Jesus' God ???

[The Real Milk Man]

Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

 

[M_Wm_Ferguson_MTh]

In brief, and directly, no. Indirectly, and in various Scripture locations, he several times alluded to the spiritual character and nature of his Father in heaven.

However, Jesus was born and trained-up Jewish; ergo, his cultural "God" would have been the supreme Deity of the tribes and nation of Israel and all spiritual Jews: יהוה (YHVH, Yahweh, Jehovah; cp. Deut. 6:4, Mark 12:29, 32).

 

[Skwim]

Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

In Matthew 11:25 (NIV) it says,

"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."
​

Considering that Jesus was Hebrew why would anyone think this "Lord of heaven and earth" is a god other than the Hebrew YHVH?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

It seems that Jesus expressed His God as 'Perfections and Attributes'. For example we can see this in these verses:

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." John 14:20

"...Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21


In these verses, what did Jesus mean by 'I', 'you', 'Us' and 'them'?

A) Individuality (soul, body and mind)
B) The Qualities and Perfections of God

'A' is not True, because it is meaningless that the persons of disciples were inside the body of Christ literally. Likewise the individuality of Christ was not inside the Father. Neither the Father was literally inside Jesus and the disciples.

'B' is correct. Because same attributes and spiritual qualities and perfections that Jesus had, was reflected in His disciples. These were same Qualities that originated from God that was reflected by Christ, like a Mirror that reflects the Light of God.
Therefore in the sight of Christ, a Person is defined according to the degree of
Manifestation of God's perfection in him, and The Father Himself is absolute Perfection.

 

[Pegg]

Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

Yahweh/Jehovah

 

[Muffled]

It seems that Jesus expressed His God as 'Perfections and Attributes'. For example we can see this in these verses:

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." John 14:20

"...Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 17:21


In these verses, what did Jesus mean by 'I', 'you', 'Us' and 'them'?

A) Individuality (soul, body and mind)
B) The Qualities and Perfections of God

'A' is not True, because it is meaningless that the persons of disciples were inside the body of Christ literally. Likewise the individuality of Christ was not inside the Father. Neither the Father was literally inside Jesus and the disciples.

'B' is correct. Because same attributes and spiritual qualities and perfections that Jesus had, was reflected in His disciples. These were same Qualities that originated from God that was reflected by Christ, like a Mirror that reflects the Light of God.
Therefore in the sight of Christ, a Person is defined according to the degree of
Manifestation of God's perfection in him, and The Father Himself is absolute Perfection.

I believe that works as long a one realizes that spiritual qualities and perfections do not come without God's presence.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

 

[Sinful Hypocrite]

He directly acknowledged the scripture which predicts His coming here in a Synagogue in :
Luke 4
16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”f
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

 

[james2ko]

Yahweh/Jehovah

Which one? Abraham and Lot spoke to three of them.

 

[The Real Milk Man]

Which one? Abraham and Lot spoke to three of them.

Hi James,

I believe that she was probably referring to maybe one/both of these scriptures:

Rev. 3:12, He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

John 20:17, Jesus said, ... ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’

 

[CMike]

Which one? Abraham and Lot spoke to three of them.

Eh? :cover:

 

[Pegg]

Which one? Abraham and Lot spoke to three of them.

Exodus 3:6 He went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the true God. ...15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.


which other gods did you have in mind???

 

[james2ko]

Exodus 3:6 He went on to say: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the true God. ...15 Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

which other gods did you have in mind???

I believe the one speaking in your verse is the angel of Jehovah--not The Father or Jehovah Himself (vs 2). There is evidence to suggest YHVH can be singular or plural in usage, hence making it a distributed title reserved for not only the true God Himself but members of the angelic hosts who represent Him. The Father is the Jehovah or YHVH of hosts but the term YHVH is not exclusive to the Father. Notice Abraham's encounter with the angels whom he referred to as YHVH:

Gen 18:1-3 Gen 18:1-5 Then the LORD [the three angels or yahwehs] appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord [yahwehs], if I have now found favor in Your [singular] sight, do not pass on by Your [singular] servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your [plural] feet, and rest yourselves [plural] under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you [plural] may refresh your [plural] hearts. After that you [plural] may pass by, inasmuch as you [plural] have come to your servant." They [the jehovahs Abraham was addressing] said, "Do as you have said."​

In the Hebrew the word rendered in vs 3 as "lord" was in fact YHVH. To be consistent with the text, Abraham addressed all three "men" as YHVH! However when the Hebrew text was being fixed by the Sopherim they altered this word and 133 other occurrences of YHVH to read Adonai or Lord. (Their alterations were recorded in the margins of the text.) Allegedly, the reason for making these alterations was out of reverence for the Divine Name YHVH, but it seems more probable the real reason was that the Sopherim were concerned about YHVH being applied to other entities apart from YHVH Most High.

Notice in verse Gen 18:1 the three men who appeared to Abraham are referred to as YHVH. We know for a fact Abraham addressed all three as YHVH because he referred to them with the plural form of the personal pronouns "you, your, yourselves" in verses 4 and 5. But the really strange thing is the scribes inserted singular pronouns in vs 3. I believe this was done to modify the erroneously perceived subject they changed to the singular "adonai/lord" in vs 3. But it seems they forgot or simply did not bother to alter the rest of the plural pronouns to match the actual plural subject--YHVH!

A similar alteration appears in Gen 19:18. Lot refers to the two angels as YHVH which was changed to the singular "lord/adonai". Strangely, they inserted a plural pronoun "them" to modify a singular noun "adonai". The alterations along with the inconsistent grammar is proof to me the Sopherim had something to hide. There are just two examples. There are several more.

 

[metis]

Gen 18:1-3 Gen 18:1-5 Then the LORD [the three angels or yahwehs] appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord [yahwehs], if I have now found favor in Your [singular] sight, do not pass on by Your [singular] servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your [plural] feet, and rest yourselves [plural] under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you [plural] may refresh your [plural] hearts. After that you [plural] may pass by, inasmuch as you [plural] have come to your servant." They [the jehovahs Abraham was addressing] said, "Do as you have said."

In the Hebrew the word rendered in vs 3 as "lord" was in fact YHVH.

It's actually "Adonai".

 

[james2ko]

It's actually "Adonai".

It was changed to "adonai". Prior to this alteration it read YHVH. Google the 134 emendations of the sopherim.

 

[CMike]

It was changed to "adonai". Prior to this alteration it read YHVH. Google the 134 emendations of the sopherim.

The Torah doesn't change.

My lords, just refers to great ones. He was just honoring them.

Genesis - Chapter 18 (Parshah Vayeira) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Passage two says how he referred to them in the beginning..

2. And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.

Here is rash's commentary on the mission of these three angels.

and behold, three men: One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything”; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated: “And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

 

[CMike]

It was changed to "adonai". Prior to this alteration it read YHVH. Google the 134 emendations of the sopherim.

Alice in Wonderland.

 

[metis]

It was changed to "adonai". Prior to this alteration it read YHVH. Google the 134 emendations of the sopherim.

Only if you believe that source, which is quite nonsensical since it would be literally impossible for them to know it was changed even if we assume it was. Believe what you want, but the source you cite is more than highly questionable.

 

[james2ko]

Alice in Wonderland.

1. I can see the similarities. Based on their "strange" works, the Sopherim and the authors of AIW may have inhaled a little too much incense.

The Torah doesn't change.

2. That must be why they placed the alterations in fine print on the margins of the Tanakh.

Genesis - Chapter 18 (Parshah Vayeira) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Passage two says how he referred to them in the beginning..

2. And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.

Here is rash's commentary on the mission of these three angels.

and behold, three men: One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything”; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated: “And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

3. One may have been the deliver but prior to the changes made by the Sopherim, the older manuscripts indicate they were all addressed as YHVH. We can find a similar occurrence in Isa 7:14. The Masoretes changed "YHVH" to "adonai". An indication the more ancient manuscripts had the term "YHVH". This change was recorded in the margins of the Tanakh. But even more important is the DSS, which is much older than the MT, has the same term ("YHVH") as those ancient manuscripts! Proof positive the text was altered by the Masoretes!

lords, just refers to great ones. He was just honoring them.

4.

Gen 19:18 Then Lot said to them [plural], "Please, no, my lords [YHVH]!​

If they were just being honored, there should be no reason to alter the text. The Sopherim changed "YHVH", which they perceived could only apply to a single being, to the plural "adon", meaning YHVH can have a plural syntax.

Only if you believe that source, which is quite nonsensical since it would be literally impossible for them to know it was changed even if we assume it was. Believe what you want, but the source you cite is more than highly questionable.

5. The Sopherim kept a record of the changes in the margins of the text. I don't see how it would be "impossible" for anyone to eventually discover the "elephant in the room". Additionally, why would a Jew who became a Trinitarian (Ginsburg) desire to disclose the fact there may be more than three YHVH/Gods consequently undermining the foundational concept of his own Christian religion? On the other hand, if we ask why would the monotheistic Jewish Sopherim want to conceal the fact there may be more than one YHVH? The latter would make much more sense than the former.

 

[metis]

The Sopherim kept a record of the changes in the margins of the text. I don't see how it would be "impossible" for anyone to eventually discover the "elephant in the room". Additionally, why would a Jew who became a Trinitarian (Ginsburg) desire to disclose the fact there may be more than three YHVH/Gods consequently undermining the foundational concept of his own Christian religion? On the other hand, if we ask why would the monotheistic Jewish Sopherim want to conceal the fact there may be more than one YHVH? The latter would make much more sense than the former.

The "changes in the margins" are referred to as "midrashim", and they are commentaries-- not the original text itself.

 

[james2ko]

The "changes in the margins" are referred to as "midrashim", and they are commentaries-- not the original text itself.

That is correct and in those "commentaries" is the evidence of the changes made to the original text. And as you can see, the motive for the Sopherim to make those changes were much more logical than for Christians to disclose them.