Jesus' God ???

[metis]

That is correct and in those "commentaries" is the evidence of the changes made to the original text. And as you can see, the motive for the Sopherim to make those changes were much more logical than for Christians to disclose them.

First of all, exactly where does it say in any commentary that "Adonai" was changed to "Y**h"? It's far more likely, I would suggest, that maybe the commentary, even if it exists, either was giving praise by using the "Y**h" or may was making it clear that Adonai was referring to "Y**h" since "adonai" can be taken in different ways.

Could you please provide the exact wording of that commentary, plus provide a link in Hebrew to it?

 

[CMike]

That is correct and in those "commentaries" is the evidence of the changes made to the original text. And as you can see, the motive for the Sopherim to make those changes were much more logical than for Christians to disclose them.

Oy vey.

What?

There were no changes in the original text.

Commentators just clarify what passages mean.

 

[james2ko]

First of all, exactly where does it say in any commentary that "Adonai" was changed to "Y**h"?

No commentary is needed in the case of Isa 7:14. The much older DSS uses "YHVH". The MT uses "adonai". Interestingly, this also happens to be one of the verses noted as an emendation by the Masoretes in Ginsburg work. Even more interesting is the fact Ginsburg work was completed before the DSS were discovered!

It's far more likely, I would suggest, that maybe the commentary, even if it exists, either was giving praise by using the "Y**h" or may was making it clear that Adonai was referring to "Y**h" since "adonai" can be taken in different ways.

This contradicts the very fact the Masoretes revered the sacred name by minimizing its use.

Could you please provide the exact wording of that commentary, plus provide a link in Hebrew to it?

Oy vey.

What?

There were no changes in the original text.

Commentators just clarify what passages mean.

There were plenty. The alterations from the more ancient manuscripts are damaging to the basic "traditional" Christian concept of trinitarianism as well as monotheism. Here's a link to David Ginsburg work:

https://archive.org/details/MassorahMassorethMassoretic

 

[CMike]

There were no changes to the Torah, the five books of Moses nor the prophets and scriptures.

 

[metis]

No commentary is needed in the case of Isa 7:14. The much older DSS uses "YHVH". The MT uses "adonai". Interestingly, this also happens to be one of the verses noted as an emendation by the Masoretes in Ginsburg work. Even more interesting is the fact Ginsburg work was completed before the DSS were discovered!

Nonsense. The book of Isaiah was written in Hebrew, later translated into the Greek Septuagint, so it's the Hebrew that is more ancient. Also, verse 14 uses the name "Lord", which is "Adonai" in Hebrew, and is found in the oldest texts. Also, the DSS version is in Hebrew. See: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah

Seems like Ginsburg has an "agenda", and he's found some who seemingly will just swallow what he writes.

 

[Desert Snake]

There were no changes to the Torah, the five books of Moses nor the prophets and scriptures.

I agree, I think people are getting terms mixed up because of language translation.

 

[metis]

There were no changes to the Torah, the five books of Moses nor the prophets and scriptures.

And this was very much confirmed with the finding with the DSS, as there were very few errors after roughly 2000 years of copying, and these errors were very minor-- that's assuming that the DSS is more accurate than modern texts of course.

 

[james2ko]

There were no changes to the Torah,[/B] the five books of Moses nor the prophets and scriptures.

I agree, I think people are getting terms mixed up because of language translation.

"We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonai in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS and early editions read the Tetragrammaton". CD Ginsburg, The Massorah translated into English, Vol 6, pg 31 PDF version​

Nonsense. The book of Isaiah was written in Hebrew, later translated into the Greek Septuagint, so it's the Hebrew that is more ancient. Also, verse 14 uses the name "Lord", which is "Adonai" in Hebrew, and is found in the oldest texts. Also, the DSS version is in Hebrew. See: http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah

The Dead Sea Scrolls

Sorry Metis but the DSS--written in Hebrew-- and predates the MT by approximately 1,000 years, utilizes "YHVH" which Ginsburg disclosed 50+ years before the DSS were discovered. The fact is the Torah was changed and the Hebrew scholar who disclosed it had no real motive to do so other than a desire to convey truth even to his Christian religion's detriment. But as one could imagine, the Masoretes had all the motive in the world to conceal, deny, justify their changes.

Seems like Ginsburg has an "agenda", and he's found some who seemingly will just swallow what he writes.

By now, it should be quite obvious who were the ones with the agenda. And my people have swallowed the deception hook, line, and sinker for thousands of years!

 

[Desert Snake]

James, I don't know what your presenting, my agreement with CMike was about the unchanged texts, which I believe is the case, as the issue would seem to be interpretation, if we have some 'original' texts .

 

[Desert Snake]

Doesn't "Yeshua"/Jesus/ mean something similar to the original words?

 

[james2ko]

James, I don't know what your presenting, my agreement with CMike was about the unchanged texts, which I believe is the case, as the issue would seem to be interpretation, if we have some 'original' texts .

There is a huge difference between the interpretation of YHVH and adonai. According to Jewish thinking, YHVH can only be interpreted as representing one Supreme Spirit Being. Adonai can represent this same Supreme Being or any spirit or human being. When read in their context, the substitution of one term with another clouds this vital distinction. When all the facts are taken into consideration, the Masoretes had much more to lose by staying true to the more ancient text that would have destroyed their sacred belief of only One YHVH. So in 134 instances they took the liberty to change the more ancient YHVH to adonai. They justified the changes under the pretext His name was too sacred to be overly used.

 

[james2ko]

But, even Yeshua name, (Jesus), is a name relating to YHVH, right?

Yes. I believe He was the angel (malak/messenger) of YHVH who interacted with Israel in the OT. However, the angels [plural] who interacted with Abraham and Lot were also referred to as YHVH, according to the more ancient texts. This would mean there were multiple YHVH's and would severely put in question the Jew's monotheistic view. The Masoretes would have none of that so they altered some of the instances to adonai.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes. I believe He was the angel (malak/messenger) of YHVH who interacted with Israel in the OT. However, the angels [plural] who interacted with Abraham and Lot were also referred to as YHVH, according to the more ancient texts. This would mean there were multiple YHVH's and would severely put in question the Jew's monotheistic view. The Masoretes would have none of that so they altered some of the instances to adonai.

Something occurred to me as well, perhaps the Deity term before change means something like God and angels. Could be. And that might be a little confusing. I know that most of these terms are titles, everything points in that direction, one thing I don't agree with something I read is that 'adonai' can even apply to humans, ?? that's surprising, I have my doubts.

 

[rusra02]

Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

Luke 4:8, 16-21, John 17:3 and many other scriptures make clear that Jesus worshipped, obeyed,and prayed to Jehovah.

 

[james2ko]

Something occurred to me as well, perhaps the Deity term before change means something like God and angels. Could be. And that might be a little confusing. I know that most of these terms are titles, everything points in that direction,

That is my point. According to the most ancient texts, YHVH is a distributed title applying to more than one spirit entity. The subordination of these YHVH's does not detract from the authority assigned to them. The messengers are equivalent to the Presence of God and are thus referred to as YHVH Himself. Throughout the Tanach, we find evidence of the existence of One Supreme YHVH who reigns over other subordinate YHVH's or Yehovah's.

The NT makes plain one of these subordinate YHVH's was manifested into the person of Jesus Christ. Combined with the corroborating ancient Hebrew text created a major theological problem for the Masoretes of the 7-9th century AD motivating the emendations of the older text.

one thing I don't agree with something I read is that 'adonai' can even apply to humans, ?? that's surprising, I have my doubts.

Gen 24:17-18 And the servant ran to meet her and said, "Please let me drink a little water from your pitcher." 18 So she said, "Drink, my lord [adonai]." Then she quickly let her pitcher down to her hand, and gave him a drink.

2Sa 14:9 And the woman of Tekoa said to the king, "My lord [adonai], O king, let the iniquity be on me and on my father's house, and the king and his throne be guiltless."

1Ki 18:7 Now as Obadiah was on his way, suddenly Elijah met him; and he recognized him, and fell on his face, and said, "Is that you, my lord [adonai] Elijah?"

​

 

[Desert Snake]

Gen 24:17-18 And the servant ran to meet her and said, "Please let me drink a little water from your pitcher." 18 So she said, "Drink, my lord [adonai]." Then she quickly let her pitcher down to her hand, and gave him a drink.

2Sa 14:9 And the woman of Tekoa said to the king, "My lord [adonai], O king, let the iniquity be on me and on my father's house, and the king and his throne be guiltless."

1Ki 18:7 Now as Obadiah was on his way, suddenly Elijah met him; and he recognized him, and fell on his face, and said, "Is that you, my lord [adonai] Elijah?"


​

Ah, I see.
About the divinity of Yeshua, I am under the impression He was of the Holy Spirit, not God, and in fact that is still in accordance with trinity concept.

 

[james2ko]

Ah, I see. About the divinity of Yeshua, I am under the impression He was of the Holy Spirit, not God, and in fact that is still in accordance with trinity concept.

I believe the scriptures indicate the holy spirit is the supernatural power/force (not a person) which emanates from the Father, so in that sense yes, Christ was of the holy spirit. Besides the non-personification of the hs and the very fact the scriptures portray Christ as a subordinate created YHVH not only completely eliminates the co-eternal aspect of the trinity, but puts in question its existence.

 

[jtartar]

Does Jesus, Himself, in His spoken words, recognize/acknowledge/designate who His God is????

The Real Milk Man,
YES!!! John 20:17, John 6:57, Prov 23:22, Matt 3:17, John 17:3, John 14:28, Matt 7:21, John 14:30, John 17:6,26. God's personal Name or Proper Name is, in English, Jehovah. In most Bible when the titles lord and god are in Capitals, in the original writings the Name Jehovah was there. This name that Jesus made known, did not mean that he taught them first God's name, they knew God's name from infancy, but Jesus taught them what that NAME stood for, what it meant.
god's name Jehovah, in English, was represented, in Hebrew as Four letters, YHWH or JHVH, which was pronounced, as can be now determined, Jehovah in English, or Yahweh, maybe in Hebrew. The name Jehovah has been the accepted name for God for hundreds of years, as can be seen by many very old buildings and old coins having The NAME Jehovah on them.

 

[Muffled]

Which one? Abraham and Lot spoke to three of them.

I believe you are in error. There were three men, one of which spoke to Abraham as Yahweh.

There were two angels that came to Lot and it would make sense that the two ment coming to Abraham who were not God were those two angels.

 

[Muffled]

The Torah doesn't change.

My lords, just refers to great ones. He was just honoring them.

Genesis - Chapter 18 (Parshah Vayeira) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Passage two says how he referred to them in the beginning..

2. And he lifted his eyes and saw, and behold, three men were standing beside him, and he saw and he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and he prostrated himself to the ground.

Here is rash's commentary on the mission of these three angels.

and behold, three men: One to bring the news [of Isaac’s birth] to Sarah, and one to overturn Sodom, and one to heal Abraham, for one angel does not perform two errands (Gen. Rabbah 50:2). You should know that [this is true] because throughout the entire chapter, Scripture mentions them in the plural, e.g., (below verse 8): “and they ate” ; (ibid. verse 9): “and they said to him.” Concerning the announcement, however, it says (ibid. verse 10): “And he said: I will surely return to you.” And concerning the overturning of Sodom, it says (below 19:22): “For I will not be able to do anything”; (ibid. verse 21): “I will not overturn” (Gen. Rabbah 50:11). And Raphael, who healed Abraham, went from there to save Lot. This is what is stated: “And it came to pass when they took them outside, that he [the angel] said, ‘Flee for your life.’” You learn that only one acted as a deliverer.

I believe this has to be a mis-translation becuase if they were standing beside him he wouuldn't have had to run towards them.

Gen 18:2 and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, ASV

That also appears to be less than reasonable as a translation and was corrected to "opposite" in the NASV.