Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Kenny]

@KenS There's also "contemplative prayer" [aka "meditative prayer"]. I use this form more than any other.

Thanks Metis... I had forgotten that one.

 

[Kenny]

No, no, no. That appears to be what you are doing. I looked for numerous studies. I wanted to know if prayer was effective or not. The better the study nd the more of them done the worse that it looks for prayer. You chose an extremely old poorly run study and hung your hat on it. Don't accuse others of what you do. I did the opposite of cherry picking.
?

And yet, if I wanted to look at scriptures, the different types of prayers are self evident. Not wanting to address important prayer principles (if we are going to use it) is of utmost importance.

We don't want an aspirin prayer when we need an antibiotic prayer.

Let's be realistic right now... suppose someone asked you to "pray for a person that is sick"... would you prayer have the same impact as an unbeliever as one who believes? Of course not. And yet you insist that who prayed and what type of prayer is of no consequence.

 

[Kenny]

Come on, Ken. Obviously we're talking about intercessory prayer. And you want a laundry list of specifications so that you can jump in and say, "Well, it appears no's 2,5,and 7 were not met by the people doing the praying so naturally God didn't answer their prayers. It's just more apologetic papering over the obvious: God doesn't answer intercessory prayers.

Evidence?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The question would be, "who cherry picked bad studies".

Again... a simple and direct question...

What kind of prayers were used
Who did the prayer.

When someone doesn't want to answer important questions, it makes me believe it doesn't matter what one says or presents, the person simply has made their decision. (Which is fine by me--I don't mind receiving the benefits of prayer even if someone else doesn't want it)



An analysis of studies is a normal process of any process to determine its validity. So no straws except the ones you offer.

You see the anecdotes as not evidence. I see them as evidence of prayer. Same results but different interpretation.

As for those who died... what type of prayers did they lift to God? Are there other circumstances that were considered?

As for luck... don't believe in it and the multitude in our church would agree that luck had nothing to do with their personal testimony of what God did.

Why do you keep repeating errors that were explained to you?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Making unsupportive statements without evidence doesn't qualify as a good debate. Maybe if you added, "In my personal opinion"?

Actually I went past that. But you did use a dishonest source. I get irritated when people do that. It is not quite lying, but it is awfully close to it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And yet, if I wanted to look at scriptures, the different types of prayers are self evident. Not wanting to address important prayer principles (if we are going to use it) is of utmost importance.

We don't want an aspirin prayer when we need an antibiotic prayer.

Let's be realistic right now... suppose someone asked you to "pray for a person that is sick"... would you prayer have the same impact as an unbeliever as one who believes? Of course not. And yet you insist that who prayed and what type of prayer is of no consequence.

That really does not matter. You are simply avoiding the obvious at this point in time. And trying to mischaracterize what I said is definitely not honest. Once again any large group would have some Christians in it. In fact in the U.S. the majority would be Christians. You found an old flawed study and expect people to give credence to it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Evidence?

Your own posts. No one is fooled by your actions here.

 

[Riders]

Well, I think the environment will be destroyed before Jesus has a chance to come back. But it is odd the bible verses.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Evidence?

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer (Published 2006)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer (Published 2006)

He has been trying to apply a "No True Scotsman" fallacy since there is no guarantee that it was Christians doing proper prayers. Even though any random group in the U.S. is going to be mostly Christian.

And as I pointed out, the people that knew they were being prayed for ruins the double blind nature of that part of the study This is pretty much pure speculation, but it appears that knowing people were praying for them meant that they realized they were in bad trouble and pessimism arising from that seems to have hurt their chances.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

What makes it obvious?

What would this kind of a prayer being categorized as:

Father, in Jesus name I ask you to intercede on behalf of my child, Suzi who has been diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. I know you can do all things. I trust in your holy word and your promise that all things are possible with you. In Jesus' name, Amen"

You going to try to tell me that's not an intercessory prayer request?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

He has been trying to apply a "No True Scotsman" fallacy since there is no guarantee that it was Christians doing proper prayers. Even though any random group in the U.S. is going to be mostly Christian.

And as I pointed out, the people that knew they were being prayed for ruins the double blind nature of that part of the study This is pretty much pure speculation, but it appears that knowing people were praying for them meant that they realized they were in bad trouble and pessimism arising from that seems to have hurt their chances.

Yes, I know (sigh) Denial is such a powerful psychological crutch for maintaining one's faith. Truly sad.

 

[samtonga43]

What would this kind of a prayer being categorized as:

Father, in Jesus name I ask you to intercede on behalf of my child, Suzi who has been diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. I know you can do all things. I trust in your holy word and your promise that all things are possible with you. In Jesus' name, Amen"

You going to try to tell me that's not an intercessory prayer request?

I'm going to tell you that this prayer is not necessarily asking God to physically heal Suzi. I'm surprised you don't realize this.

 

[Kenny]

That really does not matter. You are simply avoiding the obvious at this point in time. And trying to mischaracterize what I said is definitely not honest. Once again any large group would have some Christians in it. In fact in the U.S. the majority would be Christians. You found an old flawed study and expect people to give credence to it.

No... that is sidestepping the very issue that I raised and avoiding the point is definitely not honest.

 

[Kenny]

He has been trying to apply a "No True Scotsman" fallacy since there is no guarantee that it was Christians doing proper prayers. Even though any random group in the U.S. is going to be mostly Christian.

And as I pointed out, the people that knew they were being prayed for ruins the double blind nature of that part of the study This is pretty much pure speculation, but it appears that knowing people were praying for them meant that they realized they were in bad trouble and pessimism arising from that seems to have hurt their chances.

And yet, as I pointed out very specifically, there are different types of prayers. Doesn't matter if it is double blind nature, a wrong prayer is still a wrong prayer.

And a faithless prayer, like one you would offer, is still devoid of power.

But you seem to want to bypass the obvious... for obvious reasons.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I'm going to tell you that this prayer is not necessarily asking God to physically heal Suzi. I'm surprised you don't realize this.

Would it change your opinion if I had said, "Father I ask you to intercede on behalf of my child, Suzi who has terminal cancer and heal her of this horrible disease. I ask in Jesus' name. Amen"? Heavens to Betsy, man--a person has got to get every word just right with God before He'll lift a finger to intervene. "Nope, sorry Joe. In your prayer you said 'In Jesus' name' you didn't say 'In your begotten son's holy name, Jesus' so I'm not going to cure Suzi."

 

[Subduction Zone]

No... that is sidestepping the very issue that I raised and avoiding the point is definitely not honest.

No, there was no "there" there. There was no issue. Just an abuse of one.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And yet, as I pointed out very specifically, there are different types of prayers. Doesn't matter if it is double blind nature, a wrong prayer is still a wrong prayer.

And a faithless prayer, like one you would offer, is still devoid of power.

But you seem to want to bypass the obvious... for obvious reasons.

Of course there are different sorts of prayers. So what? If you have been following along you would have seen that all of the studies involved used the same classification of prayer. Your bringing up the different sorts of prayer was just a red herring. An improper way of trying to avoid the obvious. The only conclusion that can be done of proper studies is that prayer does not appear to work. There is no reliable evidence that it works. You found an outdated and flawed study. Flaws means that even if it appears to support your beliefs. And it really does not since you ignored the fact that deaths and other serious complications were no different at least statistically in the very study that you cited. That means that you failed to find reliable evidence that supports your beliefs.

Once again, you did not fool anyone with your attempt except for perhaps yourself. Your prayers are just as devoid of power as mine are. You really should not add your calling your own God immoral to your list of "sins".

 

[Kenny]

No, there was no "there" there. There was no issue. Just an abuse of one.

Only in your eyes... and yet it is obvious that your prayers are different than mine and to say all prayers are equal is to be blind to the obvious.

 

[Kenny]

Of course there are different sorts of prayers. So what?

FINALLY! a great question (since we are talking about Biblical prayer):

Matt 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:

The difference is answered prayers vs. not answered prayers. Analogy: the difference is between using aspirin when you needed an antibiotic--one produces the desired results and one doesn't.