Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible

[Breathe]

But eselam, that doesn't make much sense from the Bible's style.. From what I know of it anyway!

 

[Gharib]

But eselam, that doesn't make much sense from the Bible's style.. From what I know of it anyway!

what do you mean by that?

 

[Breathe]

what do you mean by that?

Well, Biblically speaking, it doesn't appear at all as though Gabriel would be the Holy Spirit at all.
In Luke, Gabriel is sent to Mary in Nazareth. It says "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee," and then later on, "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." - this implies it wasn't Gabriel in my eyes.

I need to find out, what on earth does "the power of the Most High will overshadow you" mean??

 

[Gharib]

Well, Biblically speaking, it doesn't appear at all as though Gabriel would be the Holy Spirit at all.
In Luke, Gabriel is sent to Mary in Nazareth. It says "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee," and then later on, "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." - this implies it wasn't Gabriel in my eyes.

I need to find out, what on earth does "the power of the Most High will overshadow you" mean??

no i think the bible tells that differently.
i will have to get the post of another member made in another thread and post it here, i think he quoted from the bible the part about mary and the holy ghost.

i'll just be a minute or two.

EDIT: this stupid thing does not let me post the post so i'm doing it here

Originaly Posted by Sola'lor
While doing some research on the Quran I came across this:

Sura 19:16-22 (Emphasis Added)
16 And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
17 And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.
18 She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing.
19 He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
20 She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
21 He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.
22 And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.

Could it be that this is describing the event here in the Bible we only get this:

Luke 1:35 (Emphasis Added)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

We only get that the Holy Ghost would come upon Mary. But the Quran verse describes what happened when God sent His Spirit("Our Spirit" in the above verse. I would imagine Our Spirit being pretty specific to the Holy Ghost).

But then again Sura 19 is similar to Luke 1 and the "Our Spirit" could just be another angel.

actually it kind of looks the same as what you said.

 

[Fatihah]

Luke researched his sources. Since there is information that is of a highly personal nature to Mary, it would be safe to believe that he received his information from Mary. I don't know how you can get more authentic than that.

Response: How exactly do you conclude that he has gotten his informatiom from Mary?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Well, Biblically speaking, it doesn't appear at all as though Gabriel would be the Holy Spirit at all.
In Luke, Gabriel is sent to Mary in Nazareth. It says "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee," and then later on, "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." - this implies it wasn't Gabriel in my eyes.

I need to find out, what on earth does "the power of the Most High will overshadow you" mean??

Gabriel is an Angel in Christianity AND in Islam...
One of the tennets of Islam is belief in Angels

non belief in angels= cant be a muslim:tribal2:

 

[Mr Cheese]

to odion, the quran reffers to Gabriel (as) as the holy spirit, just as menj has already said. in a verse of chapter 2 Allah (swt) states that we enforced Jesus (as) the son of Mary with the holy spirit, reffereing to Gabriel (as)

Being as it was gabriel that appeared to Mohammed

Is it shocking that Gabriel is reffered to as Holy Spirit in the Islamic tradition?

 

[Mr Cheese]

My money would be on his followers, not on some upstart that arrived 600 years after the fact, but hey... that's just me. :flirt:

As a Gnostic my money would be on neither....
although some of the Islamic accounts are similar or the same as Gnostic ones....

I find it interesting that Christ is said to return at the end of days, in Islamic understanding...

...

Of course this is just another lame thread to show the "superiority" of Islam

Quite pathetic really

 

[Breathe]

Gabriel is an Angel in Christianity AND in Islam...
One of the tennets of Islam is belief in Angels

non belief in angels= cant be a muslim:tribal2:

I know that.
But that's not what I said.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I need to find out, what on earth does "the power of the Most High will overshadow you" mean??

You seem smart, isnt it obvious?

 

[Breathe]

You seem smart, isnt it obvious?

Seem smart, it's only an illusion!
I'm still a bit unsure of this. Poetic imagery for being overwhelmed with the presence of God? It sounds like an idiom, but I'd prefer to hear what it could be from someone with knowledge of Biblical Hebrew or Ancient Aramaic if possible.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Seem smart, it's only an illusion!
I'm still a bit unsure of this. Poetic imagery for being overwhelmed with the presence of God? It sounds like an idiom, but I'd prefer to hear what it could be from someone with knowledge of Biblical Hebrew or Ancient Aramaic if possible.

ha ha....

I would guess it would be akin to being overcome by the presence, the shekinah ...
although I suspect you know this already...

essentially the same as the idea of the fear of God .....
Such inner experience is/can be scary...!!!

tremble tremble...!

 

[Breathe]

Oooh, I never thought about connecting it to the Shekinah (though I don't really understand what Shekinah or the Holy Spirit actually is!)
I suppose such an intimate experience with God would be extremely scary for most of us, even if God is benevolent and holds us in high regards!!

 

[Mr Cheese]

think of the shekinah as one of the ways God manifests. God is God, but in order for us to perceive it, it manifests in many ways.

For example the classic is water, steam and ice. All are water.

There are many ideas abotu what the Shekinah is, she is seen in many ways, often called a she.

She is the divine breath
She is the dove that appeared at christ's bpatism and before noah after the flood
She is who Abraham came before, changing his name from Abram to Abraham, the H signifying the Shekinah (YHVH)

Perhaps you should start a thread on this subject, for people to give their ideas

 

[Breathe]

Hmmm, that's the thing, I don't like the idea of a separate personage for the Holy Spirit or anything like that. I didn't know Shekinah is the H in YHWH though, that's pretty cool.

I flirted with the idea before that the Holy Spirit is Shekinah (as many probably believe), but that Shekinah is the survival of the pagan goddess Asherah, the wife of YHWH (iirc). Little basis for it, but cute! Maybe I should start a thread, yeah. Instead of derailing this one.

 

[gnostic]

Judging by the way Genesis 6:1-7, angels (sons of God) visited upon mortal women and sired children upon them. These children were known as the Nephilim.

Later Hebrew literature, expanded upon these short verse in Genesis, such as the Haggada, Book of Enoch and Book of Jubilees, where such children from angels were abomination to God.

If Gabriel was the father of Jesus, then wouldn't Jesus be considered to recycling the same abomination, which God rid with the Flood?

 

[Gharib]

Being as it was gabriel that appeared to Mohammed

Is it shocking that Gabriel is reffered to as Holy Spirit in the Islamic tradition?

why is that?

it is reffered to gabriel as being the holy ghost in christianity right?

 

[gnostic]

why is that?

it is reffered to gabriel as being the holy ghost in christianity right?

In Christian teaching, no. Gabriel is an angel, possibly high in the hierarchy, but still an angel.

The way I understand it, the Holy Spirit is God himself. It is the God's own spirit.

The closest thing anyone can get to God is God's spirit, ie Holy Spirit. You don't get direct contact with him.

Here is an example.

Imagine that there is the curtain that separate God's world, and you in your physical world. The curtain is not transparent, but the curtain is not completely opaque. You could see the faint outline of the God standing behind that curtain. The outline is the Holy Spirit of God. No one get to see the true image of God.

I don't know if know the kabbalah teaching of the 10 aspects or emanations of God. There are ten layers to God, and the only aspect that any prophet can achieve, is to see the outer layer, which they called Shekinah, which is God's divine presence. The Holy Spirit is much like Shekinah, and it is the only manifestation that the prophet get to see.

According to the Mormons, when you're praying, and you felt the warm sensation in your body, and you believe your prayer being answer, to the Mormons that the divine presence that you feel; the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, in the rare time that I have prayed during my troubled and confused late teen, I didn't feel any warmth; had no vision, sudden enlightenment or revelation. I felt nothing.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Cheese
Being as it was gabriel that appeared to Mohammed

Is it shocking that Gabriel is reffered to as Holy Spirit in the Islamic tradition?

why is that?

it is reffered to gabriel as being the holy ghost in christianity right?

Why is that, because Gabriel appears to Mohammed and begins Islam, correct?

Gabriel, acts as a messenger, the word Angel means messenger.
In Christianity, the Arch Angel Gabriel is seen to act as a messenger. Not the father of Jesus.

Although there is one tradition that think Jesus was actually the Arch angel Michael

 

[Gharib]

Why is that, because Gabriel appears to Mohammed and begins Islam, correct?

no he apperas to Adam (as) after he is brough to earth, thats when islam begins.

but Gabriel (as) is the messenger of Allah (swt) to the prophets. anything Allah (swt) wanted to say to the prophets it was done through Gabriel (as) who also is the teacher of Muhammed (saws)

Gabriel, acts as a messenger, the word Angel means messenger.

but i doubt the word Malaikah means messenger.

In Christianity, the Arch Angel Gabriel is seen to act as a messenger. Not the father of Jesus.

no thats wrong, gabriel is reffered to as the holy spirit in christianity, well it deppends on what part of christianity or sect you believe, if you believe that the trinity is just one being then yes you would believe that the holy spirit is god. but it is gabriel insted. and it is of no surprise, due to the bible being the word of Allah (swt) , that the holy spirit is gabriel as mentioned in the quran. and it may very well be in the torah as well.

Although there is one tradition that think Jesus was actually the Arch angel Michael

never heard that before.