Jesus - First Born?

[Dimi95]

‘First and Last’ just means, ‘The only one’.

Try using it in a sentence!!

‘Alpha and Omega’ is the same as ‘First and Last’… it just means ‘The only one’…

Try using it in a sentence!

‘Beginning and End’ also means the same as shown above… ‘The only one’.

These are not ‘Titles’ per se… they are just ‘sayings’, ‘idioms’.

I am posting you the truth but if you choose to ignore it then so be it. I can lead your dehydrated spirit to waters of truth but only you can choose to quench it by drinking it.

James 1:22
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

 

[Brian2]

The word - God's word - when God spoke . . . all things were brought into existence . . . with the purpose in mind, for this reason, love, service, obedience - that failed because man sinned against God - therefore when the fulness of time came, God sent his Son, his only begotten So, via a miraculous conception. The world (aion - the age, a period of time, there is a different word for the inhabited world) that was made through the Son is the age after the resurrection. That is scriptural.

We know that God made the world/universe through His Son (Hebrews 1:2) and that in plain language this has to mean the world/universe that was made in the beginning.
Where does scripture tell us that the world that was made through the Son is the age after the resurrection and where does it tell us that it was not the one that will perish.
(well we know that the Son's hands did make the world that will perish because that is what Heb 1:10-12 tells us)

 

[Brian2]

So while the Author of John makes Jesus Pre-incarnate .. something not done in the synoptic Gospels - he is not a trinitarian .. does not believe the Logos is God ... the intermediary between man and God is not God .. it can be one with God .. part of God .. and emination from God .. but not God itself ... thus the HS is not God .. nor is the personification of God's word in the form of Jesus .. is a form of God's .. but not God itself.

If the intermediary between man and God is not God then He also is not a man.

Whether Jesus himself was divine is a separate question .. but regardless of the nature of this divinity .. according to John1 -- this divinity is not God Most High.. not "The Father" .. not "YHWH" .. nor EL - God of Abraham , nor Ahura Mazda - God of Judaism , nor is Jesus the God of Jesus - A Priest Forever in the Order of Melchi-Zedek. Hebrews 6:20 .. just like David Psalm 110 also a High Priest of the Order of Melchi-Zedek.

and with that we have a the Puzzle of the Day .. Who is the God of the Order of Melchi-Zedek" ? Hint - Genesis 14: 18-20 - MelChiZedek is a Canaanite Priest King of Jerusalem .. the Patron God of Jerusalem at that time == Zedek .. twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness .. part of the Divine Council of El -- Psalm 82 ... referred by YHWH as "The Supreme One"

True, Jesus is not His Father.
You got around to your favourite topic (Zedek) from a post that wanted to discuss the translation of John 1:1.
Nice move.

 

[Sargonski]

If the intermediary between man and God is not God then He also is not a man.



True, Jesus is not His Father.
You got around to your favourite topic (Zedek) from a post that wanted to discuss the translation of John 1:1.
Nice move.

Zedek is criticlly importand to understanding the nature of Christs divinity ... and hello Brother Brian so kind of you to join in.
Now to your proposition "If A not God" then "A not Man" - A = the Logos - conduit/intermediary between man and God

I don't see the proposition as being true -- except in the case where Man is God .. so I would give this one a "mostly false" .. because if A isn't God .. this means A Could be anything .. the Set of which includes Men who are not Gods ..

The only way your proposition is true is if Man is God -- and not just any God .. but one you have defined.

Why Zedek is important because this is one of the few instances where the nature of Christs Divinity is discussed in the NT .. for in Hebrew 6 we learn that Christ Jesus .. our LORD and savior .. Is a Priest of the Order of MelChi-Zedek ..

This tid bit is critically important in establishing the nature of Christs divinity.. as we have at Least 3 other Priests of this Holy Order in the OT .. this fact begging .. begging the question Brother B .. do we put Jesus on the same level as these other Priests of the Order Zedek ?

The other question then is .. who is the God of the Order Zedek ?

 

[Brian2]

Equality with God because God has spoken to us through his Son? this clearly differentiates the Son from God.

I could point out more than 100 places like that where the Father (the only true God) and Son are seen as distinct.
I can also point out that the Father and Son are one and that they both are called YHWH, and that the Father and Son are always together in what they do because the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

Equality with God because God appointed him heir of all things? God already owns all things and therefore cannot be an "heir" to what He already owns.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

It looks like God inherits The kingdom of the world.

Psalm 82: 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

The Lord said to me, b“You are my Son;

today I have begotten you.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,
and the ends of the earth your possession.

Equality with God because Jesus radiates the glory of God and is the exact imprint (copy) of His nature? this also clearly differentiates the Son from God - an imprint is not the original.

Isa 46: 5 To whom will you liken Me or count Me equal? To whom will you compare Me, that we should be alike?
Yes Hebrews 1 does compare the Son to His Father and make them alike, as does Phil 2.
And yes, of course the imprint is not the original, just as the Son is not His Father.
But they are both YHWH because there is none like YHWH.

Equality with God because Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God, being made superior to the angels? Clearly differentiates the Son from God for God has always been superior to the angels.

The Father did not become a human, lower than the angels.
The name the Son inherited is the name above all names. (YHWH) (Heb 1:4, Phil 2:9)
Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, YHWH is one.
Zech 14:9 And YHWH will be king over all the earth. On that day YHWH will be one and his name one.
Dan 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language served him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

We are to confess Jesus as Lord now because there is no other name under heaven by which we are saved.
At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, in heaven and on earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God. Again, clearly differentiating Jesus from God.

To the glory of the Father. The Son inherits His Fathers name (after putting aside His equality to God and becoming the only begotten Son as a man and a servant) and in a sense His Father is declaring His Son's Godship to all and everyone worshipping His Son actually glorifies the Father who is in the Son.

And John 3:35 Jesus said that his Father, who is also his God, loves him and has given all things into his hands therefore everything that the Father has belongs to the Son, Jesus. . . clearly differentiates Jesus from Yahweh.
We know that the Holy Spirit is God for God is Holy and God is Spirit - then in Acts 5:3,4 it says concerning Ananias and Sapphira - "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit . . . You have not lied to men but to God." - clearly relating the Holy Spirit to God.
As for 2 Cor. 3:17, the Lord is the Spirit - doesn't say "Holy Spirit" but Spirit and in the NT, Jesus is sometimes called "the Spirit" because of his new resurrected body.

Where in the New Testament is Jesus "sometimes" called "the Spirit" because of his new resurrected body?
Eph 4: 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;…
And I better tell you again that the Son became a man and so as a man He has a God, His Father. It is when He became a man that His Father became His God.
Psalm 22:10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus was praying that the glory the Old Testament foretold he would have, and which had been in the mind of God the Father since before the world began, would come into concretion - he did not literally preexist. The church, the body of believers were foreknown (Romans 8:29) but we did not literally exist, Jesus's crucifixion and death was foreknown (Acts), i.e. in the plan, in the mind of God.
In 2 Timothy 1:9 where it says that each Christian was given grace “before the ages began”, no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Most know that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and he prayed that it will come into manifestation.

John 17: 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
No He did not pray that the glory God had imagined in the past would be manifested, He prayed that He would be glorified in God's presence with the glory that He had in God's presence before the world existed.

Yes, Jesus is the living bread of life that came down from heaven - Jesus is the living bread of life "the Father (God) sent him", "he came from God" and scripture tells us how the Father (God) sent him and how he came from God.

John 6:50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”
Yes Jesus came from God as John 8:42 tells us, but in John 6:50-51 Jesus says that He came from heaven.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

Yes, Jesus came to serve in all humility, and he gave his life as a ransom for many - God is immortal and cannot die.

The Father cannot die and did not die but the Son, who became a man, died, and when He died His soul did not die,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so Jesus died just as any human dies.
Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, again, the Father (God) sent him, he came from God and always did the will of God his Father.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
You will have to get your glasses checked. It says He came down from heaven.

You misunderstand this just as the unbelieving Jews at the time misunderstood him. When Jesus said "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad" - the Jews clearly think that Jesus had seen Abraham which is why they question his age. Jesus was answering the previous question presented "Are you greater than Abraham? Whom do you make yourself out to be?" Jesus answered - I am (he) meaning he was the prophesied Messiah; the guaranteed promise made to Abraham and his descendants in Gen. 17:6 - I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you - which would involve the Messiah. (Gal. 3:8,14, 16)

Jesus answered how old He was and who He was with the one remark. "Before Abraham was I am."
They knew whom He was claiming to be and how old He was saying He was and thy picked up stones to kill Him.

Yes, God sent his Son, Jesus was sent by the Father (God) yet John 3:16 tells us he was "begotten" and Matt. and Luke tell of the conception and birth of this Son which is how God sent his Son. Jesus did not literally preexist but he preexisted in God's foreknowledge and when the fulness of time came - He sent forth his Son, born of a woman. (Gal. 4:4)

I know what you are claiming and I know that no passages in the Bible support it, that Jesus did not pre exist in heaven with God.
You have to make up the idea that He only existed in God's foreknowledge so that you can deny the plain passages that tell us He was in heaven and came from heaven and even decided to come from heaven and become a servant.

 

[amazing grace]

We know that God made the world/universe through His Son (Hebrews 1:2) and that in plain language this has to mean the world/universe that was made in the beginning.
Where does scripture tell us that the world that was made through the Son is the age after the resurrection and where does it tell us that it was not the one that will perish.
(well we know that the Son's hands did make the world that will perish because that is what Heb 1:10-12 tells us)

If you believe that Jesus had a hand in creation in the beginning, then it would mean God spoke through his Son in the beginning which would be before "in these last days". aion can mean "world/universe" but can also mean a period of time, age and Hebrews 1:2 does not use the language - "in the beginning". And I still believe that Heb. 1:10-12 parallels with Hebrews 2 - the world to come of which we are speaking. Hebrews 2 is a continuation of Heb. 1 - we understand this because the use of the word "therefore" in Hebrews 2:1 showing a continuation of what was said before.

We have to agree to disagree instead of continuing to repeat ourselves.

 

[Soapy]

James 1:22
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

Then ‘DO AS I[t] SAID’…

I asked you to wrote sentences using the idioms ‘First and Last’, ‘Beginning and End’, and ‘Alpha and Omega’.

Do it… Do it… Do it…

When you Do It then you will See It…

 

[amazing grace]

I could point out more than 100 places like that where the Father (the only true God) and Son are seen as distinct.
I can also point out that the Father and Son are one and that they both are called YHWH, and that the Father and Son are always together in what they do because the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

Probably more places than that because a Father truly is distinct and separate from their son, children.
Yes, the Father and the Son are one and the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father and we also who believe are one with them - "I do not ask for these only, but that they may all be one, just as you Father are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. . . . I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one. . . "

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

It looks like God inherits The kingdom of the world.

Psalm 82: 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

The Lord said to me, b“You are my Son;

today I have begotten you.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,
and the ends of the earth your possession.

Yes, the kingdom will be God's and His Christ. "Then comes the end, when he (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. . . . that God may be all in all." [1 Cor. 15:24-28]
You do not inherit what you already own.

Isa 46: 5 To whom will you liken Me or count Me equal? To whom will you compare Me, that we should be alike?
Yes Hebrews 1 does compare the Son to His Father and make them alike, as does Phil 2.
And yes, of course the imprint is not the original, just as the Son is not His Father.
But they are both YHWH because there is none like YHWH.

What is the context of Isaiah 46? False God's and idols - none of which can compare to the one true God the Father - the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

It looks like God inherits The kingdom of the world.

Psalm 82: 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

The Lord said to me, b“You are my Son;

today I have begotten you.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,
and the ends of the earth your possession.

Yes, the kingdom will be God's and His Christ. Jesus delivers the kingdom to God the Father that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15)
You do not inherit what you already own.

Isa 46: 5 To whom will you liken Me or count Me equal? To whom will you compare Me, that we should be alike?
Yes Hebrews 1 does compare the Son to His Father and make them alike, as does Phil 2.
And yes, of course the imprint is not the original, just as the Son is not His Father.
But they are both YHWH because there is none like YHWH.

What is the context of Isaiah 46? False God's and idols - none of which can compare to the one true God the Father - the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Both Yahweh? - both implies "two". So do we have two Yahwehs?

The Father did not become a human, lower than the angels.
The name the Son inherited is the name above all names. (YHWH) (Heb 1:4, Phil 2:9)
Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our God, YHWH is one.
Zech 14:9 And YHWH will be king over all the earth. On that day YHWH will be one and his name one.
Dan 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language served him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

When Jesus was exalted he became much more superior to the angels and he inherited a name more excellent than the angels. Does that say that Jesus inherited the name of Yahweh? God has always been more excellent than the angels.
Yes, Yahweh is ONE which Jesus confirmed when he quoted Deut 6:4 at Mark 12:29.
Zech. 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem. . . (Rev. 21:2; 22:1). . .9) And Yahweh will be king over all the earth. On that day Yahweh will be one and his name one. Again - 1 Cor. 15:24-28
Daniel 7:13 The Son of man (Jesus) approached the Ancient of Days (Yahweh) and was led into his presence. He (the son of man, Jesus) was GIVEN authority, glory and sovereign power, etc. . . (Rev. 5:2, 6-10, 12, 13, etc.)

To the glory of the Father. The Son inherits His Fathers name (after putting aside His equality to God and becoming the only begotten Son as a man and a servant) and in a sense His Father is declaring His Son's Godship to all and everyone worshipping His Son actually glorifies the Father who is in the Son.

I don't believe that doing something "to the glory of God" means what you are saying.

Where in the New Testament is Jesus "sometimes" called "the Spirit" because of his new resurrected body?
Eph 4: 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;…
And I better tell you again that the Son became a man and so as a man He has a God, His Father. It is when He became a man that His Father became His God.
Psalm 22:10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

1 Cor. 15:45 says that Jesus became a life-giving spirit; (different translations: was made a quickening spirit; is a (the) life giving spirit) when he was resurrected and Jesus refers to himself as "the Spirit" many times in the book of Revelation (2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22)
Jesus did not "become" a man. He was born a man, a human being, a REAL LIFE MAN. He was miraculously conceived in the womb of Mary by the power of the Most High, God being his Father and his God.

 

[amazing grace]

John 17: 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
No He did not pray that the glory God had imagined in the past would be manifested, He prayed that He would be glorified in God's presence with the glory that He had in God's presence before the world existed.

This is another example of things said in the past which had not happened: Abraham - "for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. . . " Gen. 17:5 and it is further explained in Romans, speaking of Abraham's faith - Rom. 4:17 "as it is written "I have made you the father of many nations" --- in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. . . . 21) fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised." Things spoken of in the past tense because it would certainly happen; the prophetic perfect past tense is used throughout scripture.

The man, Christ Jesus knew the hour had come to receive the glory promised him and that glory was connected to his death, resurrection and exaltation. The man, Christ Jesus said this prayer; the man, Christ Jesus had faith that God would raise him from the dead and give him the glory promised to him. Jesus said in Luke 24 to the two on the road to Emmaus: "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory? And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

In the same vein - Jesus prayed for believers who did not even exist yet - "The glory that you have given me, I have given to them . . ." (17:22)
Do you have that glory, have you been glorified yet? Spoken in the past tense because WE WILL receive glory.

John 6:50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”
Yes Jesus came from God as John 8:42 tells us, but in John 6:50-51 Jesus says that He came from heaven.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

It's the same thing, the same premise - came down from heaven, came from God, God sent me, etc. . . . all synonymous terms.

The Father cannot die and did not die but the Son, who became a man, died, and when He died His soul did not die,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so Jesus died just as any human dies.
Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus died - fully died - and was DEAD, i.e. NOT ALIVE for three days and three nights just as anyone who dies and awaits the resurrection. I will not go over Matt. 10:28 with you again -

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
You will have to get your glasses checked. It says He came down from heaven.

The one who is sent is not the same as the sender. If I send someone to the store - it means I didn't go to the store.
. . . . came down from heaven, came from God, God sent me, etc. . . . all synonymous terms.

Jesus answered how old He was and who He was with the one remark. "Before Abraham was I am."
They knew whom He was claiming to be and how old He was saying He was and thy picked up stones to kill Him.

Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be? . . . Abraham rejoiced to see my day . . he saw it and was glad. . . . Did Jesus say he saw Abraham? Yet that is what they understood him to say - "You are not yet 50 years old, and have you seen Abraham?" In response to this whole context, Jesus said: before Abraham was, I am (he). He was greater than Abraham . . . they picked up stones to throw at him because he claimed to be greater than their father, Abraham - it was an insult to them. He was not claiming to be God.

I know what you are claiming and I know that no passages in the Bible support it, that Jesus did not pre exist in heaven with God.
You have to make up the idea that He only existed in God's foreknowledge so that you can deny the plain passages that tell us He was in heaven and came from heaven and even decided to come from heaven and become a servant.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in God. 1 Peter 1:19-21

Everything in scripture takes place because it was God's plan and was predestined to take place . . . they lifted their voices together to God . . . for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Jesus did not preexist as a "pre human". Jesus came into being by a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary by the power of the Most High - Mary gave birth to a human child, a Son whom they called Jesus. A Son who grew in wisdom and stature. A Son who always did the will of Him who sent him via that birth - a Son who was obedient to the point of death. That is what I am claiming.

 

[Soapy]

“Everything in scripture takes place because it was God's plan and was predestined to take place . . . they lifted their voices together to God . . . for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Jesus did not preexist as a "pre human". Jesus came into being by a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary by the power of the Most High - Mary gave birth to a human child, a Son whom they called Jesus. A Son who grew in wisdom and stature. A Son who always did the will of Him who sent him [via that birth]* - a Son who was obedient to the point of death. That is what I am claiming.”

*Correct apart from this.

Jesus was ‘SENT’ after he was anointed by God, and then tested in the wilderness. Take note of what Jesus said to the people in the synagogue AFTER his anointing and testing:

• “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to declare the year of the Lord…” (Luke 4:18-19)
• “He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:21)

Jesus was 30 years old when he was ANOINTED, TESTED, and then SENT… by God to proclaimed the good news to the poor.. etc.:

• ‘But [Jesus] said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.”’ (Luke 4:43)

 

[amazing grace]

“Everything in scripture takes place because it was God's plan and was predestined to take place . . . they lifted their voices together to God . . . for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. Jesus did not preexist as a "pre human". Jesus came into being by a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary by the power of the Most High - Mary gave birth to a human child, a Son whom they called Jesus. A Son who grew in wisdom and stature. A Son who always did the will of Him who sent him [via that birth]* - a Son who was obedient to the point of death. That is what I am claiming.”

*Correct apart from this.

Jesus was ‘SENT’ after he was anointed by God, and then tested in the wilderness. Take note of what Jesus said to the people in the synagogue AFTER his anointing and testing:

• “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to declare the year of the Lord…” (Luke 4:18-19)
• “He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:21)

Jesus was 30 years old when he was ANOINTED, TESTED, and then SENT… by God to proclaimed the good news to the poor.. etc.:

• ‘But [Jesus] said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.”’ (Luke 4:43)

A Son who always did the will of Him who sent him [via that birth]* - Not sure what was in error in what I said, and I agree that Jesus was sent for a purpose. Is it just over the word "sent"? Would it have been better to say: A Son who always did the will of Him from whom he came via birth? Regardless of the "God sent him via that birth", he came down from heaven, he came from God - to me, all synonymous terms.

 

[Soapy]

A Son who always did the will of Him who sent him [via that birth]* - Not sure what was in error in what I said, and I agree that Jesus was sent for a purpose. Is it just over the word "sent"? Would it have been better to say: A Son who always did the will of Him from whom he came via birth? Regardless of the "God sent him via that birth", he came down from heaven, he came from God - to me, all synonymous terms.

The error is both ‘from birth’ and now ‘came from Heaven’.

Jesus’ SENDING was as I pointed out. Jesus wasn’t SENT until AFTER he was anointed -Jesus even said it himself!!

• “…[God] has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to declare the year of the Lord…” (Luke 4:19)

I don’t think you are joining the dots because you are trying to justify and retain a preconceived idea that Jesus was somehow ‘pre-existent’ even if you don’t use that exact phraseology.

You are saying Jesus ‘Was in Heaven’ and that God somehow ‘SENT him down to earth’. But you forget that ‘GOD WAS ALONE’ until he created the Angels. So, in effect, or if you are a JW, you are claiming that Jesus WAS AN ANGEL…! Are you saying that?

Be it known, it is just twisting the tenet truth towards tenuous Trinitarian tediousness. Be careful that you don’t stray from the tenet towards something of your own thinking!

For instance, the verse where Jesus is supposed to have said:

• ‘No one has ever gone up to heaven except he that first came down from heaven - the Son of Man!’

Do you not understand that ‘Jesus’ is claiming that ‘The Son of Man’ (a human Being) was a resident of heaven!!! Moreover, the true verse is really actually saying:

• ‘No one has ever ascended into Heaven except he that first DESCEND [into the grave] - the Son of Man!’

See, the Trinitarians saw the original verse and knew that it was an opportunity to claim Jesus ‘coming from heaven’. But, as usual, they did a very rushed job since changing too many words would be far easier to detect as false. Jesus was saying that no one can enter Heaven UNLESS THEY FIRST DIE (descent into the grave) … now you know this to be true as this was corroborated by the talk Jesus had with Nicodemus. And also Jesus is ‘the seed’ that must die before it can germinate and create new life. Jesus MUST FIRST DIE and be REBORN before he can ASCEND INTO HEAVEN. The trinitarian translators ADDED the words ‘down from heaven’ but forgot that Jesus was speaking of himself, a human Being!!

 

[amazing grace]

The error is both ‘from birth’ and now ‘came from Heaven’.

Jesus’ SENDING was as I pointed out. Jesus wasn’t SENT until AFTER he was anointed -Jesus even said it himself!!

• “…[God] has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to declare the year of the Lord…” (Luke 4:19)

I don’t think you are joining the dots because you are trying to justify and retain a preconceived idea that Jesus was somehow ‘pre-existent’ even if you don’t use that exact phraseology.

You are saying Jesus ‘Was in Heaven’ and that God somehow ‘SENT him down to earth’. But you forget that ‘GOD WAS ALONE’ until he created the Angels. So, in effect, or if you are a JW, you are claiming that Jesus WAS AN ANGEL…! Are you saying that?

No, I am not saying that Jesus literally preexisted in heaven - I do not believe that.
To me, the phrase "came from heaven" is the same as "came from God, was sent by God". Jesus came into existence through a miraculous conception "behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus." . . by the power of the Most High, i.e. came from God, sent by God, came from heaven. Born of a woman - "when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman . . ."
In everything I have posted previously - I would have hoped that my stance that Jesus was fully human would have been clear - but I guess not!

Be it known, it is just twisting the tenet truth towards tenuous Trinitarian tediousness. Be careful that you don’t stray from the tenet towards something of your own thinking!

For instance, the verse where Jesus is supposed to have said:

• ‘No one has ever gone up to heaven except he that first came down from heaven - the Son of Man!’

Do you not understand that ‘Jesus’ is claiming that ‘The Son of Man’ (a human Being) was a resident of heaven!!! Moreover, the true verse is really actually saying:

• ‘No one has ever ascended into Heaven except he that first DESCEND [into the grave] - the Son of Man!’

See, the Trinitarians saw the original verse and knew that it was an opportunity to claim Jesus ‘coming from heaven’. But, as usual, they did a very rushed job since changing too many words would be far easier to detect as false. Jesus was saying that no one can enter Heaven UNLESS THEY FIRST DIE (descent into the grave) … now you know this to be true as this was corroborated by the talk Jesus had with Nicodemus. And also Jesus is ‘the seed’ that must die before it can germinate and create new life. Jesus MUST FIRST DIE and be REBORN before he can ASCEND INTO HEAVEN. The trinitarian translators ADDED the words ‘down from heaven’ but forgot that Jesus was speaking of himself, a human Being!!

I understand what you are saying above and since I am not a Trinitarian or JW - I agree that Jesus was a man, a real human being.

 

[Soapy]

No, I am not saying that Jesus literally preexisted in heaven - I do not believe that.
To me, the phrase "came from heaven" is the same as "came from God, was sent by God".

I agree that “Came from God” and “Was sent by God” are indeed the same phrase. But “Came from Heaven” (even if YOU believe what you think it means) is a very dangerous claim as it pursues a trinitarian ideology. It would help your (and that of truth) if your were to refrain from using it as others will be confused as to your meaning and imagine you to be believing in a ‘pre-existent Jesus’: “if he ‘came from heaven’ then he must have been existing in heaven”!!

Jesus came into existence through a miraculous conception "behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus." . . by the power of the Most High,

Yes, Jesus came into existence through the miraculous conception … He was born sinless, righteous, and Holy since his body (the egg of the virgin) was ENLIVENED not by the spirit of the sperm of a man but by the LIVING HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD just as the FIRST man, Adam, had his body ENLIVENED by the Holy Spirit of God; Hence Jesus is called, “The SECOND ADAM”: ‘The second Sinless, Holy, Righteous MAN’. AND… because no other ADAM would ever be created Jesus is also THE LAST ADAM!!!

i.e. came from God, sent by God, came from heaven. Born of a woman - "when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman . . ."

‘The fullness of time’ does not necessarily mean ‘the time from his birth’ but more realistically be ‘From the time of his anointing and testing in the wilderness’. Remember the verse saying ‘God spoke through his Son’… It was 30 years after he was born before jesus spoke to anyone publicly with the words of God.

‘Born of a woman’ simply means that he was a human Being.

In everything I have posted previously - I would have hoped that my stance that Jesus was fully human would have been clear - but I guess not!

I’ve followed your posts and see that you are posting good stuff but you veer from the truth at certain points and this has led to your detractors, and detractors of the truth, claiming things against you and the truth because of it. Though anyone can make false claims against any truth, when a person errs in the truth it feeds the detractors for next time especially if they can prove you were wrong or if you accidentally agree with a falsehood of theirs.

I understand what you are saying above and since I am not a Trinitarian or JW - I agree that Jesus was a man, a real human being.

Thank you for confessing your agreement at least that Jesus was a human Being (I’m not sure why your need for ‘real’ since there are no other types of human Beings, in that sense)

 

[amazing grace]

I agree that “Came from God” and “Was sent by God” are indeed the same phrase. But “Came from Heaven” (even if YOU believe what you think it means) is a very dangerous claim as it pursues a trinitarian ideology. It would help your (and that of truth) if your were to refrain from using it as others will be confused as to your meaning and imagine you to be believing in a ‘pre-existent Jesus’: “if he ‘came from heaven’ then he must have been existing in heaven”!!

My thinking is this - where is God? In heaven. Therefore "came from heaven" also means "came from God" and "was sent by God". It's really simple.
Trinitarians can take it to mean whatever they think it to mean - they will and do anyway.

Yes, Jesus came into existence through the miraculous conception … He was born sinless, righteous, and Holy since his body (the egg of the virgin) was ENLIVENED not by the spirit of the sperm of a man but by the LIVING HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD just as the FIRST man, Adam, had his body ENLIVENED by the Holy Spirit of God; Hence Jesus is called, “The SECOND ADAM”: ‘The second Sinless, Holy, Righteous MAN’. AND… because no other ADAM would ever be created Jesus is also THE LAST ADAM!!!

I understand that Jesus was miraculously created in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit - the power of the Most High.

‘The fullness of time’ does not necessarily mean ‘the time from his birth’ but more realistically be ‘From the time of his anointing and testing in the wilderness’. Remember the verse saying ‘God spoke through his Son’… It was 30 years after he was born before jesus spoke to anyone publicly with the words of God.

‘Born of a woman’ simply means that he was a human Being.

"In the fullness of time" - when the time had come God sent his only Son, born of a woman. Yes, he was a human being.

I’ve followed your posts and see that you are posting good stuff but you veer from the truth at certain points and this has led to your detractors, and detractors of the truth, claiming things against you and the truth because of it. Though anyone can make false claims against any truth, when a person errs in the truth it feeds the detractors for next time especially if they can prove you were wrong or if you accidentally agree with a falsehood of theirs.

Thank you for confessing your agreement at least that Jesus was a human Being (I’m not sure why your need for ‘real’ since there are no other types of human Beings, in that sense).

I have never veered from the truth.

As I said I can do nothing about the Trinitarian and what they believe - they have believed error for centuries - and they will continue in the doctrine that they are so steeped in. I haven't seen anybody prove that I have been wrong in what I have said.

By "real", I mean fully human, a real life flesh and blood human being and I say that because Trinitarians also believe and say that Jesus was a man but they do not, in actuality, see him as a man but see him as God in the flesh, a god man, 100% God and 100% man, etc.

 

[Soapy]

My thinking is this - where is God? In heaven. Therefore "came from heaven" also means "came from God" and "was sent by God". It's really simple.
Trinitarians can take it to mean whatever they think it to mean - they will and do anyway.

The problem is that LANGUAGE MATTERS. You might think that ‘Came from Heaven’ means ‘Came from God… was sent by God’ but that ‘Came from Heaven’ ALSO UPHOLDS the Trinitarian mindset. So if an ambiguous ‘claim’ also means similar claim THEN USE the similar claim … that’s what I’m showing you. Your point in posts regarding such claims will then not be subject to ambiguous interpretations. Notice that the translators (who were trinitarian) wrote, ‘CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN’… how do you defend yourself against that if you write, ‘Came from Heaven’… what is the difference to the those who read and hear what you are saying; you might understand what you mean but those hearing you will not understand what you MEANT TO BE SAYING… guess what? Just as I did when I said that you sounded like you were supporting a pre-existent Jesus since if he CAME [Down] FROM then he must have existed IN HEAVEN before being SENT…

You must be able to now see that both parts are wrong since Jesus was SENT only AFTER he was anointed and tested in the wilderness which goes with the verses I showed you in which Jesus told the people the same in the synagogue. Read also, Acts 10:37-38 where an apostles tells of God anointing Jesus with Holy Spirit and power AND his jesus THEN went about healing the sick …and preaching the words of God.

"In the fullness of time" - when the time had come God sent his only Son, born of a woman. Yes, he was a human being.

‘When the time had come…’, 30 years after Jesus was born, the spirit of God led Jesus to seek out John the Baptist so that God could anoint Jesus for the task he would be sent on!!

I have never veered from the truth.

You have never KNOWINGLY veered from the truth…!!

As I said I can do nothing about the Trinitarian and what they believe - they have believed error for centuries - and they will continue in the doctrine that they are so steeped in. I haven't seen anybody prove that I have been wrong in what I have said.

You CAN show the trinitarian the truth - some of them have never seen the truth because they were indoctrinated as their first belief. Showing them the truth could make them think and therefore are no longer ignorant of the truth. And it amazes me that you say no one proved that anything you’ve said has been wrong!! Satan attacks those who speak the truth… hhmmm…!!

By "real", I mean fully human, a real life flesh and blood human being and I say that because Trinitarians also believe and say that Jesus was a man but they do not, in actuality, see him as a man but see him as God in the flesh, a god man, 100% God and 100% man, etc.

Yeah…, the point here is not to get drawn into debating the trinitarian point of view nor give them ammunition in that regard. Jesus was a man (full stop / period). You can add ‘Holy’, ‘God fearing’, ‘Sinless’, ‘Righteous’, ‘Meek’, ‘Humble’, etc.., ATTRIBUTES of Godliness.

 

[Brian2]

Yeah…, the point here is not to get drawn into debating the trinitarian point of view nor give them ammunition in that regard. Jesus was a man (full stop / period). You can add ‘Holy’, ‘God fearing’, ‘Sinless’, ‘Righteous’, ‘Meek’, ‘Humble’, etc.., ATTRIBUTES of Godliness.

You could add "good".

 

[amazing grace]

The problem is that LANGUAGE MATTERS. You might think that ‘Came from Heaven’ means ‘Came from God… was sent by God’ but that ‘Came from Heaven’ ALSO UPHOLDS the Trinitarian mindset. So if an ambiguous ‘claim’ also means similar claim THEN USE the similar claim … that’s what I’m showing you. Your point in posts regarding such claims will then not be subject to ambiguous interpretations. Notice that the translators (who were trinitarian) wrote, ‘CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN’… how do you defend yourself against that if you write, ‘Came from Heaven’… what is the difference to the those who read and hear what you are saying; you might understand what you mean but those hearing you will not understand what you MEANT TO BE SAYING… guess what? Just as I did when I said that you sounded like you were supporting a pre-existent Jesus since if he CAME [Down] FROM then he must have existed IN HEAVEN before being SENT…

You must be able to now see that both parts are wrong since Jesus was SENT only AFTER he was anointed and tested in the wilderness which goes with the verses I showed you in which Jesus told the people the same in the synagogue. Read also, Acts 10:37-38 where an apostles tells of God anointing Jesus with Holy Spirit and power AND his jesus THEN went about healing the sick …and preaching the words of God.

‘When the time had come…’, 30 years after Jesus was born, the spirit of God led Jesus to seek out John the Baptist so that God could anoint Jesus for the task he would be sent on!!

You have never KNOWINGLY veered from the truth…!!

You CAN show the trinitarian the truth - some of them have never seen the truth because they were indoctrinated as their first belief. Showing them the truth could make them think and therefore are no longer ignorant of the truth. And it amazes me that you say no one proved that anything you’ve said has been wrong!! Satan attacks those who speak the truth… hhmmm…!!

Yeah…, the point here is not to get drawn into debating the trinitarian point of view nor give them ammunition in that regard. Jesus was a man (full stop / period). You can add ‘Holy’, ‘God fearing’, ‘Sinless’, ‘Righteous’, ‘Meek’, ‘Humble’, etc.., ATTRIBUTES of Godliness.

Thank you for the admonishments but you have your way of speaking and I have my way of speaking.

 

[Soapy]

Thank you for the admonishments but you have your way of speaking and I have my way of speaking.

So you will always be in contention and like it…?

Agreeing to disagree is not solving the problem of truth… truth that I thought you were attempting to disseminate in this forum.

Oh well… ‘He who has ears …’!

Do you believe that Trinitarians think that you are not saying that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven? Do you think that you are saying what they are thinking… that Jesus ‘CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN’? This just adds to the idea you have that Jesus was ‘Sent’ as a baby… No! He was ‘sent’ after God anointed him. Jesus did not start his mission until after he was anointed and SENT to do God’s work: ‘This is my Son in whom I am well pleased!!’:

• ‘Behold my servant - MY CHOSEN ONE - in whom I am well pleased. I will put my Spirit on him and he will do my bidding…’ (Isaiah 42:1 paraphrased)

Jesus was TESTED as to his ability to overcome sin by way of the trials in the wilderness. Doubles there were more than three trials but he passed them all. So, it was AFTER he was tested and PASSED… that he was SENT. Does anyone SEND an untested person to do the most important work in history of mankind?

You don’t think that to avoid the ambiguity you should ‘change your language’ (the way you say things?) You say ‘no’! Is it pride? It’s simple… just understand that progression requires change or else you will forever be in contention.