Who created Jesus according to Revelation 3v14 B?
Who had No beginning according to Psalm 90v2?
Who was with God in the beginning, but Not before the beginning?
God is unbegotten. Who is only-begotten as 'firstborn' at Col 1v15,16?
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Jesus is God?
- Thread starter Khale
- Start date
Who created Jesus according to Revelation 3v14 B?
Who had No beginning according to Psalm 90v2?
Who was with God in the beginning, but Not before the beginning?
God is unbegotten. Who is only-begotten as 'firstborn' at Col 1v15,16?
Muffled
Jesus in me
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. 18 ¶ I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you ... 20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
This would be correct if greater meant a higher number than one, however that is not what Jesus meant by using the word greater. It is a question of perception. Perceiving God in Jesus is a lesser perception than perceiving God who is omni-present. Omni-presence does not intimate a number of gods but one God who is present everywhere.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The book has been proved to me. I am not likely to prove it to you. For the unbelieving there is never enough evidence. Present the evidence and the person will refuse to believe the evidence no matter how cogent it is.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is a common bogus interpretation. Jesus does not know (as in experience) something that far into the future (billions of years) because His existence ie the physical part, does not extend that far.
It was 2,000 years ago that Jesus words of Matthew 24v36 apply to our day, or our time frame, not billions of years from then or from now.
Matthew 24v14 mentions that the good news of God's kingdom would be proclaimed world wide as it is being done today before the end of all badness on earth comes. That date is the day and hour Jesus was talking about before he ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill during his thousand-year reign over earth.
First, Revelation is made clear by the resurrected heavenly Jesus that the establishment of God's kingdom under Christ would be followed first by a period of time on earth that is marked by increased 'woe' for planet earth and its inhabitants according to Revelation 12 vs9, 12
Only divine intervention into mankind's affairs will bring to ruin those ruining our earth.- Rev 11v18 B.
Although the date is not given at Matthew 24 the 'season' mentioned in verses 32,33 is clearly marked by Jesus description there and at Luke 21.
There is no place on earth where the Good News of God's kingdom, or royal government [Daniel 7v13,14; 2v44] has not been proclaimed.
To what further extent the preaching and teaching [Matt 28vs19,10] will be carried out we do not know. We are to endure until the end of badness on earth comes [Matt 24v13] and Jesus takes the action as Isaiah 11v4 and Rev. 19 vs 11,14,15 describes which is not off in the distant future.
John 1:1 ¶In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 ¶And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 ¶And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Yes, Gary-
In the 'beginning' was the Word.....[not before the beginning]
Psalm 90v2 says God had No beginning because God is from everlasting.
Only God was before the beginning. That is why Colossians 1vs15,16 can speak of Jesus as being 'firstborn' in the heavens, and that all things [heavenly and earthly] come through Jesus as God's firstborn heavenly Son. That is also why Jesus could refer to himself at Revelation [3v14] as the beginning of the creation by God.
The same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1v1 that applies at Acts 28v6.
One verse uses the letter 'a' and the other does not. Why since the same grammar rules applies to both verses?
Compare Phillippians 2v6 with Colossians 1v15 and Hebrews 1vs1-3
and John 14v28 where Jesus says Jesus' Father is greater than Jesus.
So Phillippians is showing although Jesus existed in God's form [image]
Jesus is Lord to the glory to God the Father. Glory of his God. -Rev 3v12.
Acts 2v36 mentions God made Jesus both Lord and Christ, Not made Jesus God.
That is also why Psalm 110v1 mentions two [2] LORD/ Lord's.
LORD in all capitals is God [YHWH], and Lord with lower case letters stands for Jesus.
Proverbs 30v4 B asks the question if we know God's name and the name of his Son?
In the 'beginning' was the Word.....[not before the beginning]
Psalm 90v2 says God had No beginning because God is from everlasting.
Only God was before the beginning. That is why Colossians 1vs15,16 can speak of Jesus as being 'firstborn' in the heavens, and that all things [heavenly and earthly] come through Jesus as God's firstborn heavenly Son. That is also why Jesus could refer to himself at Revelation [3v14] as the beginning of the creation by God.
The same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1v1 that applies at Acts 28v6.
One verse uses the letter 'a' and the other does not. Why since the same grammar rules applies to both verses?
Compare Phillippians 2v6 with Colossians 1v15 and Hebrews 1vs1-3
and John 14v28 where Jesus says Jesus' Father is greater than Jesus.
So Phillippians is showing although Jesus existed in God's form [image]
Jesus is Lord to the glory to God the Father. Glory of his God. -Rev 3v12.
Acts 2v36 mentions God made Jesus both Lord and Christ, Not made Jesus God.
That is also why Psalm 110v1 mentions two [2] LORD/ Lord's.
LORD in all capitals is God [YHWH], and Lord with lower case letters stands for Jesus.
Proverbs 30v4 B asks the question if we know God's name and the name of his Son?
Muffled
Jesus in me
You read but you don't hear or understand what you read. First you have to understand verse 3: Mat 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
This question refers back to the two previous verses and is answred in vs 4-22. This question is answerd in vs 23-34. The literal question (when will the world completely expire) is answered in 35 & 36, then He answers the question about the end of this world as we know it (this world will still be here because The New Jerusalem descends to it) in the rest of the verses.
It is the literal expiration of the earth v 35, 36 that Jesus won't be here for because it is billions of years into the future. No doubt the events of 37 on are going to happen soon. The events of 4-22 have already occurred although there could be a double fulfillment as in the 2nd and 3rd destruction of the Temple. THe third temple hasn't been built yet. Some of 23-34 have happened some have not.
There is a minor and a major fulfillment to Matt 24.
The minor fulfillment was in the year 70- Luke 21vs20-24
The major fulfillment is close ahead of us- Matt 25vs31,32.
The world will NEVER completely expire.
First of all, doesn't Ecclesiastes 1v4 B say the earth abides forever?_______
[Psalm 104vs4,5; 93v1B; 78v69; 1 Chron 16v30; Eph 3v21]
What will expire or end then is the world of badness on earth.
Matt 24v14 then the end will come is not the end of earth but the end of badness on earth before Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill at the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.
We are at the time of the end of badness on earth when the words from Jesus mouth will rid the earth of all wickedness according to Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15.
Psalm 92v7 shows destruction of the wicked forever.
Proverbs 2vs21,22 shows the upright remain.
Psalm 37vs11,29,38 is where Jesus was referring.
The meek inherit earth....wicked are removed.
AaronG
Member
Christians believe there is only one God (monotheism). Their explanation is:
The Father is Yahweh
The Son is Yahweh
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh
Isn't Genesis 1v2 clear that God's spirit is his powerful active force that he used in creation?
The Son never claimed to be Yehweh, nor did any of Jesus followers, nor Jews.
John 1v34 for the record [bare record] Jesus is Son
Nathanael v29 Jesus is Son
Peter 6v69 as spokesman for all 12 apostles said Jesus is Son
Jews 10v36 accused Jesus because Jesus said he was Son
Martha 11v27 Jesus is Son
Jews 19v7 Jesus ought to die why? claiming to be Son
Jesus 20v17 Jesus believes he has a God over him - [Rev 3v12]
Jesus believed he had his own will and so does Yehweh have his own will.
[Matt 26v39; Luke 22v42; John 4v34; 5v30; 6v38]
So professed or so-called Christians might say Jesus was Not created as the beginning of God's creation [Rev 3v14b] but that is not what Scripture teaches.
Trinities or Triads or gods can be traced back to its roots at the birthplace of pagan religion at ancient Babylon. From Babylon the people migrated and spread their pagan ideas world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
There is no belief in a trinity or triad in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
It was after first-century Christianity ended that there became a fusing or mixing of pagan thought with Scripture. -Acts 20vs29,30
Muffled
Jesus in me
I don't see a dichotomy.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
We have been over this before. Jesus did not call Himself Yahweh, no doubt because in Jewish tradition the name was not supposed to be spoken, however He did name Himself by the other name God gave to Moses "I am."
Jesus had the will of the flesh but there is no evidence that the will of His spirit was any different from the will of God and in fact we have evidence of this in this verse: Joh 6:38 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Your interpretation has been shown to be incorrect.
There is no evidence of this. If I spot three stars in the sky together, does that make me a Pagan? not in the least.
idea
Question Everything
Matt 3: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
If the trinity were true, this should read
“A voice came from within Jesus (not from heaven) saying this is me myself and I, I am pleased with myself.” – does that make sense to you?
Luke 22: 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
In this instance, the will of Jesus is different than the will of the Father – two different people with two different wills.
Can you rewrite this scripture to agree with the trinity doctrine? Here it is:
Jesus, talking to himself, said unto himself, I really should not go through with this, nevertheless, not my will but my other will be done??? OK – I have no idea how to write the last half of that script to agree with the trinity.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with G-d and man.
G-d does not increase in wisdom, He is and always has been all knowing. G-d does not increase in favor with Himself.
John 7: 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
or - “My doctrine is my own, I sent myself here” Is that how it should read?
John 17:1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
G-d does not pray to himself, He does not glorify Himself, He does not give power to Himself…
“And Jesus, looking at Himself in a mirror (not to another being in heaven, looking at himself) said to himself, the hour is come for me to glorify myself. I will dress up as another person so that they will think another person glorifies me…. I will now use my power that I had all along over all flesh and will give life to as many as I have given myself.” Is that how you think it should read? Well, it does not read that way.
John 17: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d.
Jesus ascended to his Father indicating that His Father was at a different place that Jesus was.
Acts 2:3 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
If Father and Son and Holy Ghost were numerically one, how could Jesus be at the right hand of God? How would He be exalted? And why would He need to have received a promise of the Holy Ghost?
Mark 15: 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?
G-d does not forsake Himself. He does not cry out to Himself. He is not schizophrenic… sounds like there is more than one God to me...
not polytheism - Henotheism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
Henotheism (Greek ἓν θεός hen theos "one god") is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean worshipping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities.[1]
sing the Hallelulah chorus - Lord of lord, and God of Gods
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of Gods,
it would be impossible for Him to be a "God of Gods" if other Gods did not exist...
If the trinity were true, this should read
“A voice came from within Jesus (not from heaven) saying this is me myself and I, I am pleased with myself.” – does that make sense to you?
Luke 22: 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
In this instance, the will of Jesus is different than the will of the Father – two different people with two different wills.
Can you rewrite this scripture to agree with the trinity doctrine? Here it is:
Jesus, talking to himself, said unto himself, I really should not go through with this, nevertheless, not my will but my other will be done??? OK – I have no idea how to write the last half of that script to agree with the trinity.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with G-d and man.
G-d does not increase in wisdom, He is and always has been all knowing. G-d does not increase in favor with Himself.
John 7: 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
or - “My doctrine is my own, I sent myself here” Is that how it should read?
John 17:1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
G-d does not pray to himself, He does not glorify Himself, He does not give power to Himself…
“And Jesus, looking at Himself in a mirror (not to another being in heaven, looking at himself) said to himself, the hour is come for me to glorify myself. I will dress up as another person so that they will think another person glorifies me…. I will now use my power that I had all along over all flesh and will give life to as many as I have given myself.” Is that how you think it should read? Well, it does not read that way.
John 17: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d.
Jesus ascended to his Father indicating that His Father was at a different place that Jesus was.
Acts 2:3 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
If Father and Son and Holy Ghost were numerically one, how could Jesus be at the right hand of God? How would He be exalted? And why would He need to have received a promise of the Holy Ghost?
Mark 15: 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My G-d, my G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?
G-d does not forsake Himself. He does not cry out to Himself. He is not schizophrenic… sounds like there is more than one God to me...
not polytheism - Henotheism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
Henotheism (Greek ἓν θεός hen theos "one god") is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean worshipping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities.[1]
sing the Hallelulah chorus - Lord of lord, and God of Gods
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of Gods,
it would be impossible for Him to be a "God of Gods" if other Gods did not exist...
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idea
Question Everything
There is an interesting discrepancy surrounding the genealogy of Christ in that two different genealogies are given. Mathew, the scriptorium Jewish tax collector, begins his gospel with a genealogy which emphasizes the fulfillment of the prophecy that Jesus would be born of King David’s family. Luke recites a different family tree for Jesus which includes some names which are the same (such as David) and other names which are different. Luke was a gentile who provides us the most detailed information of Jesus’ dealings with women. While Mathew gave the genealogy of Jesus’ step-father Joseph, Luke gave the genealogy of Jesus’ actual mother, Mary. After Jesus is baptized and introduced by a voice from heaven to those present as “the son of God” Luke proceeds to explain what is meant by “the son of God” by reciting the genealogy of Mary which showed who Jesus was the son of. Luke is not Jewish, does not care about Jewish Kings, does not even call David a “king” in the genealogy. Luke was not concerned about Jesus’ relationship with David, He wanted to show Jesus’ relationship to God.
(New Testament | Luke3:37 - 38)
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Just in case you missed it, again… which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Jesus was a sonf of Mary, and "Son of God" - that is what Luke was interested in showing.
Consider that Jesus is not the only grandchild of Adam.
All who read this are grachildren of Adam...
and therefore literal children of God.
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Rationality
The Grand King of Nothing
The Resserection was not in the old testemant, it was ADDED in the new testamant which was written much later than the old testemant,that is why jewish people think that Jesus was a very holy man, but not the messiah.
idea
Question Everything
Do Jewish people believe in a closed cannon?
Deuteronomy 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
everyting after Deut 4:2 has been added on, and is therefore not scripture?
some Christians think Mormons should not "add onto the scriptures"...
I guess that would be another thread... what makes it scripture?
Abraham was so sure of the resurrection that he was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham knew Isaac was the promised 'seed' that all nations and all families of the earth would be blessed.
[Genesis 12v3; 22vs17,18]
In order for that to happen a dead Isaac would have to be resurrected. Although God stopped Abraham's hand short, it was considered as good as done.
Then in the Hebrew OT there were prophets such as Elijah and Elisha.
[1st Kings 17 vs17-24; 2nd Kings 4 vs32-37; 13 vs20,21]
Resurrections were performed by both of them.
Also starting back at the first prophecy by God at Genesis 3v15 Jesus proves to be the 'resurrected seed' [Messiah] that will deal Satan [serpent] a fatal death bruise to his head.
Muffled
Jesus in me
The God is the same, however Jews fail to acknowledge God in the person of Jesus. Since all salvation and judgement has been given into the hands of Jesus (God doesn't share these things BTW) the Jews are left on the boiseterous waves without a paddle.
Yes, all salvation and judgment has been 'given' into the hands of Jesus.
Who 'gave' that responsibility to Jesus?
Jesus is the crowned acting king of God's kingdom, and as 1st Cor 15vs27,28 says Jesus subjects himself to God.... To whom does Jesus at verse 24 deliver up [give back] the kingdom?
God says to David's Lord [Jesus] at Psalm 110v1and Luke 20vs41-43 Jesus to sit at God's right hand until God makes Jesus enemies his footstool. Doesn't the resurrected heavenly Christ, according to Col3v1, sit at the right hand of God? Where does it say Jesus sits at his own right hand?
Does one person each have their own throne?
According to Rev 3v21 how many thrones are there and for who?
Does Jesus believe he has a head over him at Rev 3v12?
Isn't Jesus God's anointed one at Psalm 2v2?
Doesn't the heavenly resurrected Jesus believe what is written at Rev 3v14 b?