Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Subduction Zone]

Only in your eyes... and yet it is obvious that your prayers are different than mine and to say all prayers are equal is to be blind to the obvious.

In the eyes of any honest person. You were shown to be wrong and now you are squirming and trying to find an out.

 

[Subduction Zone]

FINALLY! a great question (since we are talking about Biblical prayer):

Matt 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

The difference is answered prayers vs. not answered prayers. Analogy: the difference is between using aspirin when you needed an antibiotic--one produces the desired results and one doesn't.

Do you not see how relying on the Bible as an example is inherently flawed?


smh

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Of course there are different sorts of prayers. So what? If you have been following along you would have seen that all of the studies involved used the same classification of prayer. Your bringing up the different sorts of prayer was just a red herring. An improper way of trying to avoid the obvious. The only conclusion that can be done of proper studies is that prayer does not appear to work. There is no reliable evidence that it works. You found an outdated and flawed study. Flaws means that even if it appears to support your beliefs. And it really does not since you ignored the fact that deaths and other serious complications were no different at least statistically in the very study that you cited. That means that you failed to find reliable evidence that supports your beliefs.

Once again, you did not fool anyone with your attempt except for perhaps yourself. Your prayers are just as devoid of power as mine are. You really should not add your calling your own God immoral to your list of "sins".

Prayers don't work, period in the real world. But in the Christian universe they work, but only if you get the words exactly right the way God wants to hear them, and if you don't accidentally miscategorize them (did you see the laundry list of types of prayers someone posted here that God recognizes--was it 10). What if you kneeling, not standing when you pray, or if you raise your hands to heaven and not keep them clasped you get a better outcome, or are your eyes open or are they closed when you pray--that will affect God deciding whether or not to answer you, you know. When you look up to the sky are you daydreaming, or really concentrating on the prayer. Did you for even a moment think of whether you left the stove on when you walked out the door--that can tick God off too and make him even less likely to want to answer your prayer. I mean in the Christian universe so many things can go wrong when you pray--that's the likely reason your prayer didn't work. BUT NEVER FEAR--God does answer prayers!

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

FINALLY! a great question (since we are talking about Biblical prayer):

Matt 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

The difference is answered prayers vs. not answered prayers. Analogy: the difference is between using aspirin when you needed an antibiotic--one produces the desired results and one doesn't.

Actually the difference is more like using a antibiotic to cure a headache vs using an anticoagulant. Breaking news! Neither will do the job.

 

[Kenny]

In the eyes of any honest person. You were shown to be wrong and now you are squirming and trying to find an out.

Only in the recesses of your imagination and your misdiagnosis of what honesty is. Your inability to acknowledge simple realities, pertinent questions, applicable differences shows that it is just your biased views that drives your thought patterns.

 

[Kenny]

Do you not see how relying on the Bible as an example is inherently flawed?


smh

Do you realize that when a study is done within the context of Biblical prayer that in inherently includes the Bible? Or do you not understand the studies that we have been talking about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Only in the recesses of your imagination and your misdiagnosis of what honesty is. Your inability to acknowledge simple realities, pertinent questions, applicable differences shows that it is just your biased views that drives your thought patterns.

Please, you screwed up. You used a poor source. That source was refuted over thirty years ago. Your source was so poor that even Paul Harvey criticized it. To cover up your loss you are trying to play a game of "Heads I win, tails you lose". You won't fool anyone with that nonsense.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you realize that when a study is done within the context of Biblical prayer that in inherently includes the Bible? Or do you not understand the studies that we have been talking about.

The Bible version worked only because "magic Jesus" said the words. That is pretty pathetic. You used your source improperly. As you used it it does not count since the Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence.

I could post a story about the FSM curing someone (though I could not since he does not interfere that way with his Noodly Appendates rAmen) or some other deity and claim that as "evidence".

The rules for medical evidence are basically the same as scientific evidence. That means that you do not have any evidence because you have to avoid one of the key requirements to have evidence in the first place.

 

[Kenny]

Please, you screwed up. You used a poor source. That source was refuted over thirty years ago. Your source was so poor that even Paul Harvey criticized it. To cover up your loss you are trying to play a game of "Heads I win, tails you lose". You won't fool anyone with that nonsense.

That doesn't help you any. Criticism is normal... all I have to do is read your posts. BUT, it doesn't change the reality of my points.

 

[Kenny]

The Bible version worked only because "magic Jesus" said the words. That is pretty pathetic. You used your source improperly. As you used it it does not count since the Bible is the claim, it is not the evidence.

I could post a story about the FSM curing someone (though I could not since he does not interfere that way with his Noodly Appendates rAmen) or some other deity and claim that as "evidence".

The rules for medical evidence are basically the same as scientific evidence. That means that you do not have any evidence because you have to avoid one of the key requirements to have evidence in the first place.

LOL

Another two steps on "how not to address a subject lest I agree with a Theist".

Do you understand how studies are supposed to work?

I just LOVE your adjectives demonstrations of your bias... FSM, magic, pathetic et al... an overused exuse used by so many people.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That doesn't help you any. Criticism is normal... all I have to do is read your posts. BUT, it doesn't change the reality of my points.

The reality of your posts is that they have been refuted because you have fallen to the level of using a version of a No True Scotsman fallacy. The sort of prayers were clear from the start. That a fair number of Christians praying "properly" was a clear conclusion since there was no attempt to exclude Christians. You failed to support your claim.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL

Another two steps on "how not to address a subject lest I agree with a Theist".

Do you understand how studies are supposed to work?

I just LOVE your adjectives demonstrations of your bias... FSM, magic, pathetic et al... an overused exuse used by so many people.

Yes, I do understand how studies are supposed to work. You are once again accusing others of your flaws. And the only bias I have is against dishonesty.

It is possible to do a valid study of the efficacy of prayer. In fact it has been done several times. You just don't like the results. And I know that it rattles some unreasonable Christians when the term "magic" is used properly . That is not really a sign of bias. You might want to, as the liberals like to say, check your privilege.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The reality of your posts is that they have been refuted because you have fallen to the level of using a version of a No True Scotsman fallacy. The sort of prayers were clear from the start. That a fair number of Christians praying "properly" was a clear conclusion since there was no attempt to exclude Christians. You failed to support your claim.

I think ken is just yanking your chain, Subduction. He's getting a good laugh out of all this, I'm sure.

 

[metis]

I think prayer can especially be effective to the one doing the praying, namely to try and determine within ourselves what's truly important. Whether it changes anything else, I don't know, but I don't find any harm in trying.

But if prayer gets me off my arse so as to do that which is morally helpful, that's a "victory", imo.

 

[samtonga43]

Would it change your opinion if I had said, "Father I ask you to intercede on behalf of my child, Suzi who has terminal cancer and heal her of this horrible disease. I ask in Jesus' name. Amen"? Heavens to Betsy, man--a person has got to get every word just right with God before He'll lift a finger to intervene. "Nope, sorry Joe. In your prayer you said 'In Jesus' name' you didn't say 'In your begotten son's holy name, Jesus' so I'm not going to cure Suzi."

You miss my point.

 

[Kenny]

The reality of your posts is that they have been refuted because you have fallen to the level of using a version of a No True Scotsman fallacy. The sort of prayers were clear from the start. That a fair number of Christians praying "properly" was a clear conclusion since there was no attempt to exclude Christians. You failed to support your claim.

And yet it was so logically presented with a "prayer based" example. I bet you a dollar to a doughnut your refuted "prayer doesn't work" site didn't take those points into account. A flawed study where you had to admit I was right when I gave you the example of your prayer vs my prayer. (Which you so conveniently ingnored)

 

[Kenny]

I think prayer can especially be effective to the one doing the praying, namely to try and determine within ourselves what's truly important. Whether it changes anything else, I don't know, but I don't find any harm in trying.

But if prayer gets me off my arse so as to do that which is morally helpful, that's a "victory", imo.

The meditation prayer that you mentioned certainly is effective for that purpose. Reflecting and praying through those prayers as you meditate on the word is a great life-giving tool

 

[samtonga43]

LOL

Another two steps on "how not to address a subject lest I agree with a Theist".

Do you understand how studies are supposed to work?

I just LOVE your adjectives demonstrations of your bias... FSM, magic, pathetic et al... an overused exuse used by so many people.

Before being drawn to Christ I used this kind of language also. I thought I was 'clever' and that Christians were deluded and weak-minded.

I see here the same arguments I myself used against Christianity and I feel hopeful. If God can turn me around then he can do the same with our atheist friends.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And yet it was so logically presented with a "prayer based" example. I bet you a dollar to a doughnut your refuted "prayer doesn't work" site didn't take those points into account. A flawed study where you had to admit I was right when I gave you the example of your prayer vs my prayer. (Which you so conveniently ingnored)

No, it wasn't. I do not think that you understand the concept of "logically".

And no, the admissions I gave were very qualified. They did not mean what you just claimed that they did. And no, I did not ignore your example. That is a falsehood. Go back and reread the post. You are reading selectively and incorrectly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Before being drawn to Christ I used this kind of language also. I thought I was 'clever' and that Christians were deluded and weak-minded.

I see here the same arguments I myself used against Christianity and I feel hopeful. If God can turn me around then he can do the same with our atheist friends.

All that believers need to do is to come up with honest and well thought out arguments. Pretending that the Bible does not fail at times only makes it less likely that anyone will be convinced.

How do you deal with the many failures of the Bible/