Jesus insisted that he had lived in heaven before being born as a human

[Eli G]

So how do you account for the fact that God was alone before He create the angels and then human Beings as sentient, intelligent, spirited beings? (...)

I think you have not yet paid attention to the biblical information that is being shared on this topic.

Do you have anything to rectify to Jesus about what he said on his pre-existence, like this for example?

John 6:38 (...) I have come down from heaven [καταβέβηκα ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ] (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before [ἀναβαίνοντα ὅπου ἦν τὸ πρότερον]?

 

[Soapy]

I think you have not yet paid attention to the biblical information that is being shared on this topic.

Do you have anything to rectify to Jesus about what he said on his pre-existence, like this for example?

John 6:38 (...) I have come down from heaven [καταβέβηκα ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ] (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before [ἀναβαίνοντα ὅπου ἦν τὸ πρότερον]?

Oh boy… !!

Jesus did not say that he came down from Heaven. This fallacy has been gone through several times in this forum alone.

Jesus said that he came from God… God sent him to testify about God… about the Father.

This term, ‘Came from Heaven’ is either of two mal- and mis- Translated terms DESIGNED BY TRINITARIAN translators under the orders of the Trinitarian churches in a vain attempt to solidify their ideology that Jesus was pre-existent WITH GOD (think about that for a while!!!) before the creation of the world … and then that it was JESUS who created the world and all things in it.

This miscreant ideology then idealised that since the Torah says that ‘God created all things …’ and they say that Jesus created all things.. THEN JESUS MUST BE GOD!!!

But it was quickly pointed out that since Jesus, himself, says that he can do nothing except what he sees the Father doing first, then it must be that the Father FIRST created a world - which was then destroyed - and the Son then created another.

But you know that is all nonsense… So now they say that ‘The Father created all things THROUGH THE SON…’ despite verses saying:

• “You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.” (Rev 4:11)

Jesus never ever laid claim to be the creator of anything. He said many things about himself but this was not even slightly nor hintingly one of them in any way!

Don’t you see that it’s a developing, an evolving, a reprehensible belief that turns on a sixpence???

Jesus spoke truly to his Heavenly Father in prayer, sayjng:

• ‘[Father…] This means eternal life that they should believe in You, THE ONLY TRUE GOD…’

How do you now say that Jesus IS GOD or similar since GOD was alone before he created the angels and mankind as sentient beings?

You’ve yet to make any inroads into where and how your Jesus pre-existed … apart from those awful verses turned by trinity to mislead, if it could, those of the congregation of God.., and innocent little ones in scriptural spiritual belief!!!

‘Woe!! Woe!!’ The Bible says, ‘Woe until him who misleads the little ones….’ And ‘Woe unto those who are leaders!’ since the flock fills where you lead and you have been given great authority to lead them… Lead them true, then, for calamity befalls the leaders who mislead!!!

Again… ‘Came from Heaven’ is mistranslated from ‘Came from God’… ‘GOD SENT ME’…!!!

And he did not say ‘What if you see the son of man ascend to where he was before!!’…

Read read read… read and understand…. ‘THE SON OF MAN…’…. A ‘Human Being’ is what ‘Son of man’ means.

What do you say: The the Son of man, a human Being, was in Heaven before coming AS A MAN???

Jesus ASCENDS into Heaven because GOD RAISED HIM UP [to Heaven]… and then, when all his work is done, he returns… the SON OF MAN coming with the clouds!!!

But, to test your theory… Show me a verse where Jesus is in Heaven before God created all things!

 

[Eli G]

Oh boy… !!
...

Still not saying anything about the things Jesus said? Things like this?

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

Was Jesus imagining things?

 

[Trailblazer]

So how do you account for the fact that God was alone before He create the angels and then human Beings as sentient, intelligent, spirited beings?

• ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.’ (Gen 1:1)

Does ‘alone’ mean ‘With The Son … alone, by Himself’?

I believe that God was alone in the beginning, without a Son, and that is what the Baha'i scriptures say.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 150-151

I am not suggesting that Jesus existed 'from the beginning.' I only believe that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before the body of Jesus was born into this world. That is what pre-existent means to me.

And also, God foreknew the messiah before the creation of the world… does this mean that the Son was pre-existent? Of course not!!

The fact that God foreknew the messiah before the creation of the world does not mean that the Son was pre-existent.
God could have foreknown the messiah before the creation of the world even if He was not pre-existent, but I believe that the soul of Jesus was pre-existent. That can be contrasted with the souls of all other ordinary human beings that were not pree-existent, since they came into existence at the time of conception.

But if it’s suggested, nay, STATED and believed that he was pre-existent … then what if this verse:

• ‘For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love’ (Eph 1:4)

Does that verse STATE that those chosen by God were pre-existent WITH GOD before the creation of the world?

No, and I am not suggesting that God's chosen ones were pre-existent WITH GOD before the creation of the world.
I only believe that their souls pre-existed in the spiritual world at some point in time before their bodies were born into this world.

And where does scripture tell us other than in Ephesians 1:4?

Nowhere that I know about.

Isn’t it simply that a foreknowledge is similar if not exactly like a PROPHESY OF a person, thing, event, or time when something will certainly occur?

Similar to Abraham receiving FOREKNOWLEDGE about one his distance offspring BEING THE MESSIAH… and he was glad to forsee that day when the messiah was to come into fruition?

Yes, God's foreknowledge is similar but not exactly like a PROPHESY OF a person, thing, event, or time when something will certainly occur.
God has perfect foreknowledge, so God knows everything that will happen in the future, but the he Prophets only knew of specific things that were going to happen in the future, what God had revealed to them about happenings in the future.

 

[Eli G]

The theory that Jesus was just a plan in the mind of God before been born as human is already more than refuted by Jesus himself.

Every time the inspired Scriptures speak of the pre-human life of Jesus, they declare that he was "at God's side" not inside his mind. In fact, Jesus prayed to his Father saying:

John 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Jesus clearly and very well remembers the glory he had when he was at the Father's side and that's why he asks to be granted again.

 

[dybmh]

since you have not provided any evidence that it really is as you say

It's written in the Psalms of King David. I think it's Psalm 139.

... to twist what Jesus Christ said ...

I feel exactly the same way about the implication that the son of Mary pre-existed in fleshy body. That is what you're asserting in this thread? In your mind, there is a fleshy Jesus at the "side" of God?

παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ __ by the side of the Father

Eli, which word in the Greek above are you translating as "side"?

 

[Eli G]

... the implication that the son of Mary pre-existed in fleshy body. That is what you're asserting in this thread? In your mind, there is a fleshy Jesus at the "side" of God?...

I guess you didn't read this post of mine.

At least two forum members on this topic have attempted to deny that Jesus was a real person in heaven before he was born as a human. It is evident that not all who call themselves "Christians" believe the things that Jesus said about himself.

John 6:38 for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (...) 62 What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?

Perhaps they are confused because they have not meditated on the fact that the heavens are full of life, beings in spirit form that were created long before human beings on this planet. These beings are sons of God long before Adam when he was created.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth? (...) 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

The names of two of them are mentioned in the Bible: Michael and Gabriel. So there is no doubt that all those millions of children of God in heaven each have a personal name and their own identity (2 Chron. 18:18-22; Job 1:6; 2:1; Dan. 7:9,10; Psal. 103:20).

When one has learned that reality, then it is not difficult to understand why Jesus taught that he came from the heavenly realms.

John 8:23 He went on to say to them: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.

 

[Soapy]

Still not saying anything about the things Jesus said? Things like this?

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

Was Jesus imagining things?

What are you talking about?

Abraham was given foresight that one of his offspring WOULD BE the messiah.

That is a FUTURE EVENT!!! Many hundreds if not a thousands of years in the future.

And Jesus DID NOT SAY that he was BEFORE Abraham in terms of TIME…..!!

‘BEFORE’ means ‘GREATER THAN’…

It’s the sand with John the Baptist where he says that the one to come is greater than he… because he was BEFORE HIM!!

I’m going to presume that your first language is not English and therefore the nuances have passed you by.

There are THREE episodes of ‘BEFORE’ (at least) which give the examples of meaning ‘GREATER THAN’. You made a point of one, and I showed you another. The third one is where God says:

• ‘You must have no other God BEFORE ME!’

Can you not see that God is saying that the Jews must not take to themselves another ‘God’ who is ‘GREATER THAN’ He??!

But in actual fact, the claim of ‘Before Abraham, I am’ MAKES NO SENSE… is a nonsense, … is not even sensible.

The trinitarian take on this is that Jesus is saying:

• ‘Before Abraham, God’ …???!???

You know very well that even so, GOD’s NAME is NOT ‘I AM’…!!

God’s NAME is ‘YHWH’….

‘I Am’ is JUST THE MEANING of THE NAME, ‘YHWH’.

What is the MEANING of YOUR NAME?
Does anyone call you by the MEANING of your name?

Does anyone say to apostle Peter, ‘Hey, Stone, weren’t you with that upstart prophet, Jesus of Nazareth?’

Oh, and it’s a silly point to claim that Jesus ‘SAW’ Abraham… What the Jews meant was that 50 years old was when it was considered that a man was a scholar and could talk about Torah … If wasn’t about ‘SEEING with the eye’ or ‘Knowing with the heart’ BUT RATHER, ‘Understanding of SCHOLARLY matters’.

Do you really think that any of those Jews SAW ABRAHAM because they were over 50 years old…

Man, why are you caught up in ridiculous impossible nonsense?

 

[Eli G]

What are you talking about?...

I am talking about the dialog Jesus had with the Jews here:

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If you understand English language correctly, then you may know what this means:

Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.

The original Greek wording is:

πρὶν __ Before
Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι __ Abraham came to exist
ἐγὼ εἰμί. __ I am

An easy to understand translation of that would be: I DO EXIST BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN.

An interesting question is:
if you had been there, would you have believed him, or would you have acted like the Jews who heard him make that strange statement?

John 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

 

[Eli G]

1. πρίν [see πρό; cf. Lat. pri-or] adv., prepic and conjunc.

① adv. of time first, earlier, previously Il. 18.283, al. Od. 2.198, al. etc.; πρίν μιν καὶ γῆρας ἔπεισιν before old age even touches her Il. 1.29; ᾗσιν τὸ πρὶν ἐκέκαστο in which he formerly gloried Il. 5.54 | τὸ πρίν first, formerly Il. 5.54, al. etc.; Πέρσας δὲ δούλους ἐόντας τὸ πρὶν Μήδων νῦν γεγονέναι δεσπότας the Persians who were once the slaves of the Medes have now become their masters Hdt. 1.129.4 | in attributive position: τέρεα ἔτι μέζονα τοῦ πρὶν γενομένου τέρεος prodigies yet bigger than those that happened earlier Hdt. 8.37.2; ἐν τῷ πρὶν χρόνῳ in the past Soph. Ph. 1224; ἐν τοῖς πρὶν λόγοις in the preceding discourses Thuc. 2.62.1
‖ ▶ with subj. and opt. first, before: πρὶν καὶ κακὸν ἄλλο πάθῃσθα before you must suffer some other evil too Il. 24.551; πρίν κεν πατρίδα γαῖαν ἵκοιο before you can return to your homeland Od. 3.117; πρίν κεν νὺξ φθῖτο before night was over Od. 11.330

② ▶ s.times prepic with gen. before Ios. B.I. 1.6.1 (121) etc.; πρὶν ὥρας first in time Pind. P. 4.43, πρὶν φάους before dawn Arr. An. 3.18.6

③ usu. temp. conjunc. before, esp. with other conjunc. or with adv.: πρίν … ἤ before, until; πρὶν γʼ ὅτε until when; πρὶν or πάρος or πρόσθεν or πρότερον … πρίν before
ⓐ ▶ with ind. for a real event before, until: ἐπὶ ἶσα μάχη τέτατο πτόλεμός τε, πρὶν γʼ ὅτε δὴ Ζεὺς κῦδος ὑπέρτερον Ἕκτορι δῶκε the melee and the battle were equal, until Zeus granted greater glory to Hektor Il. 12.437; οὐ γὰρ δὴ πρότερον ἀπανέστη ἐκ τῶν χωρέων τουτέων Μαρδόνιος πρὶν ἤ σφεας ὑποχειρίους ἐποιήσατο and Mardonius did not leave that land until he had subjugated its inhabit. Hdt. 6.45.1; ἐθαύμαζον …, πρίν τινες ἰδόντες εἶπον ὅτι they were amazed, until some witnesses reported that Thuc. 1.51.2; οὐκ ἔδοσαν ὁμήρους πρὶν αὐτῶν εἷλον κώμην they did not give hostages until they had taken one of their villages Thuc. 3.101.2; οὐκ ἐδύναντο σχεῖν τὸ ῥεῦμα πρὶν ἐλιποψύχησε they could not stop the hemorrhage before he fainted Xen. Hel. 5.4.58
ⓑ ▶ with subj. for a possible action, s.times with ἄν or κε before, except that, unless: οὐ γάρ πω καταδυσόμεθʼ, ἀχνύμενοί περ, εἰς Ἀΐδαο δόμους, πρὶν μόρσιμον ἦμαρ ἐπέλθῃ since, worn down as we are, we will not go down to the house of Hades before the appointed day arrives Od. 10.175; οὔ κώ σε ἐγὼ λέγω, πρὶν τελευτήσαντα καλῶς τὸν αἰῶνα πύθωμαι I will not answer you, until I come to know whether your life has ended happily Hdt. 1.32.5; φράσῃς μοι μὴ πέρα, πρὶν ἂν μάθω πρῶτον τόδʼ(ε) do not say any more until I have understood this Soph. Ph. 332; οὔπω θέμις σοι τῆσδε προσφωνημάτων κλύειν, πρὶν ἄν … ἀφαγνίσηται it is not yet lawful for you to hear her words until she has been purified Eur. Alc. 1145; οὐ προυθυμήθησαν ξυμπλεῖν πρὶν τὰ Ἴσθμια, ἃ τότε ἦν, διεορτάσωσιν they preferred not to put to sea until they had celebrated the Isthmian games, that fell in that period of time Thuc. 8.9.1; μὴ πρότερον αὑτὸν ἀποκτιννύναι δεῖν, πρὶν ἀνάγκην τινὰ θεὸς ἐπιπέμψῃ there is no need to kill oneself until the god sends a command to do so Plat. Phaed. 62c
ⓒ ▶ with oblique opt. (without ἄν), in dependence on historic tenses or by attraction: οὐκ ἐθέλεσκες … πάσασθαι, πρὶν γʼ ὅτε δή σʼ ἐπʼ ἐμοῖσιν ἐγὼ γούνεσσι καθίσσας ὄψου τʼ ἄσαιμι you were not willing to eat, unless I tasted the flesh first, balancing you on my knees Il. 9.488; οὐκ ἔθελεν φεύγειν πρὶν πειρήσαιτʼ Ἀχιλῆος he was not willing to flee without measuring himself against Achilles Il. 21.580; ἀπηγόρευε μηδένα βάλλειν, πρὶν Κῦρος ἐμπλησθείη θηρῶν he forbade anyone to shoot until Cyrus had had his fill of hunting Xen. Cyr. 1.4.14; μὴ σταίη … ὄχημα ναὸς αὐτῷ πρὶν τάνδε πρὸς πόλιν ἀνύσειε his ship will not stop until he has reached this city Soph. Tr. 657
ⓓ ▶ with inf.: οὐδέ τις ἔτλη πρὶν πιέειν, πρὶν λεῖψαι ὑπερμενέϊ Κρονίωνι no one dared to drink until having been pledged by the mighty son of Kronos Il. 7.481; μὴ πρόσθε κλέος εὐρὺ φόνου κατὰ ἄστυ γένηται …, πρὶν γʼ ἡμέας ἐλθέμεν ἔξω so that the widespread rumor of slaughter may not spread throughout the city until we have come out Od. 23.138; σπεύδωμεν … πρὶν ἡμέραν γενέσθαι let us hurry, before day breaks Aristoph. Ve. 245; εἰμὶ γάρ … σοὶ πάλαι φίλος πρὶν ἰδεῖν from the time that I have been your friend, since before I saw you Men. Dysc. 616; ἐνιαυτὸς μὲν οὐ διετρίβη, ἔλασσον δέ, πρὶν ἐσβαλεῖν ἐς τὴν Ἀττικήν a year had not passed, but less than that, before they invaded Attica Thuc. 1.125.2; οὐ βουλόμενος … διαγωνίσασθαι πρίν οἱ … τοὺς βοηθοὺς ἥκειν being unwilling to initiate battle until their reinforcements had arrived Thuc. 5.10.3; ἀφίεσαν τὰ βέλη πολὺ πρὶν ἐξικνεῖσθαι they launched their weapons long before (they) were in range Xen. Cyr. 3.3.60; ἀποθνῄσκουσι πρότερον πρὶν δῆλοι γενέσθαι οἷοι ἦσαν they die before having been able to show their quality Xen. Cyr. 5.2.9; μὴ ἀπιέναι πρὶν ἀφοσιώσασθαι that I should not leave before having fulfilled my religious duty Plat. Phaed. 61a.

The Brill dictionary of Ancient Greek (GE) (some editing of mine for easy reading).

 

[Soapy]

I am talking about the dialog Jesus had with the Jews here:

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If you understand English language correctly, then you may know what this means:

Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.

The original Greek wording is:

πρὶν __ Before
Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι __ Abraham came to exist
ἐγὼ εἰμί. __ I am

An easy to understand translation of that would be: I DO EXIST BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS BORN.

An interesting question is:
if you had been there, would you have believed him, or would you have acted like the Jews who heard him make that strange statement?

John 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid and went out of the temple.

No, you are absolutely wrong!!!

Jesus is saying that he IS GREATER THAN Abraham. As simply as that: ‘Even Abraham foresaw my day and was glad…’

Abraham foresaw that one of his offspring would be the messiah… and it greatly pleased him.

The messiah is OBVIOUSLY greater than Abraham. Abraham was ‘a friend’ to God… but a friend IS NOT AS GREAT AS A DUTIFUL SON!!

I really do feel sorry for ones like yourself when you finally come to realise your grave errors!!! Your embarrassment will be like the churches that claimed that the earth was the centre of the universe and even the Sun revolves around it… Hiw did they feel when Copernicus and Galileo PROVED they were wrong and those churches had to admit their error!!!????

I won’t be joyful to at your embarrassment but only sad that it took you so long to get to the joyful point of learning the truth. But ‘there is merriment in heaven over every sheep TK allows itself to be led to the sheepfold of God!’…
Allow yourself to bd such a sheep and join the truth!!!

 

[Eli G]

No, you are absolutely wrong!!!

Jesus is saying that he IS GREATER THAN Abraham. ...

Maybe you know some ancient Greek that nobody else knows where πρὶν means "greater".

1. πρίν [see πρό; cf. Lat. pri-or] adv., prepic and conjunc.

① adv. of time first, earlier, previously Il. 18.283, al. Od. 2.198, al. etc.; πρίν μιν καὶ γῆρας ἔπεισιν before old age even touches her Il. 1.29; ᾗσιν τὸ πρὶν ἐκέκαστο in which he formerly gloried Il. 5.54 | τὸ πρίν first, formerly Il. 5.54, al. etc.; Πέρσας δὲ δούλους ἐόντας τὸ πρὶν Μήδων νῦν γεγονέναι δεσπότας the Persians who were once the slaves of the Medes have now become their masters Hdt. 1.129.4 | in attributive position: τέρεα ἔτι μέζονα τοῦ πρὶν γενομένου τέρεος prodigies yet bigger than those that happened earlier Hdt. 8.37.2; ἐν τῷ πρὶν χρόνῳ in the past Soph. Ph. 1224; ἐν τοῖς πρὶν λόγοις in the preceding discourses Thuc. 2.62.1
‖ ▶ with subj. and opt. first, before: πρὶν καὶ κακὸν ἄλλο πάθῃσθα before you must suffer some other evil too Il. 24.551; πρίν κεν πατρίδα γαῖαν ἵκοιο before you can return to your homeland Od. 3.117; πρίν κεν νὺξ φθῖτο before night was over Od. 11.330

② ▶ s.times prepic with gen. before Ios. B.I. 1.6.1 (121) etc.; πρὶν ὥρας first in time Pind. P. 4.43, πρὶν φάους before dawn Arr. An. 3.18.6

③ usu. temp. conjunc. before, esp. with other conjunc. or with adv.: πρίν … ἤ before, until; πρὶν γʼ ὅτε until when; πρὶν or πάρος or πρόσθεν or πρότερον … πρίν before
ⓐ ▶ with ind. for a real event before, until: ἐπὶ ἶσα μάχη τέτατο πτόλεμός τε, πρὶν γʼ ὅτε δὴ Ζεὺς κῦδος ὑπέρτερον Ἕκτορι δῶκε the melee and the battle were equal, until Zeus granted greater glory to Hektor Il. 12.437; οὐ γὰρ δὴ πρότερον ἀπανέστη ἐκ τῶν χωρέων τουτέων Μαρδόνιος πρὶν ἤ σφεας ὑποχειρίους ἐποιήσατο and Mardonius did not leave that land until he had subjugated its inhabit. Hdt. 6.45.1; ἐθαύμαζον …, πρίν τινες ἰδόντες εἶπον ὅτι they were amazed, until some witnesses reported that Thuc. 1.51.2; οὐκ ἔδοσαν ὁμήρους πρὶν αὐτῶν εἷλον κώμην they did not give hostages until they had taken one of their villages Thuc. 3.101.2; οὐκ ἐδύναντο σχεῖν τὸ ῥεῦμα πρὶν ἐλιποψύχησε they could not stop the hemorrhage before he fainted Xen. Hel. 5.4.58
ⓑ ▶ with subj. for a possible action, s.times with ἄν or κε before, except that, unless: οὐ γάρ πω καταδυσόμεθʼ, ἀχνύμενοί περ, εἰς Ἀΐδαο δόμους, πρὶν μόρσιμον ἦμαρ ἐπέλθῃ since, worn down as we are, we will not go down to the house of Hades before the appointed day arrives Od. 10.175; οὔ κώ σε ἐγὼ λέγω, πρὶν τελευτήσαντα καλῶς τὸν αἰῶνα πύθωμαι I will not answer you, until I come to know whether your life has ended happily Hdt. 1.32.5; φράσῃς μοι μὴ πέρα, πρὶν ἂν μάθω πρῶτον τόδʼ(ε) do not say any more until I have understood this Soph. Ph. 332; οὔπω θέμις σοι τῆσδε προσφωνημάτων κλύειν, πρὶν ἄν … ἀφαγνίσηται it is not yet lawful for you to hear her words until she has been purified Eur. Alc. 1145; οὐ προυθυμήθησαν ξυμπλεῖν πρὶν τὰ Ἴσθμια, ἃ τότε ἦν, διεορτάσωσιν they preferred not to put to sea until they had celebrated the Isthmian games, that fell in that period of time Thuc. 8.9.1; μὴ πρότερον αὑτὸν ἀποκτιννύναι δεῖν, πρὶν ἀνάγκην τινὰ θεὸς ἐπιπέμψῃ there is no need to kill oneself until the god sends a command to do so Plat. Phaed. 62c
ⓒ ▶ with oblique opt. (without ἄν), in dependence on historic tenses or by attraction: οὐκ ἐθέλεσκες … πάσασθαι, πρὶν γʼ ὅτε δή σʼ ἐπʼ ἐμοῖσιν ἐγὼ γούνεσσι καθίσσας ὄψου τʼ ἄσαιμι you were not willing to eat, unless I tasted the flesh first, balancing you on my knees Il. 9.488; οὐκ ἔθελεν φεύγειν πρὶν πειρήσαιτʼ Ἀχιλῆος he was not willing to flee without measuring himself against Achilles Il. 21.580; ἀπηγόρευε μηδένα βάλλειν, πρὶν Κῦρος ἐμπλησθείη θηρῶν he forbade anyone to shoot until Cyrus had had his fill of hunting Xen. Cyr. 1.4.14; μὴ σταίη … ὄχημα ναὸς αὐτῷ πρὶν τάνδε πρὸς πόλιν ἀνύσειε his ship will not stop until he has reached this city Soph. Tr. 657
ⓓ ▶ with inf.: οὐδέ τις ἔτλη πρὶν πιέειν, πρὶν λεῖψαι ὑπερμενέϊ Κρονίωνι no one dared to drink until having been pledged by the mighty son of Kronos Il. 7.481; μὴ πρόσθε κλέος εὐρὺ φόνου κατὰ ἄστυ γένηται …, πρὶν γʼ ἡμέας ἐλθέμεν ἔξω so that the widespread rumor of slaughter may not spread throughout the city until we have come out Od. 23.138; σπεύδωμεν … πρὶν ἡμέραν γενέσθαι let us hurry, before day breaks Aristoph. Ve. 245; εἰμὶ γάρ … σοὶ πάλαι φίλος πρὶν ἰδεῖν from the time that I have been your friend, since before I saw you Men. Dysc. 616; ἐνιαυτὸς μὲν οὐ διετρίβη, ἔλασσον δέ, πρὶν ἐσβαλεῖν ἐς τὴν Ἀττικήν a year had not passed, but less than that, before they invaded Attica Thuc. 1.125.2; οὐ βουλόμενος … διαγωνίσασθαι πρίν οἱ … τοὺς βοηθοὺς ἥκειν being unwilling to initiate battle until their reinforcements had arrived Thuc. 5.10.3; ἀφίεσαν τὰ βέλη πολὺ πρὶν ἐξικνεῖσθαι they launched their weapons long before (they) were in range Xen. Cyr. 3.3.60; ἀποθνῄσκουσι πρότερον πρὶν δῆλοι γενέσθαι οἷοι ἦσαν they die before having been able to show their quality Xen. Cyr. 5.2.9; μὴ ἀπιέναι πρὶν ἀφοσιώσασθαι that I should not leave before having fulfilled my religious duty Plat. Phaed. 61a.

The Brill dictionary of Ancient Greek (GE) (some editing of mine for easy reading).

 

[Soapy]

1. πρίν [see πρό; cf. Lat. pri-or] adv., prepic and conjunc.

① adv. of time first, earlier, previously Il. 18.283, al. Od. 2.198, al. etc.; πρίν μιν καὶ γῆρας ἔπεισιν before old age even touches her Il. 1.29; ᾗσιν τὸ πρὶν ἐκέκαστο in which he formerly gloried Il. 5.54 | τὸ πρίν first, formerly Il. 5.54, al. etc.; Πέρσας δὲ δούλους ἐόντας τὸ πρὶν Μήδων νῦν γεγονέναι δεσπότας the Persians who were once the slaves of the Medes have now become their masters Hdt. 1.129.4 | in attributive position: τέρεα ἔτι μέζονα τοῦ πρὶν γενομένου τέρεος prodigies yet bigger than those that happened earlier Hdt. 8.37.2; ἐν τῷ πρὶν χρόνῳ in the past Soph. Ph. 1224; ἐν τοῖς πρὶν λόγοις in the preceding discourses Thuc. 2.62.1
‖ ▶ with subj. and opt. first, before: πρὶν καὶ κακὸν ἄλλο πάθῃσθα before you must suffer some other evil too Il. 24.551; πρίν κεν πατρίδα γαῖαν ἵκοιο before you can return to your homeland Od. 3.117; πρίν κεν νὺξ φθῖτο before night was over Od. 11.330

② ▶ s.times prepic with gen. before Ios. B.I. 1.6.1 (121) etc.; πρὶν ὥρας first in time Pind. P. 4.43, πρὶν φάους before dawn Arr. An. 3.18.6

③ usu. temp. conjunc. before, esp. with other conjunc. or with adv.: πρίν … ἤ before, until; πρὶν γʼ ὅτε until when; πρὶν or πάρος or πρόσθεν or πρότερον … πρίν before
ⓐ ▶ with ind. for a real event before, until: ἐπὶ ἶσα μάχη τέτατο πτόλεμός τε, πρὶν γʼ ὅτε δὴ Ζεὺς κῦδος ὑπέρτερον Ἕκτορι δῶκε the melee and the battle were equal, until Zeus granted greater glory to Hektor Il. 12.437; οὐ γὰρ δὴ πρότερον ἀπανέστη ἐκ τῶν χωρέων τουτέων Μαρδόνιος πρὶν ἤ σφεας ὑποχειρίους ἐποιήσατο and Mardonius did not leave that land until he had subjugated its inhabit. Hdt. 6.45.1; ἐθαύμαζον …, πρίν τινες ἰδόντες εἶπον ὅτι they were amazed, until some witnesses reported that Thuc. 1.51.2; οὐκ ἔδοσαν ὁμήρους πρὶν αὐτῶν εἷλον κώμην they did not give hostages until they had taken one of their villages Thuc. 3.101.2; οὐκ ἐδύναντο σχεῖν τὸ ῥεῦμα πρὶν ἐλιποψύχησε they could not stop the hemorrhage before he fainted Xen. Hel. 5.4.58
ⓑ ▶ with subj. for a possible action, s.times with ἄν or κε before, except that, unless: οὐ γάρ πω καταδυσόμεθʼ, ἀχνύμενοί περ, εἰς Ἀΐδαο δόμους, πρὶν μόρσιμον ἦμαρ ἐπέλθῃ since, worn down as we are, we will not go down to the house of Hades before the appointed day arrives Od. 10.175; οὔ κώ σε ἐγὼ λέγω, πρὶν τελευτήσαντα καλῶς τὸν αἰῶνα πύθωμαι I will not answer you, until I come to know whether your life has ended happily Hdt. 1.32.5; φράσῃς μοι μὴ πέρα, πρὶν ἂν μάθω πρῶτον τόδʼ(ε) do not say any more until I have understood this Soph. Ph. 332; οὔπω θέμις σοι τῆσδε προσφωνημάτων κλύειν, πρὶν ἄν … ἀφαγνίσηται it is not yet lawful for you to hear her words until she has been purified Eur. Alc. 1145; οὐ προυθυμήθησαν ξυμπλεῖν πρὶν τὰ Ἴσθμια, ἃ τότε ἦν, διεορτάσωσιν they preferred not to put to sea until they had celebrated the Isthmian games, that fell in that period of time Thuc. 8.9.1; μὴ πρότερον αὑτὸν ἀποκτιννύναι δεῖν, πρὶν ἀνάγκην τινὰ θεὸς ἐπιπέμψῃ there is no need to kill oneself until the god sends a command to do so Plat. Phaed. 62c
ⓒ ▶ with oblique opt. (without ἄν), in dependence on historic tenses or by attraction: οὐκ ἐθέλεσκες … πάσασθαι, πρὶν γʼ ὅτε δή σʼ ἐπʼ ἐμοῖσιν ἐγὼ γούνεσσι καθίσσας ὄψου τʼ ἄσαιμι you were not willing to eat, unless I tasted the flesh first, balancing you on my knees Il. 9.488; οὐκ ἔθελεν φεύγειν πρὶν πειρήσαιτʼ Ἀχιλῆος he was not willing to flee without measuring himself against Achilles Il. 21.580; ἀπηγόρευε μηδένα βάλλειν, πρὶν Κῦρος ἐμπλησθείη θηρῶν he forbade anyone to shoot until Cyrus had had his fill of hunting Xen. Cyr. 1.4.14; μὴ σταίη … ὄχημα ναὸς αὐτῷ πρὶν τάνδε πρὸς πόλιν ἀνύσειε his ship will not stop until he has reached this city Soph. Tr. 657
ⓓ ▶ with inf.: οὐδέ τις ἔτλη πρὶν πιέειν, πρὶν λεῖψαι ὑπερμενέϊ Κρονίωνι no one dared to drink until having been pledged by the mighty son of Kronos Il. 7.481; μὴ πρόσθε κλέος εὐρὺ φόνου κατὰ ἄστυ γένηται …, πρὶν γʼ ἡμέας ἐλθέμεν ἔξω so that the widespread rumor of slaughter may not spread throughout the city until we have come out Od. 23.138; σπεύδωμεν … πρὶν ἡμέραν γενέσθαι let us hurry, before day breaks Aristoph. Ve. 245; εἰμὶ γάρ … σοὶ πάλαι φίλος πρὶν ἰδεῖν from the time that I have been your friend, since before I saw you Men. Dysc. 616; ἐνιαυτὸς μὲν οὐ διετρίβη, ἔλασσον δέ, πρὶν ἐσβαλεῖν ἐς τὴν Ἀττικήν a year had not passed, but less than that, before they invaded Attica Thuc. 1.125.2; οὐ βουλόμενος … διαγωνίσασθαι πρίν οἱ … τοὺς βοηθοὺς ἥκειν being unwilling to initiate battle until their reinforcements had arrived Thuc. 5.10.3; ἀφίεσαν τὰ βέλη πολὺ πρὶν ἐξικνεῖσθαι they launched their weapons long before (they) were in range Xen. Cyr. 3.3.60; ἀποθνῄσκουσι πρότερον πρὶν δῆλοι γενέσθαι οἷοι ἦσαν they die before having been able to show their quality Xen. Cyr. 5.2.9; μὴ ἀπιέναι πρὶν ἀφοσιώσασθαι that I should not leave before having fulfilled my religious duty Plat. Phaed. 61a.

The Brill dictionary of Ancient Greek (GE) (some editing of mine for easy reading).

You are wasting your time and effort…

It is simply one thing by context. ‘Truly Abraham was great, but I am greater… Abraham even foresaw the coming Christ, which is me, and was glad that he is one of his offspring!’.

‘Greater than Abraham, I am’.

The Jews were so incensed that this young man should claim a greatness over their renowned forefather that they picked up stones to stone him… but he escaped them and went on his way!

 

[Eli G]

You are wasting your time and effort…

Am I?

I guess I can't help you understand what Jesus taught if you don't want to.

I'll share it with my other readers anyway.

Phil. 2:5 (...) Christ Jesus, 6 (...) was existing in God’s form (...) 7 (...) but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form (...)

Interesting what Paul taught about Jesus, isn't it?

 

[Soapy]

Maybe you know some ancient Greek that nobody else knows where πρὶν means "greater".

Keep searching the depth of the Pacific … you won’t find what you are looking due since it was with you all the time …

Jesus simply says, ‘Yes, I am greater than Abraham… Abraham foresaw the coming day of the messiah WHO WOULD BE GREATER THAN HE… greater than the great faith that he had and was applauded by God, Himself, my day, and was glad!’

God would SEND Jesus … God sent Jesus after He anointed Jesus WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT SND WITH POWER and then TESTED HIM in the wilderness… then God set him his task to announce the kingdom of God:

• ‘This day, that prophesy has been fulfilled in me!’ Says Jesus Christ from the pulpit on the first Sabbath day after returning from the great test in the wilderness.

 

[Eli G]

It's Ok
... you have no need to get upset; You have every right not to believe what Jesus said, or what other Christians learned about Jesus' pre-existence and then passed on to us in their writings. Many people don't either.

But I do. When John speaks of the Logos of God, who was at God's side and then became flesh, he is clear about this. The Bible repeats it in several ways so that there is no doubt:

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

Phil. 2:7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 2:14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil

It's not about you, so relax. It's about what is said about Jesus in Scripture.

 

[Soapy]

Am I?

I guess I can't help you understand what Jesus taught if you don't want to.

I'll share it with my other readers anyway.

Phil. 2:5 (...) Christ Jesus, 6 (...) was existing in God’s form (...) 7 (...) but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form (...)

Interesting what Paul taught about Jesus, isn't it?

You are trying to teach me what jests DID NOT SAY…

Now you start a different nonsense about THE FORM OF GOD…

God does not have a FORM!

God is SPIRIT!!! Spirit does not have a FORM.

Angels are CREATED ENTITIES OF SPIRITS…

God is not created so HAS NO FORM.

Notice the difference:

1. God IS SPIRIT
2. An Angel IS A SPIRIT
3. A Man is A SPIRIT in a BODY of Flesh

Jesus, on appearing miraculously in the licked upper room, said to Thomas, ‘Touch me… See that I am (??!) NOT A SPIRIT!! A Spirit does not have flesh and bond as you see I have!’.

Was Jesus saying to Thomas: ‘I Am God’?
Or was he saying, ‘Thomas, I AM a Man! A human Being, like you and any man’?

 

[Eli G]

The theory that Jesus was just a plan in the mind of God before been born as human is already more than refuted by Jesus himself.

Every time the inspired Scriptures speak of the pre-human life of Jesus, they declare that he was "at God's side" not inside his mind. In fact, Jesus prayed to his Father saying:

John 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

Jesus clearly and very well remembers the glory he had when he was at the Father's side and that's why he asks to be granted again.

When Jesus talks about having been "at the side of" God, the preposition he uses is παρά.
After saying that he had finished his mission to glorify Him on earth, he goes on to say:

John 17:5

καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, __ So now glorify me, you, Father,
παρὰ σεαυτῷ __ at your side
τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον __ with the glory that I had
πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι __ before the world was
παρὰ σοί. __ alongside you.

Anyone who consults a Greek dictionary will know that this preposition παρά, accompanied by a dative complement, refers to: a position near another location or object, usually with the implication of being alongside or close to (Low-Nida).

Take it easy @Soapy

 

[Soapy]

It's Ok
... you have no need to get upset; You have every right not to believe what Jesus said, or what other Christians learned about Jesus' pre-existence and then passed on to us in their writings. Many people don't either.

But I do. When John speaks of the Logos of God, who was at God's side and then became flesh, he is clear about this. The Bible repeats it in several ways so that there is no doubt:

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

Phil. 2:7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human.

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 2:14 Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly shared in the same things, so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil

It's not about you, so relax. It's about what is said about Jesus in Scripture.

Where does any scriptures say that the logos was at God’s side????

And GOD SPOKE the world into being:

• ‘Let there be light….!’

And it was so.

When someone’s word BECOMES FLESH it means that the word spoken COMES TO FRUITION.

It TAKES ON FLESH… or Puts on Flesh… Becomes flesh.. To put flesh on the bones of my words:
These are well known idioms…

 

[Soapy]

When Jesus talks about having been "at the side of" God, the preposition he uses is παρά.
After saying that he had finished his mission to glorify Him on earth, he goes on to say:

John 17:5

καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, __ So now glorify me, you, Father,
παρὰ σεαυτῷ __ at your side
τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον __ with the glory that I had
πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι __ before the world was
παρὰ σοί. __ alongside you.

Anyone who consults a Greek dictionary will know that this preposition παρά, accompanied by a dative complement, refers to: a position near another location or object, usually with the implication of being alongside or close to (Low-Nida).

Take it easy @Soapy

You are thrashing… Caught in a trap you laid for yourself.

Best for you to stop - it’s clear that the truth has overwhelmed you!!

The glory of Jesus was that he was prophesied to conquer sin and give his life for the sake of mankind. Now Jesus was on the cusp of achieving that aim!

‘Beside me there is no God’.

Again, where does scriptures say that Jesus was at God’s side before the creation?

Certainly Jesus was at God’s right hand side AFTER Jesus was raised up to Heaven… but before creation….! Please show scriptures!