Jesus insisted that he had lived in heaven before being born as a human

[Eli G]

...A human Being, like you and any man’?

No @Soapy Jesus was evidently NOT LIKE ANY OTHER MAN. Everybody knows that.
He didn't have a biological father to start.

 

[Soapy]

No @Soapy Jesus was evidently NOT LIKE ANY OTHER MAN. Everybody knows that.
He didn't have a biological father to start.

Adam……!
Jesus, the SECOND ADAM… and the Last Adam…

Adam was created by the Spirit of God… same as Jesus.

But by the flesh he was just as any other man.

Before he was anointed, Jesus DID NOTHING of a miraculous nature. It was the holy Spirit dwelling in Jesus that allowed him to perform the miracles, just as the apostles did after they received the holy Spirit from God.

Why are you presenting such elementary and naive posts????

 

[Eli G]

Well, @Soapy , Adam was created from the soil, but Jesus "emptied himself" and he was born by birth from within the womb of a woman. So, although they were both perfect humans, they are different.

Jesus came from heaven; his Father sent him to come INTO THIS WORLD:

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world.

... or in Jesus' own words:

John 6:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18 Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world, but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For whoever practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his works may not be reproved. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that his works may be made manifest as having been done in harmony with God.

 

[Soapy]

Well, @Soapy , Adam was created from the soil, but Jesus "emptied himself" and he was born by birth from within the womb of a woman. So, although they were both perfect humans, they are different.

THE FLESH IS NOTHING…
Whether THE BODY of Adam was created from inert ‘dust of the earth’ or THE BODY of Jesus was create from inert ‘Egg of a woman’, the analogy is exactly the same.

The egg of a female is INERT until it is activated by the LIVING SPERM of a man. ‘Dust’ of the earth merely means ‘Chemical elements’… The egg is ALSO just chemical elements…

Every ‘BODY’ that BECOMES LIVING is activated by a SPIRIT.

In BOTH CASES, it was GOD who placed the LIVING SPIRIT into the ‘BODY’ of both Adam and Jesus.

This is tantamount to a CREATION - which is different to a PRO-CREATION in which the living Spirit is from the male parent. And you rightly point out that NEITHER Adam nor Jesus had A MALE PARENT!!

Yet you tried to claim ‘there was a difference’???!!! Isn’t that desperate of you…

Do you really think that such a naive claim could pass me by?

And what does that say about you for attempting such basic errors of understanding and then trying to claim against the truth? Do you not know it’s a grave sin to ‘Grieve the Spirit of truth’?

Jesus came from heaven; his Father sent him to come INTO THIS WORLD:

‘The Father SENT HIM…’ from Heaven.. where does scripture show and tell you that?

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to every sort of man was about to come into the world.

... or in Jesus' own words:

John 6:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.

Eli…. Being “SENT INTO THE WORLD’ just means ‘Being made to face SIN, ADVERSITY, OPPOSITION TO TRUTH, PUNISHMENT, PAIN, SUFFERING, and DEATH’.

After Jesus finished his assignment he said in prayer:

• ‘I am no longer in the world… but they are…’

Jesus was still alive ‘in the world’… but it means that he no longer was subject to those things I pointed out. He was IMMUNE to them BUT HIS DISCIPLES still were. He would yet still be flogged, tortured, and killed… but those things had NO HOLD ON HIM from thence forward… but the disciples were….!!

18 Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judgment: that the light has come into the world, but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For whoever practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, so that his works may not be reproved. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that his works may be made manifest as having been done in harmony with God.

Eli, ‘LIGHT’ and ‘DARKNESS’ represent ‘TRUTH’ and ‘FALLACY (or Lies)’.

The TRUTH came into the world and everyone exercising belief in THE TRUTH will be saved…

Wow, man… wake up… Stop being one of the those who are in DARKNESS!!!

So You have your scriptures badly wrong.

You have listened to and are sticking to trinitarian indoctrination which ATTEMPTS to claim a pre existent Jesus but which does not exist in any reality of truth (it may be a ‘reality’ to ideologists of an untrue belief!).

God ‘sent’ Jesus Christ AFTER empowering him with Holy Spirit and Power: Acts 10: 37-38 and Luke 4:19 & 21 tells it as it is:

• “37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointedJesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.”
• “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” … He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

What can be clearer?
What do those verses tell You?

From your reading, WHEN did God send Jesus to and where in scriptures do you say this occurred?

I’m reckoning you cannot answer from the perspective of a pre-existence SINCE THERE WAS NO SUCH THING.

The verse claiming that Jesus EMPTIED himself is a nonsense since Trinitarians claim that jesus was STILL GOD AFTER he emptied himself…. What????

And moreover, GOD is IMMUTABLE. What does that mean to you, what is immutable, to you?

What actually the verse means is that, THOUGH Jesus was endowed with THE POWER OF GOD (Holy Spirit…) Jesus DID NOT use nor abuse that status to promote himself or set himself above others BUT INSTEAD LOWERED HIMSELF to become A SERVANT TO MAN…

You might wonder what it ever could mean to ‘Empty’ oneself means. Well, nos you know it is yet another mistranslation which should actually be ‘LOWERED’…. Now it makes sense, eh!!!

‘Though he had the power of God he didn’t think to make himself EQUAL to God BUT INSTEAD… madd himself of no repute and subject to the law [of man] even unto death’. He said to Pontius Pilate: ‘You have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.’ (John 19:11). This shows that God gave Pilate the power over Jesus to sentence him.

I’m ashamed of ones like yourselves who completely believe in the miscreant ideology. But hopeful that one day you can come to understand the truth - and believe it, for the sake of the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eli G]

Calm down, @Soapy . I am not Trinitarian.

There is no need to be a Trinitarian to recognize that Jesus existed in heaven before he was born. Only he was not equal to God and furthermore he had an origin, when he was created or begotten as the Only Begotten Son and Firstborn of God.

If you have a problem with Trinitarians, do not project it onto me or any other Jehovah's Witnesses. We believe in Jesus' pre-existence, but we are not trinitarians.

 

[Soapy]

Calm down, @Soapy . I am not Trinitarian.

There is no need to be a Trinitarian to recognize that Jesus existed in heaven before he was born. Only he was not equal to God and furthermore he had an origin, when he was created or begotten as the Only Begotten Son and Firstborn of God.

If you have a problem with Trinitarians, do not project it onto me or any other Jehovah's Witnesses. We believe in Jesus' pre-existence, but we are not trinitarians.

I added sone tings just before/after you posted.

Passion for the truth - and seeing such totally naive fallacy fuels me… Yes, I shouldn’t let ones like you who are tempting ANGER from a truth speaker, get to me!

But I am trying to show you how wrong you are - that you need to come out of the darkness and into the light of truth and righteousness.

But if you keep repeating the same old fallacy that the churches teach, whether Christian trinitarian, or sone other pre-existent Jesus gibberish, then you only have two people to blame at the judgement seat:

1. Yourself
2. Those who misled you with their fallacious idolatrous beliefs

‘First-Born’ (or ‘FirstBorn’) of God means:

• ‘The one that God loved THE MOST’

It has nothing to do with ‘First Born’, which is a CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER OR BIRTH.

Jesus had an origin… yes… in the body of the Virgin Mary after God blew the breath of life into the egg in her body. Certainly, THE MESSIAH was PROPHESIED from before the creation… just as many of God’s chosen people were ‘CHOSEN FRON BEFORE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD’… what do you say? go figure!!!!

But where does YOUR belief come from that Jesus had a ‘pre-existent’ creation??

 

[Eli G]

@Soapy Apparently you are used to insulting other believers, but I will forgive you, because I think you are just trying to attack something that you believe is not true. That is why I am sharing with you the sayings of Jesus himself, so that you believe him, not me.

John 7:33 Jesus then said: “I will be with you a little while longer before I go (ὑπάγω) to the One who sent me.
...16:5 But now I am going (ὑπάγω) to the One who sent me; yet not one of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’

That Greek Verb in red is πέμπω; NO: ἀποστέλλω. Notice also that Jesus says that he is going (ὑπάγω) to where the One who sent him is.

 

[Soapy]

@Soapy Apparently you are used to insulting other believers, but I will forgive you, because I think you are just trying to attack something that you believe is not true. That is why I am sharing with you the sayings of Jesus himself, so that you believe him, not me.

John 7:33 Jesus then said: “I will be with you a little while longer before I go (ὑπάγω) to the One who sent me.
...16:5 But now I am going (ὑπάγω) to the One who sent me; yet not one of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’

That Greek Verb in red is πέμπω; NO: ἀποστέλλω. Notice also that Jesus says that he is going (ὑπάγω) to where the One who sent him is.

What are you trying to say now???

I have always said that God sent Jesus… What are you meaning? I’ve written it, and scriptures tells it, many many times… GOD SENT Jesus to do His Will, to bring the testimony of God to man, to heal the dick, comfort the widows, and bring salvation to mankind. And this ‘Sending’ was stated by Jesus: ‘Luke 4: 19 & 21. And Acts 10:37-38.

When you read these verses, what do you have to say??

Before the SENDING, Jesus did NOTHING of note… after the sending, 30 years after his birth, Jesus was sent and did what he was SENT to do…

Jesus was TAUGHT BY GOD in those 30 years, but was only SENT ON HIS MISSION after being ANOINTED TO CARRY OUT THAT TASK.

A child may be BORN TO BE KING… but he is NOT KING until he is CORONATED… a Coronation is like an Anointment. After the coronation the now king, can exercise all the powers that come with being king!!!

‘But even though he was a king, he humbled himself to be as a servant to his subject, even subjecting himself to the law, and be executed for the sake of his people, whom He who is GREATER than the king, designated for him!’ (Anecdotal).

And insulting? If us you who are insulting yourself by presenting these fallacious claims. I may be PASSIONATE … but passion is not an insult? It is you who wants to take it that way as many (if not all trinity (and the likes) do when they find out the truth. They claim the truth sayer is insulting them so as to hope the truth sayer backs off… You aren’t the first.

Jesus, himself, often told the truth which others were INSULTED BY….!! Yes, my man, the truth very often INSULTS the demonised intelligence if the wrong thinker…

Why don’t you also quote where Jesus says that he is ‘GOING TO THE FATHER’ … Jesus doesn’t say that he is going ‘BACK TO’ the Father, does he? But you won’t quote that verse, will you??!

And, when Jesus is RAISED UP TO HEAVEN by GOD… if is GOD who SEATS him at His right hand seat… The SEAT OF HONOUR!!!

Then God GRANTS Jesus to rule for a thousand years…. Gives him all His power and authority to do so… but, not His throne to rule from!!!

What do you say was the POWER AND AUTHORITY that Jesus had BEFORE CREATION???

No answer is there, because there was no such situation. But if you feel you think there was, please, please present it for your defence…. Better still, let the scriptures, the Torah, speak what you say!!!

Remember, that every time you make things up claiming it is from God’s truth, you implicate yourself… I’m just warning you in case you think that there are no consequences for preaching false doctrines!!

 

[Eli G]

What are you trying to say now???
...

I am not saying anything I didn't tell before ... and it is from the Scriptures. Compare what I just posted with this other post:

That kind of pre-existence you're talking about is very entertaining, but since you have not provided any evidence that it really is as you say, it doesn't seem more than a pretext created by someone's imagination to twist what Jesus Christ said, but not a reality.

Let's continue analyzing what the Bible says.

John 16:
27(...)
ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε __ you for me had affection
καὶ πεπιστεύκατε __ and you have believed
ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ [τοῦ] θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον. __ that I came from the side of God.
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς __ I came from the side of the Father
καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον· __ and have come into the world.
πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον __ Now I am leaving the world
καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα. __ and am going toward the Father.

It doesn't seem like Jesus is referring to something imaginary like you think, since he says that he is going to return to the place where he came from.

If Jesus was non-existent as you say and he says that he will return to the place where he came from, do you think Jesus is saying that he will return to non-existence?

It is not simply that Jehovah sent Jesus as He sends (ἀποστέλλω) a prophet or apostle. It's more special in the case of Jesus: Jehovah sent (πέμπω) his Son who was at his side to come to a different world.

When we read Jesus' sayings about his previous life, we see words like ascend and descend, go out and enter, come and return... These words do not refer to a birth of Jesus out of nothing, but to the birth of a being that had existed before as the Logos of God, emptied himself, and now he has to grow in another kind of existence, the human existence, very different from the one he had in that place from where he was sent.

John 17:1 (...)
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
(...)
24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

 

[firedragon]

In the following dialogue with the Jews, Jesus Christ made it implicit that he had seen Abraham personally.

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If Jesus' words are considered true, then we should accept that he taught about his pre-existence before he was born as a human being.

Which translation are you using brother?

 

[Eli G]

Which translation are you using brother?

I use the translation I find more accurate and that's why I use a parallel Greek original text to show it ... like in this case:

John 17:5
καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, __ So now glorify me, you, Father,
παρὰ σεαυτῷ __ at your side
τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον __ with the glory that I had
πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι __ before the world was
παρὰ σοί. __ alongside you.

PS: I am sorry, but I don't even know you, so, I am not your brother. I don't even know if you are one of those who call themselves apes or whatever else. No, we are not brothers.

 

[firedragon]

I use the translation I find more accurate and that's why I use a parallel Greek original text to show it ... like in this case:

John 17:5
καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, __ So now glorify me, you, Father,
παρὰ σεαυτῷ __ at your side
τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον __ with the glory that I had
πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι __ before the world was
παρὰ σοί. __ alongside you.

PS: I am sorry, but I don't even know you, so, I am not your brother. I don't even know if you are one of those who call themselves apes or whatever else. No, we are not brothers.

Yep. But which translation are you using? Or are you translating it yourself?

 

[Eli G]

Yep. But which translation are you using? Or are you translating it yourself?

Sometimes I do.

Most of the time I use the NWT of Jehovah's Witnesses, in its study edition or the one with references. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/binav/r1/lp-e

 

[firedragon]

Sometimes I do.

Most of the time I use the NWT of Jehovah's Witnesses, in its study edition or the one with references.

Brother. I am asking for the translation you are using for the exact text you quoted when I responded.

Your quote below. Which translation did this come from? Specifically. I was not asking for a generalization of your method. Hope you understand.
"
John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”"

 

[Eli G]

I already answered your question.

 

[Soapy]

Which translation are you using brother?

An imaginary rendering that his eyes sees because of the tears that smear his vision.

Jesus did not say that he had seen Abraham. The Jews spoke of ‘Intelligence about a person’, ‘Have you Seen Abraham?’. That does not say that Jesus saw Abraham … but when a desperately wrong believer wants to view a scripture in a way to fit what they want to think then they will go to any depth to see it…. Worse is when they preach it, especially to those who innocently then believe them!!! The Bible warns against such ‘Grieving the Spirit of truth’!!

 

[Soapy]

Brother. I am asking for the translation you are using for the exact text you quoted when I responded.

Your quote below. Which translation did this come from? Specifically. I was not asking for a generalization of your method. Hope you understand.
"
John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”"

He won’t answer with credible response as it would speak against him since there is no such rendering.

 

[Soapy]

I already answered your question.

Ha ha ha ha…. Yeah, right!!!

Glad you added the emoji to say, ‘Yes, I was wrong! And not for the first… second, third…. Fo… times…!

 

[Eli G]

Suppose we give a neutral person to read the following dialogue:

In the following dialogue with the Jews, Jesus Christ made it implicit that he had seen Abraham personally.

John 8:56
"Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.”
57 Therefore the Jews said to him:
“You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them:
“Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

If Jesus' words are considered true, then we should accept that he taught about his pre-existence before he was born as a human being.

Then you tell him to choose one of the following options about what Jesus' response was to the question "Have you seen Abraham?"

A) No, that's ridiculous
B) Yes, I saw him
C) something else.

Choose one.

 

[firedragon]

An imaginary rendering that his eyes sees because of the tears that smear his vision.

With all due respect Soapy. My question was to him to understand where he is coming from. And that was the pertinent question. Only after his response to it could one respond to him constructively. If you don't know one's source of knowledge, you cannot respond constructively.

Thanks.