That's not what was said, read it again.
I said that the scripture was re-written to support their ideas, and it was.
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Jesus is God.
- Thread starter Templar of Truth
- Start date
That's not what was said, read it again.
I said that the scripture was re-written to support their ideas, and it was.
Serenity Now
Member
The scripture was not re-written it's a ridiculous claim.That's not what was said, read it again.
Serenity Now
Member
Pretty smug for a person that refuses to cite a source.Ok...
Serenity Now
Member
Christ was fully human and fully God so he experienced the same emotions and temptations as all of us do.
One of a million saying exactly the same thing.
Not smug, just realizing a redundant argument long before it happens.
jaybird
Member
as a human i get but if at the same time He is fully the Almighty then whats the point and would satan not know it was pointless.
jaybird
Member
does Jesus not teach us to follow Him, do what He does, be like Him. but when you apply this with the trinity it would mean your trying to ascend to the level of the Lord most High. i dont think i want to put myself on the same level as the Creator whos glory can not be contained in the heavens and earth.
i think there was divinity in Jesus, heavenly elements, not sure how it all works. but IMO i dont think the trinity was what Jesus was teaching. i think Jesus was trying to teach us all to have the oneness like He had/has with the Father but the trinity teaches this only applies to the 3 being trinity family. i think the trinity diminishes much of what Jesus was was teaching.
i think there was divinity in Jesus, heavenly elements, not sure how it all works. but IMO i dont think the trinity was what Jesus was teaching. i think Jesus was trying to teach us all to have the oneness like He had/has with the Father but the trinity teaches this only applies to the 3 being trinity family. i think the trinity diminishes much of what Jesus was was teaching.
Serenity Now
Member
You can find fringe arguments all over the web so call me when you find a reputable mainstream source.
One of a million saying exactly the same thing.
Not smug, just realizing a redundant argument long before it happens.
I found one that claimed Jesus had a twin named Judas and the were the sons of a Roman centurion. That's just crazy talk.
Good point. If satan knew that Jesus was God, why would he even think to tempt the Most High....his own Creator?
If the devil didn't think that Jesus (as an equivalent to Adam) was open to the same kind of temptation, (to self interest) why would he even bother?
If there is not one single statement from either the Father or the son to the effect that they shared an equal position in a godhead, then where did such a notion come from?
Isn't the devil the one who benefits from belief in the trinity? After all, getting people offside with God is what he does best. How better to get people offside with God than to have them break the first Commandment (even unwittingly)? Isn't placing the son in equal position as God with the Father is a clear breach of God's law? Having three heads on one God is bizarre to say the least.
The Jews were God's chosen people for centuries, yet never once did their God ever claim to be three. (Deut 6:4)
Serenity Now
Member
http://overviewbible.com/verses-that-mention-the-trinity/
There is no doubt that Jesus said he was the Son of God and He also said if you have seen me then you have seen the father.
jaybird
Member
[/QUOTE]You can find fringe arguments all over the web so call me when you find a reputable mainstream source.
I found one that claimed Jesus had a twin named Judas and the were the sons of a Roman centurion. That's just crazy talk.[/QUOTE]
truth can be held in the minority of one can it not. should we let our minds be influenced by scripture, logic and plain reasoning or what the majority (mainstream) says.
i would never dispute that, Jesus was the Son, sent from the Father, He did the will of His Father and spoke for the Father. so it only makes sense that when you looked on Jesus you would see the Father. but i dont think that makes Jesus the Father.
I found one that claimed Jesus had a twin named Judas and the were the sons of a Roman centurion. That's just crazy talk.[/QUOTE]
truth can be held in the minority of one can it not. should we let our minds be influenced by scripture, logic and plain reasoning or what the majority (mainstream) says.
i would never dispute that, Jesus was the Son, sent from the Father, He did the will of His Father and spoke for the Father. so it only makes sense that when you looked on Jesus you would see the Father. but i dont think that makes Jesus the Father.
Excellent post, Mindmaster. Good reasoning.In historical copies of the Bible, Jesus never even insinuates this relationship. He refers to God as his father, but by Christian conception that would be true for every human on the earth. He never says he is God, part of a trinity, or any such nonsense in the old texts. These things are only agreed upon in some way after the First Council of Nicea and that only happens 325 years after Jesus.
Past that time, all Bibles were re-written to reflect these notions... In terms of authenticity, on a historical basis, they are just an outright lie. Jesus himself never made any claim to these things, and there is no biblical basis for the assertions except for the heavy editing and butchering of the original texts. So, if antiquity can prove Jesus is not God then any allusion that this is the case is some sort of delusion isn't it?
Christians are basically practicing idolatry and placing another God in front of Yahweh, in essence, directly breaking God's word. I can see where this would be a problem for non-Christian faiths who stem from Abrahmic roots.
jaybird
Member
Jesus was more than a man like the rest of us and i thuink this is where it came from. i think the early church fathers knew this but later on people didnt get it and had to explain who Jesus was so they made the Son the Lord most High
[/QUOTE] Isn't the devil the one who benefits from belief in the trinity? After all, getting people offside with God is what he does best. How better to get people offside with God than to have them break the first Commandment (even unwittingly)? Isn't placing the son in equal position as God with the Father is a clear breach of God's law? Having three heads on one God is bizarre to say the least.
The Jews were God's chosen people for centuries, yet never once did their God ever claim to be three. (Deut 6:4) [/QUOTE]satan could possibly benefit if the trinity is truly a false teaching. i dont agree with it but thats only my opinion and im not the final authority.
a few damaging things the trinity did. it separated Judaism from Christianity. before the councils the faith was still a branch of Judaism. most Jews dont accept our faith because of this doctrine.
if Jesus had a different agenda He was teaching then the trinity would be a good detraction from it. if He was teaching all of us can have the closeness with the Father like He does the trinity could diminish that.
can someone explain where the quote features are so i can reply to specific things like i tried to do here but it didnt work.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Sorry for my intrusion. I just don't think you are getting the two good arguments @Deeje and @jaybird are getting at.
1. Matthew 3:16 The articles and context just as important as the content.
“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”
God say the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him? Regardless if he is human flesh, once you say he is god, it doesn't matter. He descended as a dove on himself and lighted him after he, himself, was baptized. Why would god (flesh or not) need to be baptized?
2. Matthew 12:28
“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
He cast down demons by the Spirit of God not of Himself. It can't be both.
3. Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”
Remember, Christ is the representation or image of his father. Whatever Christ says is from god.
4. Luke 3:22
“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
This dialogue is between two people not one. You (Jesus) are my (the Father's) beloved son. He (the Father) is pleased (of his son). Not of himself.
5. John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
Father will send in Jesus's name. If Jesus was the Father, he would say: The Holy Spirit who I have sent in my name, will teach you all things and bring you remembrance of all that I have said to you.
He did not say that. He distinctly separated himself by that phrase "Father will send" and Jesus will say all that his father said for him to say to you (the people he is speaking with)
6. John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”
I will send myself to you so that the Spirit of truth will proceed from me unto you.
He didn't say that.. He distinctively said that Jesus will send to you from the father. He separated himself in how he refers to his father (not himself). The Spirit of truth proceeds from the Father (not Jesus). He (Jesus) will testify about me (the father). Not of himself.
7. Acts 1:4
“Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”
Why would god (flesh or not) need to wait until he has been promised. Why would he wait for himself to say X and say to his listeners that he heard this from himself. That makes Jesus sound unhealthy in the mind, I should say.
8. Acts 2:33
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”
He exalted himself to the right hand of himself and receive from himself what he has given to himself?
9. Acts 10:38
“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
Why would god anoint himself. He is god, right?
Why and how would he give power to himself when he is already perfect and holy?
Paradox: How can he become flesh (unholy) and spirit (holy) at the same time and claim he has no sin but "looks like a human" to where it makes believers say he can be tempted. Yet, god cannot be tempted.
Jesus healed because he had faith in his father and because "god was with him." He said his disciples can do the same if they too had faith. That doesn't make them perfect. If they have only faith of a mustard seed, then they can do the works christ did. Those works christ did he says it did not come from him, it came from his father.
10. Romans 1:4
“Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”
Jesus has the Spirit of holiness because he is his father's son
Lord is used because his disciples refer to him as the image or representation of his father. So he received the title of that respect. No other human in the new testament gets that title. Jesus was perfect. He was special. Not because he is god but because he came from god, has the spirit of god in him, can do the works his father do of him, and die for others as his father told him to do.
He is a disciple of his father.
11. Romans 8:9
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
Since you can only go through Christ to get to god and Christ is god's son (like father like son) of course his spirit would have to be in the believers in order to get to the father not, as jaybird said (my assumption), becomes the father. Once you elevate Jesus as god, and you die or be crucified in him like in galations, you are saying you are becoming the father. That's not the purpose of jesus coming. The purpose is to be one with his human son since you are human too. By doing so, you become one with god. Since you cant be god himself, you relate to a divine human instead.
12. 1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Those articles. Watch for them.
Why both? Because Jesus has the Spirit of god in him and, as I said above, he is the human representation of his father and the Way.
The spirit of god is because he is the source to which Jesus gets his spirit from or is dwelled within him.
13. 2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
It is a communion of three separate people. Once you make everyone one person, there is no trinity.
14. Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Because a christian cant be one with god, he has to go through his son. Since the son is the image of his father (so the two have the same spirit: in union with each other), then his father (separate person) can send the human spirit of his son (searate person) into the heart of the christian.
The spirit of god works in everyone who believes in them. When Jesus was baptised, he was given the spirit of his father. So when a christian is baptised, through Jesus, they recieve the spirit of the father.
It means the same thing "jesus spirit dwells christians" and "gods spirit dwells in christians"
It means the same because one is within another. God is always the source not jesus.
15. Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Those articles. If Jesus is god, he would say "Lord Jesus, the Lord and god, gives you the spirit of wisdom..in knowledge of himself.
He separated it saying that the spirit of wisdom and revelation comes the source--god. The only way that christian can get to that source-god-they must go through the Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Why use through if there is only one person? He could just send himself, the Spirit, to people. He didn't say that. His Spirit went through Jesus. That Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus Father (not himself)
17. Ephesians 2:22
In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Same context as above. The articles.
18. Titus 3:6
Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.
19. Hebrews 9:14
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
20. 1 Peter 1:2
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Foreknowledge of God.
Sanctifying work of the SPirit
Blood of Christ
These are three different spirits working together.
The source is always the father. Not Jesus.
1. Matthew 3:16 The articles and context just as important as the content.
“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”
God say the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him? Regardless if he is human flesh, once you say he is god, it doesn't matter. He descended as a dove on himself and lighted him after he, himself, was baptized. Why would god (flesh or not) need to be baptized?
2. Matthew 12:28
“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
He cast down demons by the Spirit of God not of Himself. It can't be both.
3. Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”
Remember, Christ is the representation or image of his father. Whatever Christ says is from god.
4. Luke 3:22
“And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him [Jesus] in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My [the Father’s] beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
This dialogue is between two people not one. You (Jesus) are my (the Father's) beloved son. He (the Father) is pleased (of his son). Not of himself.
5. John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My [Jesus’] name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”
Father will send in Jesus's name. If Jesus was the Father, he would say: The Holy Spirit who I have sent in my name, will teach you all things and bring you remembrance of all that I have said to you.
He did not say that. He distinctly separated himself by that phrase "Father will send" and Jesus will say all that his father said for him to say to you (the people he is speaking with)
6. John 15:26
“When the Helper comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me . . .”
I will send myself to you so that the Spirit of truth will proceed from me unto you.
He didn't say that.. He distinctively said that Jesus will send to you from the father. He separated himself in how he refers to his father (not himself). The Spirit of truth proceeds from the Father (not Jesus). He (Jesus) will testify about me (the father). Not of himself.
7. Acts 1:4
“Gathering them together, He [Jesus] commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me . . .”
Why would god (flesh or not) need to wait until he has been promised. Why would he wait for himself to say X and say to his listeners that he heard this from himself. That makes Jesus sound unhealthy in the mind, I should say.
8. Acts 2:33
“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Jesus] has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”
He exalted himself to the right hand of himself and receive from himself what he has given to himself?
9. Acts 10:38
“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”
Why would god anoint himself. He is god, right?
Why and how would he give power to himself when he is already perfect and holy?
Paradox: How can he become flesh (unholy) and spirit (holy) at the same time and claim he has no sin but "looks like a human" to where it makes believers say he can be tempted. Yet, god cannot be tempted.
Jesus healed because he had faith in his father and because "god was with him." He said his disciples can do the same if they too had faith. That doesn't make them perfect. If they have only faith of a mustard seed, then they can do the works christ did. Those works christ did he says it did not come from him, it came from his father.
10. Romans 1:4
“Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord . . .”
Jesus has the Spirit of holiness because he is his father's son
Lord is used because his disciples refer to him as the image or representation of his father. So he received the title of that respect. No other human in the new testament gets that title. Jesus was perfect. He was special. Not because he is god but because he came from god, has the spirit of god in him, can do the works his father do of him, and die for others as his father told him to do.
He is a disciple of his father.
11. Romans 8:9
“However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.”
Since you can only go through Christ to get to god and Christ is god's son (like father like son) of course his spirit would have to be in the believers in order to get to the father not, as jaybird said (my assumption), becomes the father. Once you elevate Jesus as god, and you die or be crucified in him like in galations, you are saying you are becoming the father. That's not the purpose of jesus coming. The purpose is to be one with his human son since you are human too. By doing so, you become one with god. Since you cant be god himself, you relate to a divine human instead.
12. 1 Corinthians 6:11
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Those articles. Watch for them.
Why both? Because Jesus has the Spirit of god in him and, as I said above, he is the human representation of his father and the Way.
The spirit of god is because he is the source to which Jesus gets his spirit from or is dwelled within him.
13. 2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
It is a communion of three separate people. Once you make everyone one person, there is no trinity.
14. Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Because a christian cant be one with god, he has to go through his son. Since the son is the image of his father (so the two have the same spirit: in union with each other), then his father (separate person) can send the human spirit of his son (searate person) into the heart of the christian.
The spirit of god works in everyone who believes in them. When Jesus was baptised, he was given the spirit of his father. So when a christian is baptised, through Jesus, they recieve the spirit of the father.
It means the same thing "jesus spirit dwells christians" and "gods spirit dwells in christians"
It means the same because one is within another. God is always the source not jesus.
15. Ephesians 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Those articles. If Jesus is god, he would say "Lord Jesus, the Lord and god, gives you the spirit of wisdom..in knowledge of himself.
He separated it saying that the spirit of wisdom and revelation comes the source--god. The only way that christian can get to that source-god-they must go through the Lord Jesus Christ.
16. Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Why use through if there is only one person? He could just send himself, the Spirit, to people. He didn't say that. His Spirit went through Jesus. That Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus Father (not himself)
17. Ephesians 2:22
In whom [Jesus] you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Same context as above. The articles.
18. Titus 3:6
Whom [the Holy Spirit] He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.
19. Hebrews 9:14
How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
20. 1 Peter 1:2
According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: may grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Foreknowledge of God.
Sanctifying work of the SPirit
Blood of Christ
These are three different spirits working together.
The source is always the father. Not Jesus.
jaybird
Member
i was going to add to one of the things you mentioned.
Jesus gave IMO a very important teaching about asking for things in His name. we are told when praying to the Father, we can ask in the Sons name. the problem with the trinity is it teaches we can bypass asking in the name of the Son by submitting a prayer straight to Father or Son being as they are both the same in the trinity. and we lose another teaching of Jesus.
and just so people know, i am not making a bold statement that the trinity is a false teaching of satan or anything. i just think it has lots of problems. im just a guy that thinks our church has been corrupted for a long time and im trying to sort out all the truths if that makes sense.
firedragon
Veteran Member
If Jesus was God, why would be call himself Son of man so many times? Why would you think?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Also, in Christianity, being "human" is having a sinful nature. If Jesus were god, he cannot be human. If he was a perfect person, he isn't human. Not every human being is tempted on earth. It is possible to live without temptation. That isn't a miracle. What made Jesus "special" was not because the Church says he is god, but because he has the spirit of god and that spirit of god who sent Jesus as the Eucharist, by baptism and communion, washed a person from his or her sins.
Once you make Jesus god, when you take the Eucharist, you are becoming god. Why? Because the claim is that Jesus is god. So if you are one with Jesus, you make yourself god.
Jesus did not teach that. The consecration of the Eucharist (using your language for a minute) is needed for god to send Jesus in the sacrament of communion. If Jesus were god would the priest be in the role of god himself to concecrate the Eucharist?
If he were god himself in role, he is taking the role of Christ. As such, that is completely against scripture. The Church (Christianity) doesn't teach that the priest (and the apostles) become god when they have communion. They are the apostles of Christ. They take the role of the spirit of christ inside them. That spirit is not their spirit; it is not Christ's spirit; it is god's spirit. They say "it is from christ" because of technicality. If you asked Jesus who his spirit is, he would not say himself, he would say of his father.
Have you ever wondered why the apostles wrote that god not Jesus wanted people to be baptized in the father, son, and holy spirit?
The father is the source. Without him, no Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is the comforter. Without the Spirit, no faith and salvation.
Jesus is the savior. Without god's son, who dies on the cross? Does god just disappear if there was no conceived son? Can god be conceived (human or not)?
Think about it. Every time you say "but he is human and he is god" that doesnt solve the issue. As long as you say he is god, it doesnt matter if he has a flesh and body. If he is perfect, it doesnt matter what he "looks" like.
This doesnt undermine Christianity.
The Eucharist is always Christ concreted by the spirit of his father (not of himself)
Baptism is always the spirit of Christ. Salvation through baptizm in water and spirit is through christ from god.
Repentence is always to christ. Everything has to be said through his name.
The problem is because the close connection Jesus and his father has, many Christians say he is his father. Yet, they know on earth, no matter the connection between father and son, they can distinguish between one and the other. Why not Christianity? What makes Christianity different when understanding the scripturally correct relationship the father has with his son and his son's role as given by his father?
@jaybird the quote feature on this site is confusing. It needs fixing so that you can highlight and just hit a quote button to separate parts of a post.
What you have done is right except that the forward slash should be taken off the first [ quote ] (no spaces) but left on the second as you have done.
Hope that helps.
What you have done is right except that the forward slash should be taken off the first [ quote ] (no spaces) but left on the second as you have done.
Hope that helps.