Jesus' God ???

[kjw47]

I used to think it was extremely important to fight against trinitarian beliefs, but it actually is much more important to embrace other believers and let God be the judge of beliefs.

"Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know." I Corinthians 8:2 NIV

"Out of the same mouth comes praising and cursing. My brothers this should not be." James 3:10 NIV

"The wind blows where it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit." John 3:8 NIV

0 born of the spirit--serve a false god.

 

[Desert Snake]

That is my point. According to the most ancient texts, YHVH is a distributed title applying to more than one spirit entity. The subordination of these YHVH's does not detract from the authority assigned to them. The messengers are equivalent to the Presence of God and are thus referred to as YHVH Himself. Throughout the Tanach, we find evidence of the existence of One Supreme YHVH who reigns over other subordinate YHVH's or Yehovah's.

The NT makes plain one of these subordinate YHVH's was manifested into the person of Jesus Christ. Combined with the corroborating ancient Hebrew text created a major theological problem for the Masoretes of the 7-9th century AD motivating the emendations of the older text.

That would indicate to me 'Oneness' concept, which I would agree with.

 

[james2ko]

That would indicate to me 'Oneness' concept, which I would agree with.

Sounds like a passing reference to Joh 10:30; "I and My Father are one." The Greek word translated "one" is "hen", which means "one in essence," and denotes spiritual unity and accord. If Jesus had intended to reveal that He and the Father were one and the same Being, the Greek word "heis" should have been inspired. Heis is the term which means "one in number" or "one and the same" (1Co 10:17, Eph 4:5-6).

 

[Desert Snake]

Sounds like a passing reference to Joh 10:30; "I and My Father are one." The Greek word translated "one" is "hen", which means "one in essence," and denotes spiritual unity and accord. If Jesus had intended to reveal that He and the Father were one and the same Being, the Greek word "heis" should have been inspired. Heis is the term which means "one in number" or "one and the same" (1Co 10:17, Eph 4:5-6).

So what are you saying then? If the plurality is of the same authority, we have Oneness basically.

 

[james2ko]

So what are you saying then? If the plurality is of the same authority, we have Oneness basically.

Two or more can be united in purpose, but unequal in age, rank, and authority:

Joh 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

Joh 13:16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him
​

 

[Desert Snake]

Two or more can be united in purpose, but unequal in age, rank, and authority:

Joh 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

Joh 13:16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him
​

This is human temporal form (Man Jesus), if I'm understanding you correctly, are we talking about multiple gods i.e. polytheism?

 

[james2ko]

This is human temporal form (Man Jesus), if I'm understanding you correctly, are we talking about multiple gods i.e. polytheism?

Jesus was less than Almighty God at every point of his existence (Mat 20:23; John 20:17; Mark 13:32; 1 Cor. 15:27-28; Rev. 3:2,12).

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus was less than Almighty God at every point of his existence (Mat 20:23; John 20:17; Mark 13:32; 1 Cor. 15:27-28; Rev. 3:2,12).

So, how would you describe this theological concept? It seems pretty standard if we accept Jesus divinity. You were talking about other deity figures, are they equal to Jesus according to you? Is Jesus the man the only Jesus to you, or is He deity as well?

 

[james2ko]

So, how would you describe this theological concept? It seems pretty standard if we accept Jesus divinity. You ere talking about other deity figures,

The only term my feeble mind can come up with is the "God Family". God the Father created a god He calls His son who in turn created a family of lesser gods/elohim/brothers made up of the angelic hosts and humans (Eph 3:14-15). God's plan is for all human beings to eventually have an opportunity to become a part of his deified family (Luk 3:6). But only if they subject themselves to His instruction.

are they equal to Jesus according to you?

No---Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Is Jesus the man the only Jesus to you, or is He deity as well?

He was both man and deity. But not simultaneously.

 

[Desert Snake]

The only term my feeble mind can come up with is the "God Family". God the Father created a god He calls His son who in turn created a family of lesser gods/elohim/brothers made up of the angelic hosts and humans (Eph 3:14-15). God's plan is for all human beings to eventually have an opportunity to become a part of his deified family (Luk 3:6). But only if they subject themselves to His instruction.



No---Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."



He was both man and deity. But not simultaneously.

I see. I think Scripture would indicate something like this, however for worship, the 'heirarchy' is always God, then angels etc. I think that Jesus IS God, hence plurality merged with singular in Title, but that is not common I guess, at least in the forums.
My take on it, basically, ..JHVH/Jesus-->angels etc.
I separate the man form of Jesus, as temporal manifestation in order to be among men, in that sense, at least in part, Jesus as man is not God, hence the sort of confusing array of titles that Jesus as man holds.

 

[james2ko]

I see. I think Scripture would indicate something like this, however for worship, the 'heirarchy' is always God, then angels etc. I think that Jesus IS God, hence plurality merged with singular in Title, but that is not common I guess, at least in the forums.
My take on it, basically, ..JHVH/Jesus-->angels etc.
I separate the man form of Jesus, as temporal manifestation in order to be among men, in that sense, at least in part, Jesus as man is not God, hence the sort of confusing array of titles that Jesus as man holds.

Sounds like an excellent description. For me, Jesus is a god worthy of worship but not The God. The Father is the King of the universe, Jesus the Prime Minister.

 

[kjw47]

The only term my feeble mind can come up with is the "God Family". God the Father created a god He calls His son who in turn created a family of lesser gods/elohim/brothers made up of the angelic hosts and humans (Eph 3:14-15). God's plan is for all human beings to eventually have an opportunity to become a part of his deified family (Luk 3:6). But only if they subject themselves to His instruction.



No---Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."



He was both man and deity. But not simultaneously.

A major translating error to fit Catholicism council false teachings = worship to Jesus.
Gods word teaches no angels deserve worship--correct--Gods word teaches--Jesus was made lower than the angels. a Mortal--not God in the flesh.

The greek word Proskenew( proskenaue)? has 4 meanings from greek to English---1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 2 others.

The Messiah( made lower than the angels) is Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)--thus obeisance is the correct usage of proskenaue for Gods appointed king --the Messiah. Not worship--it is misleading many away from the true God--Jesus' God and Father=Jehovah--only he gets worship.
John 4:24

 

[james2ko]

A major translating error to fit Catholicism council false teachings = worship to Jesus. Gods word teaches no angels deserve worship--correct--Gods word teaches--Jesus was made lower than the angels. a Mortal--not God in the flesh.

All this tells me is that Christ was no ordinary malak. Angels vary in rank. The lower ranking angel who appeared to John was not worthy of worship--The Prime Minister of the universe (Christ) is worthy of worship.

The greek word Proskenew( proskenaue)? has 4 meanings from greek to English---1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--plus 2 others. The Messiah( made lower than the angels) is Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)--thus obeisance is the correct usage of proskenaue for Gods appointed king --the Messiah. Not worship--it is misleading many away from the true God--Jesus' God and Father=Jehovah--only he gets worship. John 4:24

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP [proskuneo] THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND HIM ONLY YOU SHALL SERVE.' "​

When read carefully, Christ is not telling us The Father is the "only" one we should worship, but that The Father is the only One we should serve! The adjective "only" applies to serving not worship. So Jesus who is a God, can be worshiped [proskuneo], as so many passages indicate. BTW, I'm not sure how Joh 4:24 indicates The Father is the only One who receives worship.

 

[kjw47]

All this tells me is that Christ was no ordinary malak. Angels vary in rank. The lower ranking angel who appeared to John was not worthy of worship--The Prime Minister of the universe (Christ) is worthy of worship.

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP [proskuneo] THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND HIM ONLY YOU SHALL SERVE.' "​

When read carefully, Christ is not telling us The Father is the "only" one we should worship, but that The Father is the only One we should serve! The adjective "only" applies to serving not worship. So Jesus who is a God, can be worshiped [proskuneo], as so many passages indicate. BTW, I'm not sure how Joh 4:24 indicates The Father is the only One who receives worship.

--the Father = Jesus' God and Jesus will be in subjection forever after he hands back the kingdom-1Cor 15:24-28----Obesiance is the correct usage of that greek word for Jesus
The same problem at John 1:1--the only word in greek for God--god= Theos

In the beginning was the word( Logos) and the word was with Ho Theos, and the word was Theos---Ho Theos= The God--Theos = god---It did not call Jesus the God at John 1:1--otherwise the trinity teaching in the second line would be--God was with God---an impossibility--there is One God=Jehovah--Psalm 83:18

 

[james2ko]

--the Father = Jesus' God and Jesus will be in subjection forever after he hands back the kingdom-1Cor 15:24-28----
Obesiance is the correct usage of that greek word for Jesus

Obeisance is what the WT teaches is the correct usage. The Scriptures tell a different story. Unless you can point out a passage specifying Jesus' subjection to the Father negates his worship, I would have to go with all of the verses that state He can be worshiped.

The same problem at John 1:1--the only word in greek for God--god= Theos In the beginning was the word( Logos) and the word was with Ho Theos, and the word was Theos---Ho Theos= The God--Theos = god---It did not call Jesus the God at John 1:1--otherwise the trinity teaching in the second line would be--God was with God---an impossibility--there is One God=Jehovah--Psalm 83:18

I never said Jesus was "Ho Theos" [The God] but "a" God. Just as the WT teaches (you guys do have a few things right ). BTW-- I'm not a Trinitarian.

 

[kjw47]

Obeisance is what the WT teaches is the correct usage. The Scriptures tell a different story. Unless you can point out a passage specifying Jesus' subjection to the Father negates his worship, I would have to go with all of the verses that state He can be worshiped.



I never said Jesus was "Ho Theos" [The God] but "a" God. Just as the WT teaches (you guys do have a few things right ). BTW-- I'm not a Trinitarian.

Jesus was made lower than the angels--a mortal--0 worship.

 

[james2ko]

Jesus was made lower than the angels--a mortal--0 worship.

Yet several passages indicate He was worshiped even as a human being. Once again, unless you can point out a passage specifying Jesus' subjection to the Father negates his worship, I would have to go with all of the verses that state He can be worshiped.

 

[Desert Snake]

In the beginning was the word( Logos) and the word was with Ho Theos, and the word was Theos---Ho Theos= The God--Theos = god---It did not call Jesus the God at John 1:1--otherwise the trinity teaching in the second line would be--God was with God---an impossibility--there is One God=Jehovah--Psalm 83:18

This is saying that Jesus is God. Notice there isn't a separation here.

Jesus in man form isn't the Father, but 'God was with God does make sense, two manifestations, same being.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus was made lower than the angels--a mortal--0 worship.

Christians aren't worshipping the man aspect of Jesus, we worship the Deity aspect. It's a simple point but you seem to be missing it.

 

[kjw47]

Christians aren't worshipping the man aspect of Jesus, we worship the Deity aspect. It's a simple point but you seem to be missing it.

Gods power went through Jesus, he can do 0 without it( Acts 3:19)

Jesus taught you--last line-Lords prayer---The kingdom, power, and glory all belong to the Father.

Jesus was a mortal--he was not called Jesus before he came--

1Cor 15:24-28----- no diety is in subjection ever.