Jesus is God?

[icebuddy]

Jesus is the Word or God's spokesman.
God is Not begotten.

UR MVP To me,

The WORD of God - Gods word cannot be seperated from God, but rather is subsists eternally in God. Everything God creates, does, he does through his word. To honor Gods word is to honor God himself. When a prophet speaks Gods word, he makes it vissable to mankind, Yet Jesus is the Word made flesh.

God is from everlasting with Jesus being his first creation in the heavens. -Col 1vs15,16

URMVP,
Col1:15 calls Jesus the "Firstborn" of creation. Are you trying to say Jesus was First Created or First Born of creation? Birth is something that only happens on earth and Jesus was Born only 2000 years or so ago. Though Jesus's Birth on earth, he became Marys Firstborn and Gods Firstborn son. (Luke 2:7 & Heb 1:6) Jesus is called Firstborn at this point to show his rank over creation (Mat 28:18) in which he created (John 1:3, Col 1:16) Also if you keep reading Col 1:18 sums it all up for you. The bible is telling us this that he might have supremacy over everything, and you are not in agreement with this for some reason unknown?

FirstBorn - A Jewish term given to only men in the family (unless no men where born or all died) In Ps 89:26-27 King David was the last son to be born of Jesse, yet he is Jesse's Firstborn son. The title Firstborn is a jewish term that shows ones rank and not birth order. no women are chosen as Firstborn, even if born First, unless rare cases where no men exist in the liniage. ones Firstborn title can be lost, stolen, traded, ect... (Showing its not connected to birth order but is a title of ranking) (Gen 41:50-51, Jer 31:9 - Ephraim and Manasseh traded Firstborn title)

Jesus was in that beginning and not before the beginning. -Rev. 3v14

does Jesus have a beginning or is he the Eternal Wordof life? 1 John 1:1-5 states that the word of God is eternal and not created, and became flesh or Born to us. The Greek word for beginning is "Arche" and our english word Archetech is derived from it. What the verse is saying is that Jesus is ruler, creator, source of Gods creation. (Being that he is the eternal word)

The Father is called the Beginning and End of all things, does that mean he has a beginning too or even an ending? Then why force this upon Jesus who is the Image of God expressing him fully and completely? What im trying to say is this, If the Father is called the Beginning of all creation then wouldnt Jesus also be called the beginning of creation in the same way sence he expresses the father fully? (Heb 1:3) Ask yourself a question: What is the Father the beginning and ending of? Creation

As 1st Cor 8v6 says there is one God 'and' one Lord.....
Two are mentioned in that verse by the word 'and' being there.

Are you saying Jesus isnt God and the Father isnt Lord because of this verse? The Context of this isnt saying Jesus isnt God or that the Father isnt Lord, but rather other gods do not matter or exist. To us its one system of Belief and other gods dont exist because they were not created. Next time ask yourself a question: Is Jehovah Lord because according to your understanding of this verse you must say no which is absurd. Dont forget that Jesus emptied himself and is still your mediator until God becomes all in all as it was before the world began.

Who are the two LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110v1 KJV ?
One LORD is in all uppercase letters.
One Lord is not in all capitals.

Read Matt 22:41-46 - Jesus asked the Pharisees: who son is the messiah? They responded the Son of David, which is only 1/2 the answer. Jesus pushes and says, "how then did David call his own son Lord. (A title used of Jehovah and shows Christs deity) The Pharasees had the same problem as the JW of today have, they focus on the Human side of Jesus. But read this

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Jesus was telling the Pharasees that not only was Jesus Davids son by lineage, he was also Davids creator. You need to read Jeremaih 23:5-6 to see the complete circle. Along with Isaiah 40:3, 42:8, 44:6

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

in Love,
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tom- aka icebuddy-

Col. [1vs15,18; Rev 1v5; 3v14] is talking about Jesus being the: firstborn of all creation.
That is different than being firstborn on earth as Adam's son Cain.
And as well as Jesus being firstborn from the dead.
Jesus being the first one actually created,
and the first one being raised from the dead to endless heavenly life.
What does John [3v13] say ?

True, on earth Jesus was Mary's firstborn, but Jesus had a prior pre-human existence as firstborn [only-begotten] God's heavenly Son before God sent Jesus to earth.

Aren't those of Hebrews [12v23] firstborn ?
Congregation of the firstborn,
or those of Rev [20v6] resurrected to heavenly life as being part of the first or earlier resurrection ?

David was Not a firstborn son. [1st Chron 2 vs13-15]
Psalm [89vs20,27] is prophetic to the one foreshadowed by David, or God's own 'firstborn' Son in the heavens, where Jesus as Messiah is spoken of as my servant David.
-Eze 34v24.

Jesus is David's creator only in that 'through Jesus' all things [David] comes into existence according to Col. 1vs15,16. Jesus always gives credit to God as Creator. -Rev. 4v11.
So Jesus is not a co-creator [Creator is singular] but all things God creates through Jesus.

 

[icebuddy]

Col. [1vs15,18; Rev 1v5; 3v14] is talking about Jesus being the: firstborn of all creation.

Yes, Jesus is heir over all creation. Firstborn does not mean First Created. Birth or to be born is only something that happens on earth, not in heaven. God did not birth angels, he created them. Therefore, Jesus being a Jew, was labelled the "Firstborn or heir over creation". Vs 18 answers and agrees with this

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Hbr 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Jesus being the first one actually created

Red Alert! - WOW thats a bold statement never found in the bible! You just called the Eternal Word of life created... Ouch. i will pray for you on this one. Read 1John1:1-5

1Jo 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
1Jo 1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the **eternal life**, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
1Jo 1:3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Read any bible you want on this, they are all the same. The word of life is ETERNAL LIFE, not created. John 1:1 says the Word was alreay there in the beginning, not that the word was created in the beginning...

What does John [3v13] say ?

What does that have to do with Jesus being Eternal or not? The Eternal Word became flesh and Gods Firstborn son and heir or Firstborn over all creation. Ask yourself a question: God is called First and Last, right? Beginning and End, right? Does that mean he has a beginning and a End as well? NO! Then why force these beliefs upon Jesus who is Exactly like the Father in every way?

but Jesus had a prior pre-human existence as firstborn [only-begotten] God's heavenly Son before God sent Jesus to earth.

Thats total speculation for the bible doesnt call Jesus or the Word of God Firstborn until his "BIRTH". No where in scripture are we told Birth happens in heaven, that I know of... Although it is true Jesus had a pre-human existence, it was one of Eternity for he was always there from the beginning and was reffered to as the Everlasting Life that was with God. there are Greek words for created and "NONE" of them are applied to Jesus.

Psa 89:27 "I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.

This is a Futuristic event or Prophescy. Jesus was made "Firstborn" at his birth 2011 years ago

Jesus always gives credit to God as Creator. -Rev. 4v11.
So Jesus is not a co-creator [Creator is singular] but all things God creates through Jesus.

I believe Jesus is Jehovah God with the Father and Holy Spirit as the Body of God, so I cant call him Co-Creator, but simply Creator as I would call the Father creator and the Holy Spirit Creator. Not 3 Creators, but One creator. Just as I believe a person is made up of Body, Soul, and Spirit, if that person built a ship by himself, I wouldnt credit 3 creators, but one creator who is made up of Body, Soul, and spirit.

PS - the Greek word for Through is "Dia" and means "with". So if God spoke something into existance through only his word, then we would could say Gods word also created. To say Gods Word is seperate from God is very very odd to me. (And any Jew and Muslim as well)

Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tom-

Only God [YHWH] was BEFORE the beginning. [Psalm 90v2]

Jesus was in the beginning [Not before the beginning] as God was before the beginning.

What does Revelation [3v14 B] say about Jesus?

No one is saying 'birthing in heaven' as a mother does on earth.
Rather 'firstborn' in connection about Jesus' Father generative power. -Deut. [21v17 B]
The nation of Israel was not literally physically born, was it ?
Yet, at Exodus [4v22 B], the whole nation of Israel was called by God as his firstborn.

Isn't the Bible called God's Word?
Jesus taught God's Word [Bible] as God's Word or spokesman.

God can not die. [be put to death]
Jesus died. [was put to death. -Acts 2v32]
God granted or gifted Jesus to have life in himself [immortality] -John 5v26

 

[icebuddy]

Tom-
Only God [YHWH] was BEFORE the beginning. [Psalm 90v2]

i dont disagree with you, but I also believe the Word is also God and was there already in the beginning as John 1:1 States. "In the beginning WAS the word" - Simply saying the word was also before the beginning or we would read in the beginning the Word came to be NOT that the word already was...

What does Revelation [3v14 B] say about Jesus?

The Father is called the Beginning and End of all things, yet you dont believe He has a beginning do you? Then why force Gods Image, the one who expresses gods very being by his existance to be any different from God who he is beaming exact glory of? (Heb 1:3)

The verse is siply saying as my NIV reads, He is the Ruler of Gods creation, the beginner, the source, the Architect (which the Greek word Arche explains). Jesus is truly the Beginning and End of Creation like the Father. And in no way does that mean they have a End either...

No one is saying 'birthing in heaven' as a mother does on earth.
Rather 'firstborn' in connection about Jesus' Father generative power. -Deut. [21v17 B]

Father and Sonship only occurs in Time here on earth. The Eternal word became the Son of God at his birth here on earth some 2011 years ago. Before this, Jesus was the Eternal Word of God (1John1:1-5)

Hebrews 1:5 explains that God didnt say to any of the Angles, "Today you are my son". Again the word "TODAY" indicates an earthly event and also acknolledges angels existed when this happend. Meaning it didnt happen until after the angels where created and must be an earthly event some 2011 years ago.

The nation of Israel was not literally physically born, was it ?
Yet, at Exodus [4v22 B], the whole nation of Israel was called by God as his firstborn.

You are only proving my point that the word "Firstborn" doesnt mean first created but who holds supremacy. Anyways Isreal is made up of people born here on earth. God is talking about his people when he says Isreal, not the land.

Isn't the Bible called God's Word?
Jesus taught God's Word [Bible] as God's Word or spokesman.

Jhn 5:39 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Jhn 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Jesus is way more than Gods Spokesman. (1john1:1-5) Please read PSALMS 102:25-27 and please explain to me who is being talked about.

Jesus was in the beginning [Not before the beginning] as God was before the beginning.

What Grammer class is that from? Take John 1:1 to any grammer school teacher and say "In the beginning was the Word", then ask was the word before or after the beginng... To top things off John 1:3 says Nothing was made apart from the word, and you want me to believe the word was made? Did you read (FIRST) 1John1:1-5 yet or not? The word is eternal not made.

God can not die. [be put to death]
Jesus died. [was put to death. -Acts 2v32]

That is why Jesus who was God and in the form of God had to become human, so that he could die for our sins.(Phil 2:5-7) And Although Jesus died in the Flesh, his spirit was with the Father(Luke 23:46) and Jesus in his spirit also raised his own body back to life.(John 2:21)

God granted or gifted Jesus to have life in himself [immortality] -John 5v26

Only because he gave it up on his own accord(Phil 2). Are you saying God had to grant Jesus eternal Life twice? Once at creation and again after he died as a man? All through the Bible we read the Word was Eternal and had everlasting life and had life in himself before he became a man. Again, are you saying God granted Jesus eternal life twice?

In Love,
tom

 

[outhouse]

Only God [YHWH] was BEFORE the beginning. [Psalm 90v2]

in reality their culture started out with elohim the one god of many. yahwey came later as a warrior god when they needed such a deity

 

[Mark2020]

Tom-
Only God [YHWH] was BEFORE the beginning. [Psalm 90v2]
Jesus was in the beginning [Not before the beginning] as God was before the beginning.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Actually ἦν is imperfect verb (continuous) which means that the Word had been existing before "the Beginning"

 

[Muffled]

Then you are saying Jesus followers are also God ?__________
Because doesn't Jesus pray at John [17v3] that they [followers] be one just as he [Jesus] and his Father are one?___________ All be same person, or ______

Also, doesn't John [17v20] say that 'all' may be one as even the Father is in Jesus and Jesus in God....and may be one in us?

John [17v22] says they may be one as we are one.....perfected in unity ....

John [17v26] concludes with love that may be in them and I [Jesus] in them.

Not exactly. Remember that a prayer is for something that is desired not something that already is fact. Jesus has the Holy Spirit without measure but we tend toward ego and block the Holy Spirit from being Lord.

The Paraclete is the same person as the Father and the Son. What part of this don't you understand?

Yes.

That would be nice which is why it is prayed for insted of stated as fact.

Now you are getting to the heart of the matter. I ask Jesus to be my Lord and Savior and when that happens it is the Paraclete.

 

[Muffled]

Then how were Jesus' followers 'one' with Jesus and God if not by unity?

Unity of purpose
Unity of faith and belief
Unity of agreement
Unity of goal
Unity of work
Unity of objective
Unity of will
Unity of oneness of spirit

Doesn't 1st Cor [1v10] say: that 'all' say the same thing; and that there be No dissensions [splits/ schisms] among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment.

Of course the meaning of being one with God is that all His attributes are present. However the text does not single out one attribute and say that the unity is merely restricted to that attribute.

This is a fervent hope. So if you had the mind of Christ as I have then you would be in agreement.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus never told people to worship him. They asked them to follow him. Big difference. He said he followed God - only did what he saw his father doing - and never mentioned worshiping him (at least not that I can recall). The emphasis was on following a holy example, not worshiping someone as a god.

If this seems like an omission, one must remember the mission. Jesus did not come to be worshipped; He came to be sacrificed.

No difference. He asked them to be Isalmic (to be obeyed) which is something that God asks for more than He asks for worship. We see that in this verse where worship and obedience are contrasted: 1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath Jehovah as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

As God He could not do otherwise.

God is a holy example.

 

[Muffled]

in reality their culture started out with elohim the one god of many. yahwey came later as a warrior god when they needed such a deity

This is a blasphemy. It is also not the case. The Bible is not specific about how Abraham came to know God but the Bible is specific in saying that God is the creator of all things. That is a far cry from a warrior god. However it is clear that God strives with man because of man's sin.

 

[outhouse]

This is a blasphemy.

this is history.

It is also not the case.

im sorry but it is the truth

The Bible is not specific about how Abraham came to know God but the Bible is specific in saying that God is the creator of all things.

yet we know the world and all life was NOT created as the bible explains.

That is a far cry from a warrior god.

thats because Elohim was the creator god and yahwey the warrior god, yahwey never created anything.





maybe you deny the statues and writing they found claiming yahwey and his asherah that date back to when hebrews were polytheistic.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot deny early hebrews were polytheistic.

both yawey and elohim pre date hebrews and have origins in previous religions cultures

 

[icebuddy]

Outhouse,
Causing trouble everywhere i see

Theres still hope. Oh wait, Hope is the name of a warrior princes created by the Ewoks before they accepted King Kong as their leader. LOL You are a jem...

in Love,
Tom

 

[Muffled]

this is history.

im sorry but it is the truth

yet we know the world and all life was NOT created as the bible explains.

thats because Elohim was the creator god and yahwey the warrior god, yahwey never created anything.

maybe you deny the statues and writing they found claiming yahwey and his asherah that date back to when hebrews were polytheistic.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot deny early hebrews were polytheistic.

both yawey and elohim pre date hebrews and have origins in previous religions cultures

It is no history that I would accept as valid. Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and as such did not start out by warring on people. God does punish those who are evil. The Israwlites had to wander around the desert for forty years because the Canaanites were not yet wicked enough for God to get rid of them.

You claim that you know but there is no way you can prove that you do.

This is total imagination. There is no evidence to support it.

The Isreaelites wandered from God a number of times but that does not change God. The Asherah were a Canaanite concept.

I can't speak for everyone but I can speak fro Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They worshipped the One true God.

There is a great deal of slip between the cup and the lip. The Bible doesn't go into the pre-history of Abraham except for a few instances. It appears that knowledge of God may have been corrupted between Noah and Abraham.

 

[yourgraceisenough]

in revelation chapter one there are three I am the alpha and omega statements, they show Jesus is God...
added to the I am statements of Jesus, the fact the Jews crucified Jesus for claiming to be God, the fact God despite being "jealous would share worship and salvation with Jesus ties up the package of proof that Jesus is God...

 

[Mark2020]

in revelation chapter one there are three I am the alpha and omega statements, they show Jesus is God...
added to the I am statements of Jesus, the fact the Jews crucified Jesus for claiming to be God, the fact God despite being "jealous would share worship and salvation with Jesus ties up the package of proof that Jesus is God...

Sure.
If you want, you could have a look at this book:

The Divinity of Christ
By: H.H. Pope Shenouda III

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/divinity_of_christ_pope_shenouda.pdf

 

[yourgraceisenough]

Sure.
If you want, you could have a look at this book:

The Divinity of Christ
By: H.H. Pope Shenouda III

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/divinity_of_christ_pope_shenouda.pdf

thanks for that I'll give it a read....

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Actually ἦν is imperfect verb (continuous) which means that the Word had been existing before "the Beginning"

Before the beginning of the material or physical world.

So, Jesus was 'with' God as his only begotten heavenly Son before the visible world came into existence and before any other heavenly existence.
Or, as the beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3v14 B.

According to Scripture God had No beginning, whereas Jesus had a beginning.

 

[Mark2020]

Before the beginning of the material or physical world.

Then I suggest adding "of the material or physical world" to your next edition of the NWT.

Or, as the beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3:14 B.

Complete Word Study Dictionary:

ἀρχή ... "the beginning of the creation" means the active beginning of the creation, the One who caused the creation, referring to Jesus Christ not as a created being, but the One who created all things (Joh 1:3).

Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains

ἀρχή, ῆς f: one who or that which constitutes an initial cause—‘first cause, origin.’ ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ ‘the origin of what God has created’ Re 3:14. It is also possible to understand ἀρχή in Re 3:14 as meaning ‘ruler’.

Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains

ἀρχή (arch&#275...
3. first cause, the origin (Rev 3:14), for another interp, see next; 4. ruler, governor, usually in the normal human sphere (Lk 12:11, 20:20; Col 1:16; Tit 3:1; Rev 3:14), for another interp of Revelation’s verse, see prior

According to Scripture God had No beginning, whereas Jesus had a beginning.

No, that's just according to your understanding.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes, according to Scripture God had NO beginning. Always there.

-Psalm 90v2 B
-Psalm 41v13
-Psalm 106v48