Jesus in Heaven is not God

[Soapy]

John 6-46: “No man has seen The Father, except he who is from God; he himself sees The Father.” ... The only one who has seen the Father is the one who has come from him; Son.

I would assume this means there is a chain of command, with Jesus seeing/reporting to God and humans by having seen Jesus, reporting to Jesus, who can then report to God. An underling in a big company does not just walk in on the CEO, but reports to his immediate supervisor, who then can report up the chain of command.

Another practical reason one can not report directly to God, is because God created the heaven and earth in six days and on the seventh day, God rested; Divine Sabbath rest. During the earth Sabbath, which is an image of the Divine Sabbath Day, ones is not supposed to conduct business but pray and rest with family. This would explain why only the Son saw God; he was family and it was still the Divine Sabbath.

God rested on the seventh day. There is nowhere in the New and Old Testament that says how long God rested or whether he is still resting. It says one day, but one heaven day may not be one earth day. The best clue that God rested during both the Old Testament and New Testament, is the after epic scale creation of the first 6 days; create the universe, sun, planets, life, animals, humans, etc., there is nothing as epic in the entire Bible, until late Revelations. Moses did some impressive miracles, but he did not create stuff like oceans or new planet. He was more about breaking things. But at the end of the Revelations, the old heavens and earth disappear, and God is back in business, making a new heavens and earth, from scratch.

Revelation 21: Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bridebeautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

This sort of make me thinks of a second Divine Sabbath, with God surrounded by the children of God.

And as a dig at Trinitarians - note that the new heavens and the new earth come from GOD - not from Jesus!

 

[Muffled]

And as a dig at Trinitarians - note that the new heavens and the new earth come from GOD - not from Jesus!

I believe that makes no difference other than the fact that Jesus isn't mentioned.

 

[Soapy]

I believe that makes no difference other than the fact that Jesus isn't mentioned.

It makes every difference.

Almighty God, the Father, brings in the new heaven and earth to replace the one He created originally.

Let’s say that since Trinitarians believe that it was ‘Jesus’ who created the first heaven and earth (which isn’t at all true!) then with God bringing in the new heaven and earth it would seem like God didn’t trust ‘Jesus’ to do it again - there was something wrong with the original which trinity ‘Jesus’ created:

• ‘For if there had been no fault with the first then there would be no need of a second!’
• ‘He takes away the first to establish a second’

I think you aren’t doing trinity ideology any favours here. You just destroyed the trinity ideology that ‘Jesus’ created the world and everything in it.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus returned from the death of his body on his own volition becuse the Son of God never died.

Jesus says of himself:

• “I am he who was dead, BUT AM NOW ALIVE forevermore”

You are suggesting Jesus never died…
YHWH by name who is God
Jesus by name who is Lord
God cannot, so you’re saying Jesus that lied…

 

[Muffled]

It makes every difference.

Almighty God, the Father, brings in the new heaven and earth to replace the one He created originally.

Let’s say that since Trinitarians believe that it was ‘Jesus’ who created the first heaven and earth (which isn’t at all true!) then with God bringing in the new heaven and earth it would seem like God didn’t trust ‘Jesus’ to do it again - there was something wrong with the original which trinity ‘Jesus’ created:

• ‘For if there had been no fault with the first then there would be no need of a second!’
• ‘He takes away the first to establish a second’

I think you aren’t doing trinity ideology any favours here. You just destroyed the trinity ideology that ‘Jesus’ created the world and everything in it.

I believe they would be wrong. Jesus wasn't born yet. It was God in Jesus who created everything.

I believe that is false. It may contradict a false view of the Trinity but the Trinity itself is still viable.

 

[Soapy]

I believe they would be wrong. Jesus wasn't born yet. It was God in Jesus who created everything.

‘God in Jesus…’ … ‘Creating everything’ (or even ‘Anything’!!…

God, who is The Father, is entitled as ‘the Father’ for a good reason.

And that reason is because ’Father’ means:

• “He that creates…”
• ‘He that brings into being…’
• ‘He that gives life…’

God is called ‘The Father’ because of it is

• He WHO CREATED the world
• He who brought the world and everything into being
• and He who gave it (and especially Man) life!

I believe that is false. It may contradict a false view of the Trinity but the Trinity itself is still viable.

I sense you are struggling trying to convince yourself that what you believe could ever be true.

One such alteration that leads to false belief is that Jesus ‘claimed that he came down from Heaven’. There is absolutely no VALID verse where Jesus is supposed to have made such a claim. Jesus only ever said, ‘I was sent by the Father’ which complies with the Old Testament verse in Isaiah where God said He would send his SERVANT,.. and the only SERVANTS God has in Heaven are HIS HOLY ANGELS… of which it is written: ‘To which of the angels did God ever say: ‘You are my Son’!!? In regard to Jesus ‘Coming’, it is said of his ‘Going to Heaven’ (note that there is no ‘GOING BACK’ to Heaven which would be the case if he came ‘FROM’ there:

• ‘No MAN has ever ASCENDED into Heaven except he that first DESCENDED [into the grave], namely, the Son of Man who is in Heaven’
• ‘No one has ascended who didn’t first descend - the man, Jesus Christ!’

All the text states the only one is A MAN… which, in the trinity false translation, claims the one who came from Heaven WAS A MAN!!!

A Man descended from Heaven… and a Man ascended BACK into Heaven… says Trinity. And you don’t think there’s anything wrong with that???

• “No man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” (John 3:13)

And note also that he who ascended into Heaven (Jesus Christ) is a MAN.

• “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.” (Matt 25:31)
• “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.” (Mark 13:26)

 

[Soapy]

I believe that makes no difference other than the fact that Jesus isn't mentioned.

It makes all the difference because it says that the new heaven and earth are from GOD… that He is making it/them new as he was the one who made the first:

• ‘For if there had been nothing wrong with the first there would be no need for a second’

Lucifer isn’t mentioned either. So he could also be the creator according to your thinking!!

But please show me a single instance, a verse, a reference, a claim, from the Old Testament where ‘Jesus’ is said to have made the world.

It is understandable that you should want to defend what you believe you were told in good faith (or otherwise??!!) but when you need to create false evidence to justify those claims it MUST OCCUR TO YOU that perhaps those beliefs ATE FALSE!!

And if you are pursuing falseness in the name of God and in the name of a Jesus Christ … well… I think that it is called “Grieving the spirit of God!”

Think about that before you reply!!!

 

[Muffled]

‘God in Jesus…’ … ‘Creating everything’ (or even ‘Anything’!!…

God, who is The Father, is entitled as ‘the Father’ for a good reason.

And that reason is because ’Father’ means:

• “He that creates…”
• ‘He that brings into being…’
• ‘He that gives life…’

God is called ‘The Father’ because of it is

• He WHO CREATED the world
• He who brought the world and everything into being
• and He who gave it (and especially Man) life!

I sense you are struggling trying to convince yourself that what you believe could ever be true.

One such alteration that leads to false belief is that Jesus ‘claimed that he came down from Heaven’. There is absolutely no VALID verse where Jesus is supposed to have made such a claim. Jesus only ever said, ‘I was sent by the Father’ which complies with the Old Testament verse in Isaiah where God said He would send his SERVANT,.. and the only SERVANTS God has in Heaven are HIS HOLY ANGELS… of which it is written: ‘To which of the angels did God ever say: ‘You are my Son’!!? In regard to Jesus ‘Coming’, it is said of his ‘Going to Heaven’ (note that there is no ‘GOING BACK’ to Heaven which would be the case if he came ‘FROM’ there:

• ‘No MAN has ever ASCENDED into Heaven except he that first DESCENDED [into the grave], namely, the Son of Man who is in Heaven’
• ‘No one has ascended who didn’t first descend - the man, Jesus Christ!’

All the text states the only one is A MAN… which, in the trinity false translation, claims the one who came from Heaven WAS A MAN!!!

A Man descended from Heaven… and a Man ascended BACK into Heaven… says Trinity. And you don’t think there’s anything wrong with that???

• “No man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” (John 3:13)

And note also that he who ascended into Heaven (Jesus Christ) is a MAN.

• “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.” (Matt 25:31)
• “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.” (Mark 13:26)

I believe your senses have betrayed you. I have no struggle but I believe you trip over the truth all the time.

I believe you are trying to make a point but it is so illogical that I can't imagine what it is.

 

[Soapy]

I believe your senses have betrayed you. I have no struggle but I believe you trip over the truth all the time.

I believe you are trying to make a point but it is so illogical that I can't imagine what it is.

That’s a way of denying the truth that is presented to you.

Does the scriptures not say that the one who came down from Heaven was

• THE MAN, JESUS CHRIST

Do the scriptures not say that the one who came down from Heaven and ascended into Heaven is

• The man, the son of man, Jesus Christ

Please let me know what you think about those verses.

 

[Muffled]

That’s a way of denying the truth that is presented to you.

Does the scriptures not say that the one who came down from Heaven was

• THE MAN, JESUS CHRIST

Do the scriptures not say that the one who came down from Heaven and ascended into Heaven is

• The man, the son of man, Jesus Christ

Please let me know what you think about those verses.

I believe it was not an ape nor was it a serpent person. However it was not an adult person that came down from Heaven since He was conceived in the womb so the logical explanation is that the Spirit of God came down in the person of Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

I believe it was not an ape nor was it a serpent person. However it was not an adult person that came down from Heaven since He was conceived in the womb so the logical explanation is that the Spirit of God came down in the person of Jesus.

Ha ha ha… you just got caught out!!! Ha ha ha ….!

 

[Muffled]

Ha ha ha… you just got caught out!!! Ha ha ha ….!

I believe he who laughs last laughs best.

 

[Soapy]

I believe he who laughs last laughs best.

Did Jesus ever laugh?

No! Laughter is 90% at the expense of grave errors and dilemmas made by the person being laughed at, which is exactly the case in which I was laughing…

The other 10% is a nervous psychological act brought on unconsciously - like someone with Turrets syndrome.

I do much desired for you to acknowledge and speak the truth.

But, anyway, …Moving on…!

 

[Brian2]

It’s often said by Trinitarians that Jesus was a man on earth but resumed being God when he was raised up to Heaven. In fact the saying is that Jesus went BACK to being in Heaven.

Well, there are no claims by Jesus, himself, that he came from Heaven, only that he was ‘Going to the Father’, which is not a ‘RETURNING’.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
John 6:62 "What if you [the disciples] were to see the Son of Man ascending where he was before?"

In addition, we know that ‘No one has seen the God at any time’ - which tallies with the last part of the previous quoted verse: 1 Tim 6:16, ‘… whom no one has seen or can see’.

Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.

 

[Yokefellow]

Can anyone, in sincere honesty and righteousness, still claim that Jesus is ‘God’?

Who, in your opinion, is the 'One' sitting on the Throne in this verse...

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

 

[Eli G]

Who, in your opinion, is the 'One' sitting on the Throne in this verse...

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

Good question for those who confuse God with Jesus...

The One seated on the throne is obviously not the Lamb, which took the scroll out of His right hand.

Rev. 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of the One seated on the throne a scroll written on both sides, sealed tight with seven seals. (...) 6 And I saw standing in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a lamb that seemed to have been slaughtered (...) 7 At once he came forward and took it out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne.

 

[Soapy]

Who, in your opinion, is the 'One' sitting on the Throne in this verse...

Revelation 4:2
"And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

The one seated on the throne in the vision is Almighty God: YHWH.

Later on we see Jesus, envisioned as a slaughtered lamb, approach the throne on which YHWH sat and take a scroll from the hand of YHWH. This tallies with the verse from Daniel wherein ‘One like a son of man’ [Jesus Christ] was brought before the Ancient of Days [Almighty God:YHWH]’.

Of course these are envisionment and symbolisms so it mustn’t be taken that John literally saw God’s hand

 

[Soapy]

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.
John 6:62 "What if you [the disciples] were to see the Son of Man ascending where he was before?"

Jesus did not say that hd had glory with God before the world existed. Jesus says that THE GLORY WAS WITH GOD and was AWAITING HIM.

The glory Jesus spoke of was to have conquered sin and for him to BECOME the Lord and Saviour.

Trinitarian translators corrupted the verse to make it seem that that Jesus ‘had glory with the Father …’ since it would make it convincing to their audience that Jesus was pre-existent. But that sounds silly and ridiculous against the background of Jesus’ life in subjection to the Father.

As a matter of clarity, then, what do you say was that ‘Glory’ that you are alluding to that Jesus had with the Father before the world existed?

Exodus 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.

Do you believe Jesus is not a liar?
Do you believe that Jesus and the apostles said that ‘No one has seen God AT ANY TIME’ and that ‘THE SON OF GOD HAS REVEALED HIM’?

Indeed, part of Jesus’ mission WAS EXACTLY THAT: To reveal the Father. To reveal God to the nations.

 

[Colt]

It’s often said by Trinitarians that Jesus was a man on earth but resumed being God when he was raised up to Heaven. In fact the saying is that Jesus went BACK to being in Heaven.

Well, there are no claims by Jesus, himself, that he came from Heaven, only that he was ‘Going to the Father’, which is not a ‘RETURNING’.

Moreover, any suggestion that Jesus ‘RESUMED’ being God on being raised up to Heaven is debunked by the fact that ‘GOD’ is still greater than he:

• “In the sight of God, who gives life to everything (and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession) I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. ” (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

Jesus Christ’s RETURN TO EARTH… will be when GOD decides it’s the right time.

Recall that Jesus, himself, said, when asked about his return:

• “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36)

which proves the Father as being ‘God’, as the two verses selections align perfectly.

In addition, we know that ‘No one has seen the God at any time’ - which tallies with the last part of the previous quoted verse: 1 Tim 6:16, ‘… whom no one has seen or can see’.

Can anyone, in sincere honesty and righteousness, still claim that Jesus is ‘God’?

Jesus in heaven is a Son of God, a divine being with power and authority who is creator of this world. He was with God in the beginning. He came down to earth and lived as a human while subject to the will of his Father. He revealed the Father to mankind then returned to his place in heaven. In heaven he is known as Christ Michael.



1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

 

[Yokefellow]

The one seated on the throne in the vision is Almighty God: YHWH.

Later on we see Jesus, envisioned as a slaughtered lamb, approach the throne on which YHWH sat and take a scroll from the hand of YHWH. This tallies with the verse from Daniel wherein ‘One like a son of man’ [Jesus Christ] was brought before the Ancient of Days [Almighty God:YHWH]’.

Of course these are envisionment and symbolisms so it mustn’t be taken that John literally saw God’s hand

Thanks, I appreciate the response. I would like to address some issues I have.

The One seated on the Throne cannot be God Almighty, or as I like to put it, God is his 'highest' form. This is because God Almighty in his highest form is a Consuming Fire...

Hebrews 12:29
"For our God is a consuming fire."

Obviously, the One sitting on the Throne is not a 'Consuming' Fire, otherwise everyone and everything would be destroyed.

Note that the Ancient of Days is still not a Consuming Fire, but a physical manifestation of it...

Daniel 7:9-10
"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."

As we can see in the above verse, the ones who are ministering are not consumed.

Moreover, God Almighty in his highest form is *invisible information*. We call said invisible information the Word of God. It is what manifests that which is physical...

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Obviously, the One sitting on the Throne is not invisible. He is being manifested into a physical form.

So, where is God Almighty the Invisible God? Where is this Consuming Fire? God Almighty exists *outside* of Space and Time. God Almighty exists *outside* of the New Heavens and New Earth in a higher realm or Dimension...

Zechariah 2:5
"For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her."

Notice the duality in the above verse? God is both inside New Jerusalem and outside of it.

Outside of a Universe, God is a nonmaterial Spirit (God as One). Inside of a Universe, God is material and physical (God as the Trinity).

New Jerusalem is a physical place. Therefore, God exists as the Trinity in the Throne Room.

1. One Sitting = Father (Abraham)
2. Slain Lamb = Word (Abraham's Seed)
3. Rainbow/Lighting = Holy Ghost

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Abraham is the Father of us all...

Romans 4:16
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"

Those in Christ become Abraham's Seed...

Galatians 3:29
"And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Therefore, the Lamb is the Seed in Abraham's loins...

1. Body = One sitting on the Throne
2. Soul = Slain Lamb/Seed/Genome/Blood
3. Spirit = Energy/Electromagnetism

They are three, yet they are One... as in One Father.

Note that New Jerusalem is Sarah, the Mother of us all. Thus, the Throne Room is the Groom waiting for the Bride.

Again, all of it is being manifested from a higher realm.

If we really wish to get technical, we could go over how the Godhead in the Bible is what we would call an Atom...

The Godhead is the *physical manifestation* of the *non-physical* Deity...

Strong's Greek: 2305. θειότης (theiotés) -- divinity, divine nature

biblehub.com

"deity manifested, i.e. the revelation of God (His attributes) which reveals Himself for people to know"

In summary, God is both One and a Trinity depending on whether we are viewing him from outside or inside his physical Creation.