Jesus is God?

[icebuddy]

If a person continues to exist at death, then where is Adam?

I assume with the Rich man of Jesus's story in Luke 16...

If a person continues to exist at death, then why does Ecclesiastes 9v5 say the dead know not anything?

ECC 9:5 is from mans perspective not Gods. i see no reason to think this passage is talking about the after life... If you continue to read it also says "nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten." Any religious person here will tell you that there are rewards in the next life and our memory is not forgotten. Many Jehovahs witnesses I have talked to in the past say God remembers them after death. So clearly this is a mans view of things, not Gods.

If a person continues to exist at death, then why does Ezekiel 18 vs4,20 say the soul that sins dies?

The person that doesnt sin dies too, right? I believe this to be talking of Spiritual death. People today sin and sin and still live, yet they are spiritualy dead. Even those that try not to sin will die, but they are Spiritualy alive.

If a person continues to exist at death, why did the Psalmist liken death to being asleep?
[Psalm 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4]

Im alive when i sleep, arent you? We also Dream in our sleep. Paul writes in Phil 1:21-23 that to die is gain and that Gain is to be at home with Jesus. Sounds like a good dream to me

If a person continues to exist at death, then where was Jesus after he died and before God resurrected Jesus?
[Acts 2vs27,31]

At Death Jesus's spirit was with God. Jesus's Body was in a tomb for 3 days.

Why would Jesus believe the dead are in a state of deep sleep if they are in existence?
[John 11vs11-14]

Deep sleep doesnt mean one is non-existant. We dream when we sleep. Some have Nightmares. Anyways, Jesus tells a story about what death is like in Luke 16. He says that after one dies they exist in one of 2 places. Paradise(abrahams bossom) or a hellish place

What would be the need for a resurrection if a person exists at death ?
[Daniel 12vs2,13]

To put on our new glorious bodies and exist as God planned it.

Doesn't one have to first be resurrected to heaven or earth to exist in a spiritual state?

Spirits dont need ressureccted. ive never seen an example of Spirits needing resurrected in the Bible. Only Physical Bodies are resurrected.

Adam was spiritual before he sinned. After Adam sinned he was not spiritual.
Satan was spiritual before he sinned. After Satan sinned he was not spiritual.

The one that sins dies. Spiritual death

in Love,
tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If people are alive at death then why would Jesus liken death to sleep?
- John 11vs11-14
How conscious is a person that is in a 'deep sleep'?
Ecc 9vs5,10; < 2nd Tim 3vs16,17

If people are alive at death, then why would Daniel [12vs2,13] mention that many that sleep in death will awaken? If they are already awake, why would they need to be awakened?

If only physical bodies are resurrected, then why does 1st Cor 15v50 says the physical flesh can not inherit God's kingdom?

If Adam only had a spiritual death, then where is Adam?
When did Adam become a living soul? Gen 2v7
Wasn't it after Adam received the breath of life?
After Adam lost the breath of life Adam became a dead soul.
That is why Ezekiel 18vs4,20 says the soul that sins dies.
Adam's soul or life as a soul was not immortal.
Adam was not offered immortality but everlasting life.
Isn't there a difference between immortal and eternal life?
Adam could only continue to live if obedient.
Adam was not death proof.
So everlasting life was conditional on obedience to God.
Disobedience meant everlasting death or non-existence.

Is Satan immortal or death and destruction proof?
According to Gen 3v15, Jesus proves to be the 'seed' that deals Satan a fatal death bruise to his head.
Doesn't Jesus destroy mortal Satan -Hebrews 2v14 B?

How long are those of Psalm 92v7 destroyed or annihilated? __________
Can they be in hell forever?
Since all those in hell are 'delivered up' [Rev 20vs13,14] then isn't hell empty?
Isn't it emptied-out hell, vacant hell, that ends up dying out of existence in a symbolic second death of no chance of returning or being revived or brought back again?

 

[icebuddy]

If people are alive at death then why would Jesus liken death to sleep?
- John 11vs11-14

i believe this is the same Lazarus Jesus speaks about in Luke 16 that died and is carried off by angels. In his flesh, he looks to be alseep or dead, but his spirit is carried off by angels. We both agree our spirits go back to God who gave it. what we debate is if we are aware or not in the spiritual state of existance.

How conscious is a person that is in a 'deep sleep'?

How dead is a person in deep sleep?

If people are alive at death, then why would Daniel [12vs2,13] mention that many that sleep in death will awaken? If they are already awake, why would they need to be awakened?

Daniel says "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake". it is my understanding that when we "PUT ON" our new bodies we will be able to physicaly move around and go where we want. To those living, it will apear as many have come back to life or awoke. yet to God, we have always been alive and exist without bodies as spirits with Jesus. Let me ask you a question: Read the following

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cr 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Cr 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Cr 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

What part of us can be naked and unclothed that is being talked about?
If we are to "PUT ON" our new bodies, what state are we in before?

2Cr 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Paul would prefer to be absent from the body and at home with Jesus. What part of Paul is able to be absent from the body?

If only physical bodies are resurrected, then why does 1st Cor 15v50 says the physical flesh can not inherit God's kingdom?

1 Cor 15:50 says Flesh and Blood cannot inheirt Gods Kingdom. Flesh and Blood is another word for Natural Body. Like Jesus we must Put on our new Bodies, without blood. Jesus asended into heaven with his Flesh and bone body(without Blood), so there is a difference between the 2 bodies. Natural Body and Super Natural Body

If Adam only had a spiritual death, then where is Adam?

Spiritualy Dead people go to the same place as the Rich man in Jesus's story in Luke 16 when they die in the flesh.

When did Adam become a living soul? Gen 2v7

The Word Soul can and does mean more than 1 deffinition. Matt 10:28; Rev 6:9,10; 2 Kings 4:27; Ps42:6; ps 43:5 (Its also the inner man)

After Adam lost the breath of life Adam became a dead soul.

The word "SOUL" can and does mean more than 1 deffinition. I agree with you that the word soul can reffer to the entire person, but that doesnt limit the use of the word. Soul also means the "Inner Man". Matt 10:28 says the Body can die at the hands of men, yet the soul cant. Matt 10:28; Rev 6:9,10; 2 Kings 4:27; Ps42:6; ps 43:5 are all good examples of the Soul meaning more than you think...

Isn't there a difference between immortal and eternal life?

The Soul/spirit that exists after death goes to be with Jesus now. Here we rest in a state of bliss in my belief. Eternal Life with our new Bodies will alow us to not only share in this love bliss with Jesus, but also we can now physicaly do things and control our bodies. Kinda like a robot with his battery, take the battery away and neiter one can operate. Our Souls will put on our new bodies and be able to function as God desired from the beginning.

Disobedience meant everlasting death or non-existence.

i do not read that into the text as you do...

Is Satan immortal or death and destruction proof?

I dont claim to know everything, but I will give you my best interpitation of what I believe. none of this however damages my love I have for our Lord Jesus and his Father. I believe Satan and all the evil people will go to hell. The place where they will be locked up for 1000 years. After Satan is let go, he will realize that none of us desire to be evil and will self destruct or be destroyed by God (matt 10:28)

Doesn't Jesus destroy mortal Satan -Hebrews 2v14 B?

i hope so! Dont forget that most of Christianity doesnt like to think beyond the new earth and new heavens. After the 1000 years. Everyone is immortal, eccept toward God who created. That is why we read

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I do not claim to know exatly what this destruction is like, so lets agree that it sucks and we do not desire this for anyone striving to please God.

Can they be in hell forever?

i dont know all the answers, never claimed too.

in Love,
tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Was Jesus friend Lazarus a beggar covered with sores?_________
Psalm 37v25.

After Jesus resurrected friend Lazarus please notice at John 11v53 the religious leaders took counsel to put Lazarus to death. Lazarus was not mentioned at the day of Jesus death. Since Lazarus was his friend, it would seem likely if alive then Lazarus would have been there with his sisters. Since no one could go to heaven before Jesus died, then Lazarus would be part of those like Daniel and David [ Dan 12vs2,13; Acts 2v34] who did Not ascend to heaven, but will be part of an earthly resurrection in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham. -Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18.

Those of 2nd Cor chapter 5 are those with a heavenly calling to rule with Christ.
Rev 5vs9,10; 20v6;Daniel 7vs13,14,18] they [Jesus brothers] put on new 'bodies' not made of flesh because flesh and blood [1Cor15v50] can not inherit the kingdom of God.
They will Not be part of the humble meek to inherit earth or the earthly realm of God's kingdom under Christ. -[Psalm 37vs11,29] because they inherit heaven. -Dan 7v18

Soul can be destroyed according to Matthew 10v28 B.
Soul is not immortal or death proof because it can be destroyed according to Matt 10v28 B. Adam did not posses a soul. Adam was a living soul until he died and became a dead soul, a lifeless soul. Gen 2v7; Ezekiel 18vs4,20.

Is there a Scripture that says after the 1000-years all are immortal ?
Adam was offered everlasting life if obedient.
Angels were not created immortal otherwise Satan could not be destroyed by Jesus
Hebrews 2v14 B. Gen 3v15.
Both humans and angelic creation are mortal.
We will not all gain immortality [life from within] but everlasting life dependent on obeying God. By the end of the thousand years all alive on earth will have gained everlasting life because they prove themselves to be obedient and will remain that way.

Only those called from earth to heaven to serve with Jesus as kings and priests [Rev 5vs9,1-20v6; Dan 7v18] are gifted as Jesus was [John 5v26] with immortality or having life within oneself becoming death proof.


Destruction is annihilation [Psalm 92v7] destroyed forever. Never to exist again.

No one can be in hell forever because according to Rev 20vs13,14 hell ends.
Hell dies a symbolic second death.
First, aren't all in hell 'delivered up' before hell ends?

Satan does Not go to hell but the abyss of Rev 20v1-3. After his release Satan goes to 'second death' according to Rev 20v10; 21v8 or being destroyed -Hebrews 2v14 b.

So depending if one is part of the 'little flock' of Luke [12v32] of Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40] who will rule with Jesus in the heavens, or be part of the earthly 'other sheep' of John [10v16] who are also the sheep-like ones of Matthew [25v32] that do good to Jesus 'brothers' of vs 40 will determine whether one will live forever in the heavens or live forever on a beautiful paradisaic earth with everlasting life in view.

 

[Muffled]

i believe this is the same Lazarus Jesus speaks about in Luke 16 that died and is carried off by angels. In his flesh, he looks to be alseep or dead, but his spirit is carried off by angels. We both agree our spirits go back to God who gave it. what we debate is if we are aware or not in the spiritual state of existance.

How dead is a person in deep sleep?

Daniel says "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake". it is my understanding that when we "PUT ON" our new bodies we will be able to physicaly move around and go where we want. To those living, it will apear as many have come back to life or awoke. yet to God, we have always been alive and exist without bodies as spirits with Jesus. Let me ask you a question: Read the following

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cr 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Cr 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Cr 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

What part of us can be naked and unclothed that is being talked about?
If we are to "PUT ON" our new bodies, what state are we in before?

2Cr 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Paul would prefer to be absent from the body and at home with Jesus. What part of Paul is able to be absent from the body?

1 Cor 15:50 says Flesh and Blood cannot inheirt Gods Kingdom. Flesh and Blood is another word for Natural Body. Like Jesus we must Put on our new Bodies, without blood. Jesus asended into heaven with his Flesh and bone body(without Blood), so there is a difference between the 2 bodies. Natural Body and Super Natural Body

Spiritualy Dead people go to the same place as the Rich man in Jesus's story in Luke 16 when they die in the flesh.

The Word Soul can and does mean more than 1 deffinition. Matt 10:28; Rev 6:9,10; 2 Kings 4:27; Ps42:6; ps 43:5 (Its also the inner man)

The word "SOUL" can and does mean more than 1 deffinition. I agree with you that the word soul can reffer to the entire person, but that doesnt limit the use of the word. Soul also means the "Inner Man". Matt 10:28 says the Body can die at the hands of men, yet the soul cant. Matt 10:28; Rev 6:9,10; 2 Kings 4:27; Ps42:6; ps 43:5 are all good examples of the Soul meaning more than you think...

The Soul/spirit that exists after death goes to be with Jesus now. Here we rest in a state of bliss in my belief. Eternal Life with our new Bodies will alow us to not only share in this love bliss with Jesus, but also we can now physicaly do things and control our bodies. Kinda like a robot with his battery, take the battery away and neiter one can operate. Our Souls will put on our new bodies and be able to function as God desired from the beginning.

I dont claim to know everything, but I will give you my best interpitation of what I believe. none of this however damages my love I have for our Lord Jesus and his Father. I believe Satan and all the evil people will go to hell. The place where they will be locked up for 1000 years. After Satan is let go, he will realize that none of us desire to be evil and will self destruct or be destroyed by God (matt 10:28)

i hope so! Dont forget that most of Christianity doesnt like to think beyond the new earth and new heavens. After the 1000 years. Everyone is immortal, eccept toward God who created. That is why we read

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I do not claim to know exatly what this destruction is like, so lets agree that it sucks and we do not desire this for anyone striving to please God.

i dont know all the answers, never claimed too.

in Love,
tom

I Peter 4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The dead can't be preached to unless they are aware.

Lu 18:22 And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

How can one have a heavenly treasure if one isn't aware to enjoy it?
I find no verse that supports any kind of physical body in Heaven.

 

[Muffled]

Was Jesus friend Lazarus a beggar covered with sores?_________
Psalm 37v25.

After Jesus resurrected friend Lazarus please notice at John 11v53 the religious leaders took counsel to put Lazarus to death. Lazarus was not mentioned at the day of Jesus death. Since Lazarus was his friend, it would seem likely if alive then Lazarus would have been there with his sisters. Since no one could go to heaven before Jesus died, then Lazarus would be part of those like Daniel and David [ Dan 12vs2,13; Acts 2v34] who did Not ascend to heaven, but will be part of an earthly resurrection in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham. -Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18.

Those of 2nd Cor chapter 5 are those with a heavenly calling to rule with Christ.

There is no evidence to support that statement. Lazarus when he first died might have stayed with the body because people didn't know they could leave it. Whether he was bored enough to sleep or not isn't mentioned. The statement of Jesus that he was sleeping could be interpreted as saying that his death was only a temporary state like sleep from which one may awake. Lazarus having been awakened into life may well have understood that his spirit was able to go to Heaven since it could go back into life and he was not unaware of the teachings of Jesus about Heaven.

I don't know where you think this becomes particularized. It looks like a generic statement to me ie. all believers are the "we." Paul's letter wasn't written to the apostles but to the believers in the church.

 

[icebuddy]

URAVIP2ME,
It seams to me that you follow a belief simalar to Jehovahs Witnesses. Thats fine and I have no ill will towards you or your belief. I just see death as different. We both Love Jesus and his father and Im sure that they know this.

Soul

My belief is that Only God can destroy a person 100%. Man can try to kill us, but he can only kill the flesh. The way I see it, when one dies they go to be with Jesus in spirit. We both believe our Spirits return to God who gave it, yet I believe we are aware.

Angels were not created immortal otherwise Satan could not be destroyed by Jesus

Again, i believe only God (Jesus) can destroy his creation 100%

By the end of the thousand years all alive on earth will have gained everlasting life because they prove themselves to be obedient and will remain that way.

i believe that to be Private interpitation. i believe when satan is released, he will realize he cannot turn anyone for we all have Jesus and his Father in our hearts.

Destruction is annihilation [Psalm 92v7] destroyed forever. Never to exist again.

The Hebrew word for Destroy at ps 92v7 carries the meaning of Overthrown or defeated as well.

First, aren't all in hell 'delivered up' before hell ends?

i believe the 2nd death is where God will destroy the entire person. Until then they are alive and aware in my belief. I am not sure 100% and can only say what i personaly believe. i site the passage where we are to not fear man who can only kill the flesh, but fear him who can kill body and soul. I believe this is the 2nd death.

Satan does Not go to hell but the abyss of Rev 20v1-3. After his release Satan goes to 'second death' according to Rev 20v10; 21v8 or being destroyed -Hebrews 2v14 b.

i dont disagree with this. We may not see eye to eye 100%, but its close to my belief of how things will happen. However, i dont claim to know everything either.

So depending if one is part of the 'little flock' of Luke [12v32]

i dont see how anyone can become part of the little flock. Luke 12:22 clearly says he was talking to his disiples. This seems to be a belief of the WTBS and taught by them. According to Luke 12:22, who is Jesus talking to when he calls them Little Flock?

or be part of the earthly 'other sheep' of John [10v16]

The Other sheep are the Gentiles. How do you reconcile your belief of 2 different classes of believers when the very same passage says that all Gods people are one in christ and are part of one flock under one shepherd?

In Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

The dead can't be preached to unless they are aware

i dont disagree that people are aware after death.

How can one have a heavenly treasure if one isn't aware to enjoy it?

i dont disagree

I find no verse that supports any kind of physical body in Heaven.

Jesus is the only one I believe has a physical body in heaven. He asended with it and I assume still has it.

In Love,
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I Peter 4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
The dead can't be preached to unless they are aware.
Lu 18:22 And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
How can one have a heavenly treasure if one isn't aware to enjoy it?
I find no verse that supports any kind of physical body in Heaven.

Absolutely right. There is No verse supporting physical body in heaven.
1st Cor 15v50 is clear flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom.

Agree the 'human' dead can not be preached to unless aware.
The human dead according to Jesus sleep the deep sleep of death.
John 11vs11-14. Jesus got his beliefs from Ecc 9v5 that the dead are not conscious of anything and the Psalms [6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4] that the dead sleep and do not praise God. See also Daniel 12vs2,13

1st Peter 4v6 is in connection to 2nd Peter 2vs4,5 and Jude verse 6.
1st Peter 3v19 the 'spirits' in prison are the 'fallen angels' of Noah's day.
The 'hell' of 2nd Peter 2v4 is not the Greek word hades or haides.
Hades and the Hebrew word 'sheol' are the words usually translated as hell.
The word used at 2nd Peter is a Greek word: Tartaoo. This is the prison state of those sinning angels, not humans. Jesus preached to those spiritually dead angels or spirits so they know what awaits because by Jesus appearance they know Jesus and others died faithful. Jesus preaching to them showed them Satan did not win our over him.
The same fate awaits them as Satan. Jesus destroys Satan as Hebrews [2v14 b] mentions. After all, Satan is a sinner and all sinners die. The price Satan and the fallen angels pay is the price of Matthew 12v32 and Hebrews 6vs4-6.

Please notice before Luke 18v22 that in verse 18 Luke is very specific that Jesus was talking to 'a certain ruler' not the crowds nor his apostles.
Jesus could read that ruler's heart and know material things were holding him back from following Jesus. By Jesus offering him 'treasure in heaven' Jesus was offering for him to be part of Daniel 7v18 to be one of those who would rule with Jesus during his 1000-year rule over earth. Rev 5vs9,10; 20v6.

Those that rule with Jesus have jobs to do.
According to Rev 5vs9,10 they serve with Jesus as: kings and priests.
A king has subjects or citizens.
A good king will take care of governmental responsibilities of his subjects.
A good priest will take care of the spiritual needs of the king's subjects.

Since Jesus rule is heavenly then heavenly blessings come from heaven to earth or come to earthly subjects or citizens that are part of the earthly realm of God's kingdom in the hands of God's crowned King and High Priest Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfills the promise to Abraham that all families of 'earth' will be blessed and all nations of 'earth' will be blessed. Blessed with everlasting life.
Gen 12v3; 22vs17,18 Rev 22v2.

For the majority of mankind Jesus offered: everlasting life.
Compare: Matthew 5v5 with Psalm 37vs11,29,38
There is a difference between being immortal in the heavens and gaining eternal life as Adam was offered as a perfect human of sound mind and body.
The life of humans living on earth is dependent on obedience to God.
Whereas being immortal in the heavens means being death proof.
They like Jesus [John 5v26] are granted or gifted to have life in themselves.

So Jesus 'brothers' of 1st Cor 15v50 & Matthew 25v40 are those who will have spirit bodies in heaven. Whereas the 'sheep' of Matthew 25v32 can retain their physical bodies because they continue to live or remain alive on earth. They have the prospect of gaining everlasting life on a paradisaic earth starting with Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.
Proverbs 2 vs21,22; 10v30.

 

[icebuddy]

Absolutely right. There is No verse supporting physical body in heaven.
1st Cor 15v50 is clear flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom.

What I know is that Jesus has a "Flesh and Bone" body without the blood. For the Blood was sacrified for our sins.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus has a Flesh and Bone (No Blood) resurrected body.

Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Im assuming he went to heaven. He was in his Body of Flesh and Bone while this happend.

1Cr 15:48 Every human being has an earthly body just like Adam's, but our heavenly bodies will be just like Christ's.

The only Body Christ had mentioned in the Bible was one of Flesh and Bone.

Jesus got his beliefs from Ecc 9v5

Thats a good one ECC 9:5 is a mans point of view and not Gods point of view. Count the number of times the writer says, "Under the Sun". ECC also says everything in meaningless and there is no reward after death. Do you believe that too? Dont forget its not a good idea to make doctorine out of poetry passages either. Jesus plainly expresses what will hapen at death in Luke 16 and Paul confirms this by writing

Phl 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.
Phl 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Phl 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Phl 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.

What part of Paul is able to Depart and be with Christ at death? Dont forget Jesus's story in Luke 16.

2Cr 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

What is the Earthly House Paul is talking about?

2Cr 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

What Part of us can be Clothed or "Put On" our house from heaven?

2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

What part of us can be found naked?

2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

What part of us is at home in the body?

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

What part of us can be absent from the Body and at home with Jesus?

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

In Love,
Tom




Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tom-

Where did Jesus go the day he died? Wasn't it hell? Acts 2vs27,31

Then how can you say 'today' or the day Jesus died he and the thief went somewhere else?

Rather, wasn't the promise made on the day they died?
Shouldn't the comma [,] be placed 'after' the word 'today'?
In other words, truly I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.[future tense]

Didn't Jesus use different materialized bodies after he was resurrected before he ascended to heaven? After all the apostles and others did not recognized the resurrected Jesus because of him using different materialized bodies.
No one takes anything physical to heaven.

 

[icebuddy]

Where did Jesus go the day he died? Wasn't it hell? Acts 2vs27,31

Jesus's Spirit went to be with the Father at death. Jesus's Body was in the grave for 3 days. Acts 2:27-31 says where he was not.

Then how can you say 'today' or the day Jesus died he and the thief went somewhere else?

Because their Spirits where in Paradise while their Bodies where in the grave.

Rather, wasn't the promise made on the day they died?
Shouldn't the comma [,] be placed 'after' the word 'today'? In other words, truly I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.[future tense]

This I have heard before by Jehovahs Witnesses. The Problem they have is that the whole bible is filled with this saying and only at this passage do they alter it. ill explain:

Truly I tell you - This is a saying found in the New Testament 74 times. All 74 times the comma is placed after this saying. Never do we read other passages including the word "Today". The saying was "Truly I tell you" then what is being said follows, "Today you will be with me in paradise". Exactly as Jesus's story in Luke 16, that the very day one dies his Spirit/soul is carried off. Continuing with the comma - Knowing this, that all 74 times the comma is place after "Truly I tell you," wouldnt it be consistent to agree with the comma being paced like all the other 73 times found in scripture? I conclude that only a bias belief would move the comma around to after "Today,". Which not only is this at odds with the other 73 times this phrase is said, but also would put some words in Jesus's moth that he would not have to say. Truly I tell you today, because yesterday I wasnt true? No need to say such a thing anyways... Besides "Truly I tell you" is a Greek saying and the truth follows the saying. "Truly I tell you today," is not a Greek saying nor is it found in the bible anywhere else as one. Hence, "Truly I tell you" is the saying, and "Today with me in paradise" is the point after the saying.

Didn't Jesus use different materialized bodies after he was resurrected before he ascended to heaven?

ive never seen that in scripture? Scripture says Jesus's Body that died was resurrected. Jesus showed this body to his disiples. Where would one ever get this idea? (Not from reading scripture)

After all the apostles and others did not recognized the resurrected Jesus because of him using different materialized bodies.

Im going out on a limb that you where taught this by the Watchtower? The Bible says why they didnt reconize him. Their eyes where held from reconizing him. i also remeber reading in the old testament that he was disfigured beyond reconization. Anyway, the New testament says their eyes where held from reconizing him.

No one takes anything physical to heaven.

Physical Properties that is. Jesus rose into the sky with a flesh and bone body that he was showing his disiples. Paul writes that he will have a body like Christs body.

In Love,
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus's Spirit went to be with the Father at death. Jesus's Body was in the grave for 3 days. Acts 2:27-31 says where he was not.
Because their Spirits where in Paradise while their Bodies where in the grave.
This I have heard before by Jehovahs Witnesses. The Problem they have is that the whole bible is filled with this saying and only at this passage do they alter it. ill explain:
Truly I tell you - This is a saying found in the New Testament 74 times. All 74 times the comma is placed after this saying. Never do we read other passages including the word "Today". The saying was "Truly I tell you" then what is being said follows, "Today you will be with me in paradise". Exactly as Jesus's story in Luke 16, that the very day one dies his Spirit/soul is carried off. Continuing with the comma - Knowing this, that all 74 times the comma is place after "Truly I tell you," wouldnt it be consistent to agree with the comma being paced like all the other 73 times found in scripture? I conclude that only a bias belief would move the comma around to after "Today,". Which not only is this at odds with the other 73 times this phrase is said, but also would put some words in Jesus's moth that he would not have to say. Truly I tell you today, because yesterday I wasnt true? No need to say such a thing anyways... Besides "Truly I tell you" is a Greek saying and the truth follows the saying. "Truly I tell you today," is not a Greek saying nor is it found in the bible anywhere else as one. Hence, "Truly I tell you" is the saying, and "Today with me in paradise" is the point after the saying.
ive never seen that in scripture? Scripture says Jesus's Body that died was resurrected. Jesus showed this body to his disiples. Where would one ever get this idea? (Not from reading scripture)
Im going out on a limb that you where taught this by the Watchtower? The Bible says why they didnt reconize him. Their eyes where held from reconizing him. i also remeber reading in the old testament that he was disfigured beyond reconization. Anyway, the New testament says their eyes where held from reconizing him.
Physical Properties that is. Jesus rose into the sky with a flesh and bone body that he was showing his disiples. Paul writes that he will have a body like Christs body.
In Love,
Tom

If Jesus and the thief have immortal Spirit bodies then what would be the point of a resurrection if not dead? If a 'spirit person' or a 'spirit angel' are indestructible, then why does Scripture talk of punishment as everlasting destruction- 2nd Thess 1v9?

At Acts 2vs27,31 the words 'left' and 'leave' are used. See also: Psalm 16v10.
If someone is not left somewhere he had to be there in the first place.
If the thief and Jesus went to heaven the day they died, then why wasn't King David ascended into the heavens?____ See Acts 2v34.

Wasn't it 40 days after Jesus was first resurrected that Jesus ascended into heaven? Where was Jesus after God resurrected him and before Jesus ascended into heaven? Wasn't Jesus on earth? Where does it say Jesus showed his old fleshly body to his disciples? Mary Magdalene according to John 20 vs 14-17 did Not recognized the resurrected Jesus.
She thought Jesus was the caretaker of the garden until Jesus spoke to her.

That same day according to Luke 24vs13-31 during the seven mile walk from Jerusalem to Emmaus while enroute doesn't a 'stranger' talk to Cleopas and the other disciple? Verses 15,16 says they did not recognize the resurrected Jesus. It isn't until verse 31 that their eyes were opened and they knew it was Jesus.
Please notice now at verse 35 that it was made known to them it was Jesus by the breaking of the bread, the bread mentioned at verse 30. If Jesus had not appeared to them in a fleshly materialized body, what would be the point of Jesus saying in verse 39 that a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see Jesus has. Jesus eating something also showed he was there in bodily form.

While fishing too, at first the disciples did not discern it was the resurrected Jesus [John 21v4]. Verse 14 says: that occasion was the third time the resurrected Jesus showed himself to his disciples.

How could Jesus rise with a flesh and bone body when 1st Cor 15v50 is clear that flesh and blood can Not inherit the kingdom of God?

Jesus was originally from the spirit realm before God sent Jesus to earth to be born as a perfect sinless human. Jesus returned to the spirit realm when God resurrected him. The thief, like Adam, was never from the spirit realm but from the physical realm. No resurrection hope was held out for perfect Adam, however, the thief, on the other hand, being humanly imperfect like imperfect King David would be part of Acts 24v15's resurrection.

Those of Daniel 7v18; Rev 5vs9,10;20v6 will have have a body [spirit] body like Christ because they will 'put on' immorality [1 Cor 15vs53,54] being part of the first resurrection. Paul will be part of those first fruits of vs 20-22.

Paul gives the illustration of a plant at vs 35-50. A seed when sown must give up the seed in order to turn into a plant. Jesus 'brothers' of vs 50 [see also Matt 25v40] are the first fruits or resurrected to heaven.
They like Jesus 'give up' their fleshly natural bodies. However, the living 'sheep' of Matt 25v32 remain alive on earth, then the dead still asleep in the dust of the ground need to be awakened from death's deep sleep as the prophet Daniel looked forward [12vs2,13] during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth when there will be an earthly resurrection for those of Acts 24v15.

 

[Muffled]

Absolutely right. There is No verse supporting physical body in heaven.
1st Cor 15v50 is clear flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom.

Agree the 'human' dead can not be preached to unless aware.
The human dead according to Jesus sleep the deep sleep of death.
John 11vs11-14. Jesus got his beliefs from Ecc 9v5 that the dead are not conscious of anything and the Psalms [6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4] that the dead sleep and do not praise God. See also Daniel 12vs2,13

1st Peter 4v6 is in connection to 2nd Peter 2vs4,5 and Jude verse 6.
1st Peter 3v19 the 'spirits' in prison are the 'fallen angels' of Noah's day.
The 'hell' of 2nd Peter 2v4 is not the Greek word hades or haides.
Hades and the Hebrew word 'sheol' are the words usually translated as hell.
The word used at 2nd Peter is a Greek word: Tartaoo. This is the prison state of those sinning angels, not humans. Jesus preached to those spiritually dead angels or spirits so they know what awaits because by Jesus appearance they know Jesus and others died faithful. Jesus preaching to them showed them Satan did not win our over him.
The same fate awaits them as Satan. Jesus destroys Satan as Hebrews [2v14 b] mentions. After all, Satan is a sinner and all sinners die. The price Satan and the fallen angels pay is the price of Matthew 12v32 and Hebrews 6vs4-6.

Please notice before Luke 18v22 that in verse 18 Luke is very specific that Jesus was talking to 'a certain ruler' not the crowds nor his apostles.
Jesus could read that ruler's heart and know material things were holding him back from following Jesus. By Jesus offering him 'treasure in heaven' Jesus was offering for him to be part of Daniel 7v18 to be one of those who would rule with Jesus during his 1000-year rule over earth. Rev 5vs9,10; 20v6.


So Jesus 'brothers' of 1st Cor 15v50 & Matthew 25v40 are those who will have spirit bodies in heaven. Whereas the 'sheep' of Matthew 25v32 can retain their physical bodies because they continue to live or remain alive on earth. They have the prospect of gaining everlasting life on a paradisaic earth starting with Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.
Proverbs 2 vs21,22; 10v30.

That is absurd. God doesn't believe things; He knows things and certainly doesn't have to listen to the wisdom of men to know what is true. If anything Jesus is most likely addressing the beliefs of his apostles although it may very well be that as practical men they thought of death as permanent rather than temporary.

These verses have to do with the observable. The dead don't do anything observable, the bodies just lie there like a stone.

I would like to see you try to prove that. It looks like pure speculation because you wish to believe it.

This is so much a fairy tale that it qualifies as fantasy fiction.

Spirit bodies are physical bodies in the New Jerusalem not Heaven. There is no reference in this chapter to Heaven whatsoever. This chapter is about the Resurrection of believers.

There is no reference in this verse to remaining on earth or in the original body. This is all trumped up because you don't understand scripture. The physical Kingdom of God when it comes is in the clouds and people are raptured toit and their bodies changed at that time. That Kingdom later descends to earth but there is no continuity as you claim. Anyone left on earth alive who didn't enter the Kingdom of God will not have a new body and will die and be able to do evil until the thousand years are accomplished then they will be gone.

 

[Muffled]

If a person continues to exist at death, then where is Adam?

If a person continues to exist at death, then why does Ecclesiastes 9v5 say the dead know not anything?

If a person continues to exist at death, then why does Ezekiel 18 vs4,20 say the soul that sins dies?

If a person continues to exist at death, why did the Psalmist liken death to being asleep?
[Psalm 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4]

If a person continues to exist at death, then where was Jesus after he died and before God resurrected Jesus?
[Acts 2vs27,31]

Why would Jesus believe the dead are in a state of deep sleep if they are in existence?
[John 11vs11-14]

What would be the need for a resurrection if a person exists at death ?
[Daniel 12vs2,13]

Doesn't one have to first be resurrected to heaven or earth to exist in a spiritual state?
Or, in other words, have a 'spiritual state of mind' whether in a physical or spirit body?

Adam was spiritual before he sinned. After Adam sinned he was not spiritual.
Satan was spiritual before he sinned. After Satan sinned he was not spiritual.

Adam is wherever God wants him to be.

Have you ever seen a dead body express knowledge? I think not.

Souls are the combination of spirit and body. Sin adversely affects the body and the qualities that the spirit retains.

Dead Bodies look like they are asleep.

Anywhere He wished to be.

Jesus did not express His beliefs and doesn't have any because He knows instead.

Because there is a difference between a living spirit and a living soul.

No. The spirit was created first in God's image (He is a spirit not a body) then breathed into the created body to make it a living soul.

Everyone who has a spirit can be called spiritual whether they sin or not. In our culture we don't call someone spiritual unless their minds are centered on the spirit.

 

[Misty]

Why would the all human Jesus want to be god who is altogether evil if the Biblical accounts of his activities are correct?

 

[Muffled]

What I know is that Jesus has a "Flesh and Bone" body without the blood. For the Blood was sacrified for our sins.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus has a Flesh and Bone (No Blood) resurrected body.

Act 1:9 ¶ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Im assuming he went to heaven. He was in his Body of Flesh and Bone while this happend.

You have very little to go by for the constitution of the body of Jesus. However the concept that Jesus doesn't have blood is erroneous because your reasoning is false.

You have resoned that the fact that Jesus shed His bllood means that He shed all of it however a shedding of blood can be a little or a lot and rarely would it be total. The crucifixion account does talk about stripes that he was given which would have caused some minor bleeding and the crown of thorns would have caused minor bleeding also. The sword through the side would have caused much more bleeding but the heart would have stopped pumping blood before all of it gushed out.

In addition to that the resurrected body was an operational body which suggests that it worked in the same way as ours. ie. None of the descriptions of him describe Him as pale as though He had no blood. His appearance was noted as different because close associates had trouble recognizing Him.

This is based on the null hypothesis ie that Jesus didn't mention His blood. Just because something isn't mentioned doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He didn't mention that He had eyes either but one can infer that He is seeing His disciples and the null hypothesis appears pretty silly as a result. He didn't mention that He had a mouth but He ate fish and bread by the shores of Galilee.

There is no evidence that He went there immediately.

This might qualify but it is also possible that Stephen saw an image of Jesus:
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

 

[icebuddy]

If Jesus and the thief have immortal Spirit bodies then what would be the point of a resurrection if not dead?

To get our new Bodies to live on the new heaven/Earth. i dont think God intended us to live as Spirits...

If a 'spirit person' or a 'spirit angel' are indestructible, then why does Scripture talk of punishment as everlasting destruction- 2nd Thess 1v9?

I have mixed feeling on this, however i see both sides. How can it be Everlasting or How can it be Destruction? The answer you are looking for would be in the word "Everlasting". My Church would say Everlasting is without End and is continual Destruction. Although my Church agrees to disagree with people on this issue. Quakers are not strict on this issue as much as other religions. Our Faith Statement is that "We believe that human history will come to an end when Jesus returns and this world is redeemed through the creation of a new heaven and new earth. We believe that all will be raised from the dead, the saved to eternal life with God, the lost to God&#8217;s eternal condemnation."

Its the mind state of the reader. If you believe in anilation, you by-pass the word Everlasting and focus on the word destruction. If you believe Erternal Punishment you Focus on the word Everlasting and view distruction as Everlasting.

At Acts 2vs27,31 the words 'left' and 'leave' are used. See also: Psalm 16v10.

The difference with us is that you only view the word soul with one deffinition in mind, while trinitarians view the word soul with 2 definitions in mind. The deffinitions are not hidden and are public for all to see. the Breath of Life as well as the Inner man(Survives death)

it can also be said that Hades is the underworld compartment that Jesus talks about in Luke 16. That Jesus was in a place like Lazarus in his story. That in this place Jesus preached to the spirits of those that died before his ressurecction

1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

Remember that Jesus didnt die for angels and as you say Adam and Eve where perfact and have no second chance, that angels also dont have a second chance. Who do you believe these "SPIRITS" where that were in prision? I believe they are proof that Jesus's story in Luke 16 is a true story and Jesus might have preached to the Rich man about the salvation that is in the name "Jesus".

If someone is not left somewhere he had to be there in the first place.

Our Brains think differently. you see death as non-existant and I see death as existing in a spiritual state. Jesus's body was not left to rott and Jesus's Spirit was not left either. i do have a question for you. many JW says Jesus's body was destroyed and Jesus made bodies to walk around in. My question to you is this: According to Jesus in john 2:19-22 what was Jesus going to raise? Im only pointing this out so you can see how i believe. i believe Jesus must have existed in a spirit sate in order to raise his body. How else could Jesus of said he was going to raise the temple of his body if he was not a spirit?

I ran out of time...

In Love,
tom

 

[icebuddy]

If the thief and Jesus went to heaven the day they died, then why wasn't King David ascended into the heavens?____ See Acts 2v34.

Are you thinking that Davids Spirit never went back to be with God who gave it? The whole point is that King david was not the one in whom scriptures was talking about when God did not let his body rott in the grave. If you read the writings it looks as if David is the one being talked about, but it is Jesus. Peter was explaining that David didnt ascend into heaven and sit to the right of God, but Jesus did. Since we know 100% that Davids Spirit ascended into the heavens or heavenly places to be back with God, we must assume Acts is talking about Davids Fleshly Body that rotts in the grave. Peters point was that Jesus is the one who ascended to the right hand of God in power, not David.

Jesus is the only person to ascend into heaven under his own power. He can come and go as he pleases. People like us and King David cannot ascend into heaven and get all the answers. We must die in our mortal bodies before our spirits can ascend into heaveny places. Stephen asked Jesus to recieve his spirit, and where do you think Jesus was? Because we think so differently about death, you dont understand my thoughts 100%, but I will try to help as we go.

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

My belief is that one must die in the flesh in order to inheirit the Kingdom of God. King David didnt ascend into heaven in his flesh body, but His spirit did. Context shows that David didnt ascend into power, but Jesus did.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

i dont like to use ECC very often because of the way it is written in such agony of mans views, but we get the sence that mans spirit goes somewhere and animals somewhere else. We see this when Stephen asks Jesus to recieve his spirit and Jesus asks the Father to recieve his spirit at death. This is a personal request upon something of importance. I posted this to show you that something leaves our flesh bodies at death and is more than a power source and is personal to the individual that dies.

Out of time again

Tom

 

[yodh]

"Please, elaborate on this (preferably in lower case). Why is Christ less than God? Why is he a god? Are you suggesting that there are multiple gods?"

There is only one God.
He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He is a singular entity with a singular personality.

Trinitarians try to make God three persons in one God - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
This is impossible, since a son cannot be his own father and God has no father, therefore the son cannot be The Father.

In a way however, you can say Jesus IS God.
His Father is God, and since he has no blood/substance in him other than God's (Mary was nothing more than an incubator for the flesh body that became Jesus the man) therefore he is God ENTIRELY. The Bible says that Jesus' Father is the Holy Ghost (therefore if God is Jesus' Father, then God IS the Holy Spirit/Ghost, but NOT the second person of the Godhead, otherwise God is a schizo!)

His LIFE however is his own (John 5:26 explicitly states this), and is very much separate to his Father's.

He is the complete and full expression of God - that's why Jesus said 'if you see me you've seen the Father'.

So he is equal to God, but is not God, since (once more the the dumb ones) you can't be your own Father and there is only ONE God!

Jehovah is the God of Jesus.
Jesus is the direct creation of God, in this case he is not a God.
The holy spirit is not God, this is God's active force, a very powerful one that He uses in all of his creations.