Jesus is God?

[icebuddy]

Then what I would suggest is to get a better understanding as to what the TOE says. It is based on the scientific method. Everything we currently know is based on the scientific method. The Influenza Virus evolves. We know this because we can study it and have evidence of its evolutionary path. We know the same for the birds as well as man. We can trace our evolutionary path back beyond the time line given to us by YEC or OEC.

Evolution withing the species does exist. However, Maco-Evolution which is the driving force of Evolutionism has never been seen nor tested by any scientific meathod. Evolutionism (man evolved from single cell over time) has never been witnessed. It goes against the fundamental laws of science itself.

Evolutionism is the apearance of new genetic material at a higher level of organization than existed before. This has never been seen. All Genitic defects are all negative

Evolution is not just "Change", it is an upward Change to a higher level of organization. The Laws of Thermodynamics say otherwise and stand against the Evolution of Man.

But that's you....not me. If I landed on Earth and there was absolutely nothing here but a statue of the President I could "assume" is was made but I could not say that for a "fact" seeing as though I wouldn't have any evidence to substantiate my hypothesis. This is where that "Scientific Method" comes into play in order to determine whether a thing is made or formed naturally. We can show that humans did, in fact, evolve from earlier hominids. Unfortunately this is only disputed by OEC and YEC but they've presented no credible evidence to suggest their hypothesis is to be taken seriously.

The Scientific Method today doesnt have room for God or inteligent maker. Think of it this way, If God does exist, then everything you know about could be dead wrong. Todays science starts off with a bias that God does not exist and explains everything without a creator.

It does not. Just because science can show the existence or evolution of a thing does not mean it has ruled out your god or any other gods or aliens.

science has never shown evidence of evolutionism. They have pastic models of what they would like to find, but have never found. They have made frauds that later where found, but only after the ball got rolling. If you look at everything Evolution has to prove itself today, it has nothing but a philosophical view of what they believe happend. (FAITH = Religion)

Actually this is incorrect. Evolution is about change over time. This is why I said evolution does not rule in favor for or against gods or even aliens. Evolution can only explain the change in life as we know it on this planet. The Scientific Method in conjunction with our understanding of Evolution has lead to countless scientific breakthroughs.

Evolutionism is the claim that natural selection has creative powers. this is a Phisosophical claim made in the name of science. Never would someone like yourself say, "God must of done this". What you are doing is assuming that only nature is real and that God is unreal. You say it doesnt rule out God, but it rules him out of the equasion from the start. What Evolution are you talking about that leads to breakthroughs? Micro Evolution is much different from Macro Evolution. We all believe in changes within a speices, such as skin color and eye color...

The bible is a book that was composed by the hands of men. It can neither serve to prove the existence or non-existence of "God" or any other gods.... One can not use the Bible to prove the Bible. It is an exercise in futility.

How do you sugest one proves the existance of God? Many will say man created God, but the truth is God created man. one would have to assume way too much and make claims that go agaisnt scientific laws themself to believe in the Evolution of man from nothing...

Rom 1:19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.
Rom 1:20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.
Rom 1:23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.

Rom 1:25 Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.

I must be a rare bird...

in Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

URMVPTOME,
You are like my friend slo, a loyal JW to the end. i respect that and we are just going to cause us to spend alot of time chatting back and forth. As much as I like to chat back and forth, I find myself out of time every day. After talking to some people, Im happy you believe in God as our creator.

This leads me to believe even more in Hell and the different degrees in punishment that awaits some people. i know you dont believe in this, but I do until the 1000 year reign of Jesus is over. Then I believe Hell will be destroyed. Anyways, may the love of Jesus Christ be with you always.

in Love,
Tom

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Evolution withing the species does exist. However, Maco-Evolution which is the driving force of Evolutionism has never been seen nor tested by any scientific meathod. Evolutionism (man evolved from single cell over time) has never been witnessed. It goes against the fundamental laws of science itself.

Evolutionism is the apearance of new genetic material at a higher level of organization than existed before. This has never been seen. All Genitic defects are all negative

Evolution is not just "Change", it is an upward Change to a higher level of organization. The Laws of Thermodynamics say otherwise and stand against the Evolution of Man.



The Scientific Method today doesnt have room for God or inteligent maker. Think of it this way, If God does exist, then everything you know about could be dead wrong. Todays science starts off with a bias that God does not exist and explains everything without a creator.



science has never shown evidence of evolutionism. They have pastic models of what they would like to find, but have never found. They have made frauds that later where found, but only after the ball got rolling. If you look at everything Evolution has to prove itself today, it has nothing but a philosophical view of what they believe happend. (FAITH = Religion)



Evolutionism is the claim that natural selection has creative powers. this is a Phisosophical claim made in the name of science. Never would someone like yourself say, "God must of done this". What you are doing is assuming that only nature is real and that God is unreal. You say it doesnt rule out God, but it rules him out of the equasion from the start. What Evolution are you talking about that leads to breakthroughs? Micro Evolution is much different from Macro Evolution. We all believe in changes within a speices, such as skin color and eye color...



How do you sugest one proves the existance of God? Many will say man created God, but the truth is God created man. one would have to assume way too much and make claims that go agaisnt scientific laws themself to believe in the Evolution of man from nothing...

Rom 1:19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.
Rom 1:20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
Rom 1:21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.
Rom 1:23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.

Rom 1:25 Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.

I must be a rare bird...

in Love,
Tom

I moved the debate of this nature to its proper thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2187088-post1.html

 

[Muffled]

What I cant figure out is why one would believe in miricles of the bible, like the resurrection and then force natural fuctions to a super natural person and body?

What do we know? That Jesus spilled his blood for our sins. That Jesus's resurrected body had holes in it and wasnt bleeding. And that Jesus himself says he is flesh and bone and in that body asended into heaven. All of this was a Miricle, right? Then why do you try to force natural body fuctions upon Miricles? Thats whats odd to me...

I dont think God is still creating, do you? After the 6th day he rested. i like to think Gods creation is on automactic pilot of some kind...

This is such a bizzare topic... Why do you force natural upon the super natural? Do you believe in Miricles? Why stop now if you do? God made all the rules of nature and he controls them and they do what he wills, he does not need to follow them himself. I believ Paul had no idea what his new body would be like, but said it would be like Jesus's body. This alone means its very different.

Again, you are appling natural things to a super natural person, Jesus.

1Cr 15:42 It is the same way for the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies, which die and decay, will be different when they are resurrected, for they will never die.

1Cr 15:44 They are natural human bodies now, but when they are raised, they will be spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, so also there are spiritual bodies.

1Cr 15:46 What came first was the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later.

1Cr 15:48 Every human being has an earthly body just like Adam's, but our heavenly bodies will be just like Christ's.
1Cr 15:49 Just as we are now like Adam, the man of the earth, so we will someday be like Christ, the man from heaven.

Clearly Jesus's Body was not like adams and different from what we now know.

In Love,
Tom

One does not need to provide evidence of the natural because it is self evident. It is forcing the issue to say there is a miracle needed when God is fully capable of using the natural. Miracles require evidence because they are rare.

My body has holes in it that don't bleed. Evidently your concept of holes has a hole in it.

No, none of those statements indicates a miracle. A body naturally can lose blood, a body naturally is flesh and bone, and a body can ascend into the air by natural means. However it is a miracle for Jesus to have a beating heart and blood flowing through his body because that is not the case with the dead body.

He rested for a day. There is no indication that He rested longer than that. There is evidence that God created the male portion of the conception of Jesus.

There are differencdes that are evident in scripture and any that aren't are just speculation. I don't buy the "very diffeent" concept because there is no Biblical evidence for it.

Of course there are some differences from our current body but saying it is different from Adam's body may not be correct. There is no indication that Adam's body was subject to death until he ate from the tree of knowledge. Even then he lived a much longer life than is currently evident.

 

[Muffled]

Is he God as in God? this is were I get confused.

God within the body is not as great as God outside the body. However since God is one the point is moot.

The answer then is that Jesus is God as in God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God within the body is not as great as God outside the body. However since God is one the point is moot.
The answer then is that Jesus is God as in God.

Why didn't Jesus teach then that he is God as in God?

 

[AK4]

Why didn't Jesus teach then that he is God as in God?

Did you notice though that Jesus did teach that He is the Lord but not God the Father? Its the same thing Paul and the rest of the Apostles taught too, but as we both know this trinity nonsense has screwed up His teaching.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Did you notice though that Jesus did teach that He is the Lord but not God the Father? Its the same thing Paul and the rest of the Apostles taught too, but as we both know this trinity nonsense has screwed up His teaching.

Besides the pagan trinity triad concept that originated in ancient Babylon many of Jesus other teachings are also screwed up because of mixing or fusing old pagan concepts and ideas with first-century Scriptural teachings.

Instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth, religious leaders often put words, so to speak, in Jesus mouth as if they are some sort of holy ventriloquists. Rather than further Jesus agenda they further their own agenda, often political while keeping up the pretense of acknowledging God.

Without protest from the clergy against their Scriptural errors, people will continue to forsake what is Bible truth [John 17v17] and will not be set free from what is religiously false. The people want to have their ears tickled.
-2 Tim 4v3 B.

 

[AK4]

Besides the pagan trinity triad concept that originated in ancient Babylon many of Jesus other teachings are also screwed up because of mixing or fusing old pagan concepts and ideas with first-century Scriptural teachings.

Instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth, religious leaders often put words, so to speak, in Jesus mouth as if they are some sort of holy ventriloquists. Rather than further Jesus agenda they further their own agenda, often political while keeping up the pretense of acknowledging God.

Without protest from the clergy against their Scriptural errors, people will continue to forsake what is Bible truth [John 17v17] and will not be set free from what is religiously false. The people want to have their ears tickled.
-2 Tim 4v3 B.

Although we dont agree on some things at least this trinity nonsense we may see eye to eye. BTW the trinity ideology predates even babylon, it goes all the way to ancient egypt.

 

[jlyoung1974]

Im a christian the bible never calls yahshua god, he calls god his god 5 times in revelation, says god is greater than him tells mary magdelene after the ressurection to tell the disiples he goes to my father your father my god your god there isnt one verse where he claims to be god.he even prays to god that christians be one like he and god are. Jews onley need to accept him as the promised messiah the bible says he is the first-born of creation high-preist, lord which is not a divine title,mediator,son of god,and intercessor.this is doctrine that was formulated at council of nicea perhaps 400 years after the birth of christ.to me its a stumbling block to jews and muslims who as a whole wont and shouldnt believe in it god is one. And the word says all things were created through him.he is the onley direct creation of god.onley begotton son.son as old as the father nonesense.its a form of polytheism.i never met a trinitarian who could explain it a when they cant they get mad give you a pamplet some non-biblical document.asking people to believe in something thats not in the bible.the bible talks about a great fallen away

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Im a christian the bible never calls yahshua god, he calls god his god 5 times in revelation, says god is greater than him tells mary magdelene after the ressurection to tell the disiples he goes to my father your father my god your god there isnt one verse where he claims to be god.he even prays to god that christians be one like he and god are. Jews onley need to accept him as the promised messiah the bible says he is the first-born of creation high-preist, lord which is not a divine title,mediator,son of god,and intercessor.this is doctrine that was formulated at council of nicea perhaps 400 years after the birth of christ.to me its a stumbling block to jews and muslims who as a whole wont and shouldnt believe in it god is one. And the word says all things were created through him.he is the onley direct creation of god.onley begotton son.son as old as the father nonesense.its a form of polytheism.i never met a trinitarian who could explain it a when they cant they get mad give you a pamplet some non-biblical document.asking people to believe in something thats not in the bible.the bible talks about a great fallen away

I'm a non-theist and gaze upon your scriptures with the same attitude. In your book of Revelation chapters 4 and 5 "God" is (seated) on the throne receiving praise and Yeshua (The Lamb) "stood" in the midst of the 24 elders and when the heavenly creatures were asking "God".....(who's worthy of opening the seals).....Yeshua (The Lamb) steps forward from the midst of the 24 elders and took the scroll from the hand of his god and the creatures gave him praises for being declared the one worthy of opening the seals. After that it says they "worshiped" (The one seated on the throne). We know that this is solely in reference to "God" as described in chapter 4...all the while Yeshua (The Lamb) was standing with the elders. The creatures in heaven viewed Yeshua and his god completely separate.

You, AK4 and URAVIP2ME are correct concerning your scriptures as to whom Yeshua was. Why these debates drag on considering the scriptural evidence is beyond me. Yeshua clearly IS NOT "God"......

 

[mayacrisol]

I know that there are a good many christians out their who believe that those who follow the jewish religion need to be saved because they do not worship Jesus. So, quick question:

Jesus is God(YHWH). It seems to me that we are worshipping the same deity. Am I correct? Why or why not?

The Spirit of God (The Father) is in Jesus. Jesus the man, is not God, that is why He is called son of man.but His Spirit is the WORD, the begotten of the Father from everlasting, who was God, in the form of God in the beginning which is why He is called Son of God, the Christ. (John 1:1, Micah 5:2)


1 cor 8:6 But for us, "There is only one God, the Father. Everything came from him, and we live for him. There is only one Lord, Jesus Christ. Everything came into being through him, and we live because of him."

 

[URAVIP2ME]

According to Numbers 11v17 the spirit of God is not the Father but a force God uses such as he put 'it' [his spirit] upon them.

Jesus is the Word or God's spokesman.

God is Not begotten.
God had No beginning.
Psalm 90v10
God is from everlasting with Jesus being his first creation in the heavens. -Col 1vs15,16
Jesus was in that beginning and not before the beginning. -Rev. 3v14 B

As 1st Cor 8v6 says there is one God 'and' one Lord.....
Two are mentioned in that verse by the word 'and' being there.

Who are the two LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110v1 KJV ?
One LORD is in all uppercase letters.
One Lord is not in all capitals.

 

[Ben Masada]

I know that there are a good many christians out their who believe that those who follow the jewish religion need to be saved because they do not worship Jesus. So, quick question:

Jesus is God(YHWH). It seems to me that we are worshipping the same deity. Am I correct? Why or why not?

No, you are not correct. Jesus was a Jewish man, whose Faith was Judaism. And there is no such a thing in Judaism as the Greek Mythology of demigods. Jesus himself also declared that salation comes from the Jews and not to the Jews. (John 4:22) Besides, we do not worship the same deity: We worship God Who is a Spirit, according to what Jesus said in John 4:24. Christians worship a god in flesh. So, at the Well of Jacob we were represented by Jesus, and Christians by the Samaritan woman.

Ben

 

[Muffled]

Why didn't Jesus teach then that he is God as in God?

He wasn't speaking English.

 

[Muffled]

Did you notice though that Jesus did teach that He is the Lord but not God the Father? Its the same thing Paul and the rest of the Apostles taught too, but as we both know this trinity nonsense has screwed up His teaching.

He said I and my Father are one. That is a teaching that He is God the Father.

Nothing is screwing up His teaching. People get screwy ideas about His teaching.

 

[Muffled]

Besides the pagan trinity triad concept that originated in ancient Babylon many of Jesus other teachings are also screwed up because of mixing or fusing old pagan concepts and ideas with first-century Scriptural teachings.

Instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth, religious leaders often put words, so to speak, in Jesus mouth as if they are some sort of holy ventriloquists. Rather than further Jesus agenda they further their own agenda, often political while keeping up the pretense of acknowledging God.

Without protest from the clergy against their Scriptural errors, people will continue to forsake what is Bible truth [John 17v17] and will not be set free from what is religiously false. The people want to have their ears tickled.
-2 Tim 4v3 B.

Start by cleaning your own house.

Where is your evidence for this? I have never seen Jesus refer to anything pagan pertaining to Himself. It is absolutely impossible to prove that New Testament scripture was influenced by pagan beliefs. Perhaps one could find a congruity but that may simply be that some pagan beliefs are not incongruous with truth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

He said I and my Father are one. That is a teaching that He is God the Father.
Nothing is screwing up His teaching. People get screwy ideas about His teaching.

Yes Jesus said at John [10v30] that he and his Father are one, but please notice the preceding verse at [John 10v29] where Jesus states 'his Father is greater than all'. This is in harmony with John [14v28] that Jesus 'Father is greater than Jesus'.

Jesus prayer at John [17v11] Jesus prays that his follower may be one as we
[Jesus and God] are one. Verses 21-23 continue with Jesus prayer that his followers be one as he and his Father are one.
How can they all be one?
Jesus was not praying they all be God but one in purpose, goal, unity, objective, harmony, faith and belief, etc.

 

[AK4]

He said I and my Father are one. That is a teaching that He is God the Father.

Nothing is screwing up His teaching. People get screwy ideas about His teaching.

Thats one in spirit, purpose, mind etc etc. Just like we are to be ONE WITH JESUS. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Adam and Eve, A man and woman are to be married and become ONE, are they now the same person? Geez, its no coincidence that God perserved for us in the scriptures these examples so "you would be without excuse" for not accepting the Word of God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Thats one in spirit, purpose, mind etc etc. Just like we are to be ONE WITH JESUS. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Adam and Eve, A man and woman are to be married and become ONE, are they now the same person? Geez, its no coincidence that God perserved for us in the scriptures these examples so "you would be without excuse" for not accepting the Word of God.

Right....Not only is John Chapter 17 explicit that Yeshua is not "God" but we find the ascended Yeshua back in heaven (Rev. 3:12) stating 4 times that he has a god. The Greek used can also be rendered as (the god of me). Additionally Rev. 4 and 5 say explicitly that "God" is on the throne receiving praise and worship and Yeshua (The Lamb) STOOD in the midst of the elders and steps forward to take the book from the right hand of his god......I'm not sure what else is needed for trinitarians...but that's why these debates are circular. They can't see it any other way....