Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
So you agree. My claim was a rational claim.
It is not an unreasonable test. By the way, you may not understand the concept of falsifiability. You did not object to my test, you recognized the obvious.
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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
It is not an unreasonable test. By the way, you may not understand the concept of falsifiability. You did not object to my test, you recognized the obvious.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Perhaps the verse above refers to the second coming of Christ because the following verses refer to the time of the end (not the end of the world but rather the end of the age) which would be future tense from when Paul wrote 1 Cor 15.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
As I said before, I believe these verses refer to what will happen at the second coming, but it won’t be the same man Jesus who is coming. Rather it will be the return of the Christ Spirit in another man with a New Name (Rev 2:17, Rev 3:12), and I believe that was Baha’u’llah.
Why do Christians believe that the same Jesus is gong to return to earth when Jesus clearly said His work was finished here and He is no more in the world? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus has more work to do.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Do they just ignore that part of the Bible? No Christian has eve been able to provide me with even one verse where Jesus promised to return to earth.
I believe that Jesus referred to his mission he had when he came to earth 2000 years ago, that was finished indeed. On the cross.
I can't say if you Bahaullah had that spirit, too.
However, at Pentecost everyone had it, anyway,
so it wouldn't have made sense for Paul to announce Jesus for a future coming in the spirit.
Jesus may not have promised his second coming as a promise. Cause a simple announcement is enough, I think.
An announcement in the sense of the verse we are discussing right now. (1 Corinthians 15:23)
But that happened at Penticost, already.
I can't say if you Bahaullah had that spirit, too.
However, at Pentecost everyone had it, anyway,
so it wouldn't have made sense for Paul to announce Jesus for a future coming in the spirit.
Jesus may not have promised his second coming as a promise. Cause a simple announcement is enough, I think.
An announcement in the sense of the verse we are discussing right now. (1 Corinthians 15:23)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why do you believe that Jesus has more work to do, when He said He had finished the work God gave Him to do?
As I told you before, I do not believe that verse was an announcement of Jesus coming back.
I believe that it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to send and that was the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth Jesus referred to in John 14, 15 and 16.
I do not believe that the future coming was in spirit, I believe it was a man who was promised by Jesus, a man who was referred to as the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth since he would bring the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter.
John 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Christians believe that the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost once and for all time.
Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Baha’is also believe that the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost, but we believe it was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have these verses, indicating that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:
Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.
Revelation 6
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…
“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
There is much more detail regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.
When you get whipped, Trailblazer, are you in the mood to go into great detail concerning your future plans, or do you rather answer questions in a short and concise manner?
So did Jesus when he said "it is finished!".
What he had to do during this life span 2000 years ago was fulfilled at that point.
Your Bible verse indicates that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit as opposed to a human being.
So it cannot be a human being, according to the Bible.
The Holy Spirit can join a person though, as he did at Pentecost.
You're citing Acts 2:17-21. But this passage is just an explanation given by Peter about what just happened there at Pentecost. That's all.
When you posted this verse, it wasn't clear that Peter spoke in these verses. It is a citation. In this citation, Peter himself cites these ancient prophecies about the Holy Spirit to come on all people... and it just happened there.
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No really... I do know how studies are done. I think you don't understand how studies are done.
Thus my questions:
What type of prayers were used?
Who did the praying?
You don't seem to be able to answer those questions. Let me give you a similar application:
Did they use aspirins or antibiotics for pneumonia (types of prayer)
Did the doctor prescribe it or just a family member (who did the praying)
Maybe that will clarify why the studies are not valid studies.
There you go again...
When you can't deal with the subject matter you attack the poster.]No... please see my previous post. You can't answer those question and I gave you an example why it isn't a good study.
Do you even know the different types of prayer?
Yesterday I went to the hospital. My friend had been intubated and they were going to do a tracheotomy. We prayed.
Today, he is awake... talking and no tracheotomy needed. Hmmmmmmmm...........
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You are asking the wrong questions. That tells us that you likely do not know how these studies are done. The more important questions are related to how they separated those who are being prayed for from those doing the prayers. If one knows that one is being prayed for that can affect the results. Sometimes negatively. You need to realize that in any group a significant number will be Christians in the U.S.. You are merely grasping at straws right now implying that they did not pray the right way.
Again.... what type of prayers were used and who did the prayer. Here is another study:
Both of these methods produced statisti- cally significant results in favor of the prayer group. The severity score showed that the prayer group had an overall better outcome (P < .01) and the multivariate analysis produced a P value of <.0001 on the basis of the prayer group’s lesser requirements for antibiotics, diuretics, and intubation/ventilation.
In this study I have attempted to determine whether intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has any effect on the medical condition and recovery of hospitalized patients. I further have attempted to measure any effects, if present, of those prayers. Based on these data there seemed to be an effect, and that effect was presumed to be beneficial.
smj.pdf
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
There you go again...
No, it simply looks that way when you use the sort of arguments that you have been using. I did not say that you were being dishonest. The data goes against your beliefs. When one does not cherry pick bad studies there does not appear to be any benefit from prayer. By the way, the one negative study was not actually a proper study either since people knew that they were being prayed for. Well it did show one thing, that in some cases the knowledge that people are praying for you can have negative results. It really says nothing about the efficacy of prayer because they had extra knowledge that could skew the results.
And this was not just "a study". It was an analysis of a number of studies. Your questions are merely grasping at straws.
And guess what, anecdotes are not evidence. Why did you even bring up this story? I could give you countless more of people that were prayed for and died. Your friend appears to have just been one of the lucky ones. And you should know better. This has been explained to you before. This is why you get comments like "Now it appears that you are not being honest" at times because it is not a proper debating technique to cherry pick anecdotes. You have to know this.
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Please, try to find a reliable source. The title of the source tells you that they are Liars for Jesus. That is really what the term "apologetics" means. I have yet to see one that cannot be shown to be such. Find something that at least went through peer review. Preferably from a well respected (not the Glamour Press) professional medical journal.
I doubt if you will find such a study since they have a certain standard for studies that I doubt if your can meet.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Okay, a little study, @KenS . The article that you cited was originally rejected at least twice by other journals. It was published in the Southern Medical Journal. A journal located in the heart of the Bible Belt. Here is an article that was reprinted from another source written by a medical doctor that tells you the flaws with this study. This by the way was a rather old study. It was done in 1982 and 1983 and was not published until July of 1988. A five year wait is quite a while for a medical study. Usually they are published the year that they are done. That alone indicates some problems with this work. Your good doctor had to go journal hunting to find one that would publish it. My article is rather old as well. It is from 1990. Two years later. Otherwise your study is dead on the trash heap of medical history.
God in the CCU?
One of the problems is that they had to cherry pick their findings that support their claims since more important data, such as deaths, time of recovery, did not have a significant difference:
" But no significant differences were found among the other twenty categories, including mortality, despite explicit prayers "for prevention of ... death." And, reports Byrd, "Even though for [the six seemingly significant] variables the P values were less than .05, they could not be considered statistically significant because of the large number of variables examined. I used two methods to overcome this statistical limitation ... [the] severity score, and multivariant [sic] analysis" (emphasis added)."
As studies go this one was rather small. There can easily be statistical variations. He got lucky and just some of the stats made it look as if prayer might help. But larger and better studies did not find this. That is why in a case like this a meta-study is far superior. It looks as the results of all of the studies and combines results. Prayer does not appear to help.
God in the CCU?
One of the problems is that they had to cherry pick their findings that support their claims since more important data, such as deaths, time of recovery, did not have a significant difference:
" But no significant differences were found among the other twenty categories, including mortality, despite explicit prayers "for prevention of ... death." And, reports Byrd, "Even though for [the six seemingly significant] variables the P values were less than .05, they could not be considered statistically significant because of the large number of variables examined. I used two methods to overcome this statistical limitation ... [the] severity score, and multivariant [sic] analysis" (emphasis added)."
As studies go this one was rather small. There can easily be statistical variations. He got lucky and just some of the stats made it look as if prayer might help. But larger and better studies did not find this. That is why in a case like this a meta-study is far superior. It looks as the results of all of the studies and combines results. Prayer does not appear to help.
Actually, the problem is you just accept a result without asking any questions....
What kind of prayer were they giving
Who was praying
(please review carefully the medical example to give you clarity)
Those are good things to know... but it doesn't answer the most important questions.
In that you can't answer my two questions, can I assume you don't know the different kind of prayers?
It might be good if you start asking so that you don't merely grasp at straws right now.
Interesting how your avatar says "seeking all truth" yet it appears that you don't really seek.
1) Imprecatory prayers
2) Prayer of petition
3) Prayer of consecration
4) Prayer of worship
5) Prayer of agreement
6) Prayer of faith
7) Intercessory prayer
then there is an unbelieving prayer, payer of ignorance, and others.
which one did they pray?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, no, no. That appears to be what you are doing. I looked for numerous studies. I wanted to know if prayer was effective or not. The better the study nd the more of them done the worse that it looks for prayer. You chose an extremely old poorly run study and hung your hat on it. Don't accuse others of what you do. I did the opposite of cherry picking.
Do you even know what a "meta-study" is?
Your questions are bogus questions and that was explained to you.
Try to think rationally. Do you seriously think that they would exclude Christians from their studies?
Just because you do not like the answers does not mean that your poorly asked questions were not answered.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Come on, Ken. Obviously we're talking about intercessory prayer. And you want a laundry list of specifications so that you can jump in and say, "Well, it appears no's 2,5,and 7 were not met by the people doing the praying so naturally God didn't answer their prayers. It's just more apologetic papering over the obvious: God doesn't answer intercessory prayers.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
What makes it obvious?
The question would be, "who cherry picked bad studies".
Again... a simple and direct question...
What kind of prayers were used
Who did the prayer.
When someone doesn't want to answer important questions, it makes me believe it doesn't matter what one says or presents, the person simply has made their decision. (Which is fine by me--I don't mind receiving the benefits of prayer even if someone else doesn't want it)
An analysis of studies is a normal process of any process to determine its validity. So no straws except the ones you offer.
You see the anecdotes as not evidence. I see them as evidence of prayer. Same results but different interpretation.
As for those who died... what type of prayers did they lift to God? Are there other circumstances that were considered?
As for luck... don't believe in it and the multitude in our church would agree that luck had nothing to do with their personal testimony of what God did.
Making unsupportive statements without evidence doesn't qualify as a good debate. Maybe if you added, "In my personal opinion"?