Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
QtoU: ‘Who created all things - God or Jesus?’
So, even simple questions go over your head…
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Jesus - First Born?
- Thread starter Soapy
- Start date
So, even simple questions go over your head…
amazing grace
Active Member
John 8:58 - I agree with what Soapy said in Post #673.
John 10:30 - I agree with what that scripture says and if being one with the Father makes Jesus God - what does that make those who believe who are to be one with the Father and with Jesus? John 17:20-23
Yes, I know the meaning of "root" and "offspring" and I know that God was not the root and offspring of David.
Brian2
Veteran Member
So YHWH was sending His messenger to prepare the way for Him.
What are you telling us Soapy? Does this mean that the Messiah is YHWH?
BTW, not Amazing Angel.
John the Baptist is an interesting person.
He said that he was not Elijah
John 1:21“Then who are you?” they inquired. “Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”
John said he is the one spoken of in Isa 40:3 A voice of one, crying in the wilderness, prepare the way of YHWH;
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Jesus said of John the Baptist: Matt 11:13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.
John was born of a man and woman and so was their son, not Elijah, but Jesus said that he was Elijah who is to come.
The angel who appeared to Zechariah spoke of John and said:
Luke 1:14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”
So John was to go before YHWH in the spirit and power of Elijah. He was filled with the Spirit from birth and was led by the Spirit and the Spirit gave him the power of Elijah. This would be like when Elijah prophesied that Elisha would get a double portion of the spirit of Elijah.
2Kings 2:9After they had crossed over, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken away from you?” “Please, let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied. 10“You have requested a difficult thing,” said Elijah. “Nevertheless, if you see me as I am taken from you, it will be yours. But if not, then it will not be so.”
So no, John the Baptist was not from heaven even if God, the Spirit of God in him had sent him to prepare His way. So in that respect John the Baptist came from God.
John 1:6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John.7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
I guess being a witness to the true light that gives light to every man and that was coming into the world, was the same as preparing the way of YHWH, God.
I'm sorry that all these scriptures seem to show Jesus as being God, I know how you disagree with this and so if it offends you I apologise.
Anyway, we can see that John the Baptist was not in heaven with God and was not sent from heaven. John said that he was not Elijah after all.
But prophets are sent by God and from God who speaks to them, and John the Baptist was sent from God just like any other prophet.
Jesus also was sent from God in the same way. God spoke to Him and sent Him.
BUT Jesus also tells us that He came from "heaven" and that He is the only one who has come from heaven. So we can see that none of the other prophets, even though they were sent by and from God, ever were in heaven or sent from heaven,,,,,,,,,,,,,, that is something only said of Jesus.
Would you like a list of verses that tell us that the pre human Jesus was in heaven with the Father and was going back there to where He was?
No I imagine you know them already but do not believe them.
amazing grace
Active Member
It's "Amazing Grace".
John the Baptist was sent from God. I would say that John was sent from God in the sense that "Elizabeth was barren and both (Elizabeth and Zechariah) were advanced in years" (John 1:7) and their prayer for a child was answered "your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son and you shall call his name John." (John 1:13) - God opened her womb so that she would bear a child.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The scriptures does not say that Christians will be one with the Father and with Jesus. Jesus is one with the Father and Christians are to be one with each other in Christ. We are one body with the Spirit of Christ in us, uniting us and joining us to Christ in spirit and making us adopted children of God.
John 17:20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Through whom, or by means of whom were all things created?
Do you think that Jesus was one of those created things?
What do you think of what @amazing grace says-- That these passages are referring to the new creation?
amazing grace
Active Member
That they may be one - JUST AS YOU, FATHER, ARE IN ME, AND I IN YOU, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN US - "just as" is an idiom used in different contexts meaning: "to an equal degree as"; or "in the same way as" - being one with the Father and being one with Christ makes us one with each other in other in the body.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
So Brian2, WHO is the creator?
A new stone statue is erected in the town square - Who is it that created the statue: the MAN, or is it the INSTRUMENT, the chisel, the man used to carve the statue?
Is it GOD who CREATED ALL THINGS BY HIMSELF … through who you say was Jesus (who didn’t exist when all things were created) OR Jesus BY HIMSELF - Jesus, and Jesus alone? And where does Jesus say he created anything?
How then do you justify ‘I, and I alone, created all things’ with ‘I, and a future human Being, created all things - ALONE!’ Jesus being the name given to the holy child at his birth in the world as the promised Messiah… Remember that the child, as an adult of 30 years old, had three and half years to spread the word of God AND DIE in order to fulfil the messiahship - if Jesus did not die there would have been no ‘Christianity’ in the world: ‘A seed must first DIE before it can germinate and create new seed’
As Obiwan Kinobi said to Darth Vader: ‘Strike me down and you make me more powerful than you could ever imagine!!’
No Brian2, The Lord GOD created all things USING THE INSTRUMENT OF HIS SPIRIT. The Lord God’s Spirit is not a separate part of the Lord God - It is the ACTIVE FORCE of The Lord God which is why John 1:1 says that it was WITH the Lord GOD in the beginning and WAS GOD (which is to say, ‘It was Almighty, Glorious, Monumental, Ultimate’: The action of the word of God: ‘Let there be light!!’)
A Grandmaster Chess player can be said to be ‘GOD… of his game’: the ultimate player, glorious, majestic, monumental… greatest of all whom are called Chess Players!! (‘… of his game’ is to give context only!!)
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
‘One body, one Spirit … one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.’
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
No, Brian2. YHWH was sending His messenger ahead of the Lord Messiah. You know this because it’s all played out in John the Baptist paving the way for the Messiah, Jesus Christ:
John, crying out in the wilderness: ‘make straight the way of the Lord!’
Brian2, you know this to be not at all what I said nor would ever say:
- ‘Whom did the YHWH consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?’ (Isaiah 40:14)
Thanks… I know an ‘Amazing Grace’ so I keep thinking ‘not to think it’s her!’ I’ll learn - sorry, Amazing Grace!
You may want to check out what Mark says:
- ‘as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I [YHWH] will send my messenger [John the Baptist] ahead of you [The Messiah], who will prepare your [The messiah’s] way” — a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’” (Mark 1:2-3)
No one is arguing about John the Baptist not being Elijah. THE Elijah raised up the body and spirit of the dead boy… John the Baptist raised up the dead body and spirits of the Jews to believe in the coming Messiah. That’s the similarity… not the reality!!! Follow this revelation to you with what you say below:
You’ve intervened in a private conversation I was having with Amazing Grace and misunderstood what we were discussing!!
Oh, Brian2… you still trying your nonsense?
No, Jesus is not and never was YHWH.
YHWH is THE FATHER…
Jesus Christ is THE SON in human…
Jesus never said he came from Heaven. It was the Trinitarians translators who mistranslated Jesus’ words. Check out Ephesians 4:8:10:
- ‘This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
- (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
- He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
- ‘A seed must first be put into the ground (descend) before it can rise up (Ascend) again and produce more seed’ (paraphrased).
Which is the correct saying?
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus said a few times that He was praying that His disciples would be one, and you seem to be saying that He was praying that He and the Father and the disciples would be one. Is that true or am I misreading what you are saying?
Brian2
Veteran Member
I guess that means you don't know how all things were created through Jesus, the Son, because for you Jesus did not exist at the creation.
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amazing grace
Active Member
Jesus was praying for his disciples and for those who would believe in him through their words.
God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (2 Cor. 5:19) = the Father in Jesus.
Christ is in us the hope of glory (Col. 1:27) = Jesus Christ in us = being one with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ = becoming a part of the body of Christ with Christ as the head and each believer as a member of that body.
Dimi95
Прaвославие!
@Soapy
I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with you many times, but you fail to accept that I DONT CARE HOW YOU understand the passages since you fail to use Scripture in proving that.
I am not interested in your explenations , since its your own understanding,therefore untill you reason yourself no answer will be given to you.
You are trying to convince yourself , not the ones who talk with you , can't you see that?
Exodus 17:6
"Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink."
John 4:10
"If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
1 Corinthians 10
"For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ..Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Do you want me to give you Hebrew and Greek tranlsation so you can see that Yahweh is Christ?
Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Again , if you can't support your claims with Scripture i won't even read them.
I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with you many times, but you fail to accept that I DONT CARE HOW YOU understand the passages since you fail to use Scripture in proving that.
I am not interested in your explenations , since its your own understanding,therefore untill you reason yourself no answer will be given to you.
You are trying to convince yourself , not the ones who talk with you , can't you see that?
Exodus 17:6
"Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink."
John 4:10
"If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
1 Corinthians 10
"For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ..Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Do you want me to give you Hebrew and Greek tranlsation so you can see that Yahweh is Christ?
Isaiah 9:6
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Again , if you can't support your claims with Scripture i won't even read them.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
When Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", since the "one" is in the neuter gender that means that He was meaning, "I and the Father are one thing".
Sure we and Jesus would want us to be in harmony with Himself and the Father, but that is not what is meant in the scriptures when it says that the Father and Son are one.
We can be united with Christ, being one with Him in His humanity. We become part of the humanity of Jesus, with His Spirit in us (and there is just one Spirit, the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit) We are corporately and individually the body of Christ, with His Spirit giving us life.
We unite with Christ in His Sonship, becoming adopted children to His actually coming from His Father Sonship.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The Word of God tells us that the universe that will perish is the work of the hands of Jesus. (Heb 1:10-12)
I justify it logically by saying for a start that Jesus (the pre human Jesus) was in heaven with God before coming to earth. This of course is told to us 101 times in the New Testament so that part of it should be easy for you to follow.
So the heavens are the work of the Son's hands and the Son was in heaven with God before He came to earth. This of course would mean that He was there at the creation, creating when YHWH alone was doing that.
Hmmm, tell me what logical conclusion you get about who Jesus is when you listen to what the scriptures say.
So are you saying that the Word (the Logos) is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God?
Brian2
Veteran Member
YHWH sent His messenger to prepare the way for Himself. John cried out in the wilderness, "make straight the way of YHWH".
Now this does not "prove" that Jesus was God but it helps and certainly is more accurate than what you were quoting.
Mark 1:2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,[b]
“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare[c] the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”
You may want to check out what the quote in Isaiah says.
Isa 40:3 A voice cries:2“In the wilderness prepare the way of YHWH;
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Sorry, that can be annoying. But I was working my way to the conclusion, that just because the scriptures say that John the Baptist is from God, that does not mean that he was from God in the same way that Jesus was from God, as Jesus, but not John the Baptist is said to have come from heaven, to have been in heaven before the foundation of the world, to be returning to heaven etc etc.
Do you realise that John 3:13 is Jesus speaking while on earth?
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
So Jesus was saying that He came from heaven.
That means that you need to have your eyes tested because you claimed that Jesus never said he came from Heaven. Or maybe it has nothing to do with your eyes. What else do you think it might be that is causing you to deny the scriptures like that. Have you got yourself mixed up with the wrong crowd who are leading you astray and telling you not to believe the scriptures?
So what is the answer to Proverbs 30:4?
Eph 4:10 seems to be about the burial and resurrection of Jesus and His ascension and that He is now filling the whole universe. Interesting that He is everywhere just like God is.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
So you cannot answer the question… That’s not surprising, obfuscating as you always do!
Jesus was the PROMISED MESSIAH. The Father created all things and promised it as a reward for the son in humanity whom He loved the most: The ‘FIRSTBORN’ (The most beloved) of all humanity.
This ‘Firstborn’ has nothing to do with chronological birth - ‘First Born’. It’s just unfortunate that the two words are sound-a-likes in the same way that ‘LORD’ and ‘Lord’ are spelt the same and sound the same but are vastly different in their meaning. But I know that you will ignore truth that is presented to you in order to further your own raise cause… and for what reason? Nothing big to be an antagonist… taking pleasure in opposing godliness in truth.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
It’s ok, I can put you on ‘ignore’ as well…!
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
When you say:
- “We unite with Christ in His Sonship, becoming adopted children to His actually coming from His Father Sonship.”
When you plot it out, you are saying that
- “The Son is the Father”
- “I and the Father are one”
Shock!!! You didn’t realise what you were saying??? Really???