you can't see that Jesus actually meant that He was in heaven with His Father before the world existed.

And John 3:35 Jesus said that his Father, who is also his God, loves him and has given all things into his hands therefore everything that the Father has belongs to the Son, Jesus. . . clearly differentiates Jesus from Yahweh.
We know that the Holy Spirit is God for God is Holy and God is Spirit - then in Acts 5:3,4 it says concerning Ananias and Sapphira - "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit . . . You have not lied to men but to God." - clearly relating the Holy Spirit to God.
As for 2 Cor. 3:17, the Lord is the Spirit - doesn't say "Holy Spirit" but Spirit and in the NT, Jesus is sometimes called "the Spirit" because of his new resurrected body.
I can't "see" what is not there.

John 17: 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

Jesus was praying that the glory the Old Testament foretold he would have, and which had been in the mind of God the Father since before the world began, would come into concretion - he did not literally preexist. The church, the body of believers were foreknown (Romans 8:29) but we did not literally exist, Jesus's crucifixion and death was foreknown (Acts), i.e. in the plan, in the mind of God.
In 2 Timothy 1:9 where it says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began”, no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Most know that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and he prayed that it will come into manifestation.

John 6:50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”

Yes, Jesus is the living bread of life that came down from heaven - Jesus is the living bread of life "the Father (God) sent him", "he came from God" and scripture tells us how the Father (God) sent him and how he came from God.

Mark 10:45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

Yes, Jesus came to serve in all humility, and he gave his life as a ransom for many - God is immortal and cannot die.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Yes, again, the Father (God) sent him, he came from God and always did the will of God his Father.

John 8:58,59 ".......before Abraham was I am

You misunderstand this just as the unbelieving Jews at the time misunderstood him. When Jesus said "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad" - the Jews clearly think that Jesus had seen Abraham which is why they question his age. Jesus was answering the previous question presented "Are you greater than Abraham? Whom do you make yourself out to be?" Jesus answered - I am (he) meaning he was the prophesied Messiah; the guaranteed promise made to Abraham and his descendants in Gen. 17:6 - I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you - which would involve the Messiah. (Gal. 3:8,14, 16)

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh,
Notice that God sent His Son, not beget a Son. He Son was sent to become a man.
And really the verses that tell us that, go on and on and they are plain verses.
You twist what is plain and make it mean what it does not say.
From heaven, came from heaven etc mean that Jesus was in heaven before He was conceived in Mary and became a man.

Yes, God sent his Son, Jesus was sent by the Father (God) yet John 3:16 tells us he was "begotten" and Matt. and Luke tell of the conception and birth of this Son which is how God sent his Son. Jesus did not literally preexist but he preexisted in God's foreknowledge and when the fulness of time came - He sent forth his Son, born of a woman. (Gal. 4:4)

 

[Sargonski]

• “so 1) the Logos has existed as long as God has .. 2) and the Logos is obviously with God .. and 3) in some sense the Logos is part of God .. and extention of the Godhead .. but not directly God .. so it is God .. but not God.”

I’m not sure - but I am sure… that you didn’t think out the bolded part above…

A hand is part of a human body… but it isn’t the body of a human…

The logos is part of God… but if us not God!

Your hand is part of a human .. but your hand is not a Human. Just as a small part or extension of God .. is not God.

We can say about the hand -- "its a human hand" .. its Human right . .. but this does not mean your hand is a human... the distinction being the difference between a noun and descriptive adjective.

The Logos is Godly .. but it is not God is another way to put it .. The Logos is a representation of God .. "God's Word" .. the Logos is an extention out from the Godhead and in this sense a part of God .. or a representation of God's action .. and in this sense it is God Acting .. but the Logos is not God.

There is alot going on in this passage in terms of defining the divinity of Jesus .. and to understand what the Author is saying .. one needs to understand some platonic philosphy .. in particular the Logos Concept .. the author engaging in allusion and symbolism and the play on words between "The Logos" and "The Word" .. and while the Logos is symbolicly "the Word of God" .. the Logos is more than just "the Word of God" .. The Word of God is not "The Logos" .. while at the same time The Logos is "The word of God" personified.

The mission of Jesus - According to the Author of John" was the Logos -- the emissary between man and God - the physical representation of "The Truth" "I am the Truth - The Way - The light" says Jesus ... sent out from God . and sent by God to deliver God's message ... but Jesus is not God .. "The Father" "Most High" "Supreme One"

Creed has the Spirit Proceeding from the Father through which Jesus spoke God's word directly .. and at the same time "Was" Gods Word" "I am the Truth" = "I am Gods Word" ... and John 1 says - "The Logos (word) was God"

So this is a play on the term Logos and word -- while the term Logos can mean word or words .. in a religious context it means something different .. it means the emissary between man and God .. by which man can know "the Truth" .. "God's Word" .. so the logos is symbolicly "God's Word" .. but it is also the active tranfer agent of that word from God to man ...so the Word on its own is not the Logos .. but the Logos can be viewed as God's word.

 

[Dimi95]

I believe you have no idea what you are dealing with.

And i don't care what you say

 

[Dimi95]

Yes, God the Father shares His titles with His Son.

John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

Yes, Jesus is the root and offspring of David therefore he cannot be God.

By whose standards?