Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

Damn, you could fool me there. If you do, you sure are NOT showing any signs of having understood.

Hebrews 1:8 was quoting Psalm 45:6-7, and making slight changes to showcase Jesus as God DO NOT make Jesus God.

Any verse/passage that DO NOT CONTRADICT what God Almighty already DECLARED OF HIMSELF, and of what Jesus already said of himself, can be accepted as true.

Are you a scriptwriter?? Hollywood could use your talent!

Don’t kid yourself, buddy.

Am I having a conversation with a kid here???

Show you what?? I think I have shown you everything that needs to be shown but, you keep harping the same old questions over and over again like a broken record. Move on, buddy!

As I said earlier, you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to the scripture.

As usual, ‘spitting’ nonsense again!

Yeah, I think we're done.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then please present your non-circular reasoning.

I don't have any reasoning since I did not do the research on how the Bible was compiled.
I rely upon biblical scholars and historians who have done extensive research.

This statement is an unevidenced proclamation that lacks context. Let's give it some.

The apostles I am referring to are the NT apostles, the apostles of Jesus.

Jesus is the Son of God. He is a prophet of God, and as the Son of God, He is God.

A prophet that does not come from God has no authority, and does not need to be recognized by any apostle, any teacher, or any believer of God. That is something 1Corinthians 14:36-38 makes clear. Not all prophets are from God. Some prophets are from God, some simply believe they are, and some prophets come from other sources. The bible refers to these prophets as false prophets, as the only true prophets are from God.

So YES. If the prophet is not from God, they may not voluntarily submit to an apostle who is from God.

And Yes, Paul was not only an apostle, but a prophet as well. ALL apostles are prophets, but not all prophets are apostles, because ALL apostles are called by Jesus, sent by Jesus, and, after his death and resurrection, were guided by the Helper Jesus sent, the Holy Spirit!

The acts of the apostles are recorded in the book of Acts. Paul had several acts recorded there. As for prophets, Ba'al has "prophets", Zeus has "prophets", Jupiter has prophets, but none of them have apostles.

They do, but only if the prophet is also an apostle. There is no instance of a prophet who is not apostle correcting an apostle in the New Testament. But there are instances of apostles correcting other apostles.

Incorrect.

The apostles performed miracles and signs, and they were guided by the Helper, the Holy Spirit. They are apostles and prophets.

You have your beliefs and I have mine.
You are free to believe whatever you want to believe and I am not going to argue about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Proof texts"

I appreciate all the proof text @Trailblazer, but these "proof-texts" were answered previously, If not by me then by others. Unfortunately we do not get much in the way of a response. A little time goes by, we get asked about them again, we answer them again, we get no response, a little time goes by, we get asked about them again, we answer the again....
On and on it goes!

So here are a few I've posted which I'll post again. Find your favorite proof text, and see the rebuttal below. No need for me to repost them again.

However, If there's a verse missing, let me know. If it hasn't been addressed by anyone previously I'll make a reply.

I am not going to argue about verses and what they mean because they mean different things to different people.
As such they are proof of nothing.

If you want to believe that Jesus is God you are welcome to that belief, but I will never share that belief.
I could use the Bible to show why Jesus is not God, but what would be the point? You are going to believe what you believe.

 

[blü 2]

Who do you say, or who do you believe Christians should say Jesus was before "being found in human form”?

As your NT will readily affirm, the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John ─ unlike the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew and Luke ─ pre-existed in heaven with God and (regardless of what Genesis says) created the material universe. Both Paul and the author of John were influenced by such gnostic ideas.

It might help our readers if you could elaborate a bit more on the proper understanding of who Jesus was according to this particular verse.

Again, as you likely know, this is from the 'kenosis hymn' Philippians 2:5-11, which I read is in poetic form ie conforms to Greek scansion, and has given rise to the hypothesis that Paul is quoting someone else's verse, that of an earlier Christian. As I said above, Paul thought Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God as a favored being, I imagine of rank higher than the angels, and here he 'empties himself' (the kenosis of the title) in order to become an earthling. Paul, like John, never says just how that coming to earth was accomplished, but both leave the little clue that Jesus was descended from David (ie messiah-fit).

Above every name? Now that’s interesting!

That doesn't place Jesus above God. All five versions of Jesus in the NT state that they're not God and never claim to be God. Jesus doesn't become God till the 4th century CE when the Trinity doctrine becomes orthodoxy.

Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear. Isaiah 45:23

That looks like we will give the same worship to Jesus that we give God.

I set out here >Jesus Failed Right?< some of the denials by Jesus that he's God. And I set out some of the problems with the later Trinity doctrine here >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<.

"Before" means Jesus is eternal and not created. By him all things consist: He is our Maker.

Only the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-existed in heaven and created the material universe. For their version of God, God is exquisitely pure spirit, who'd never sully [him]self with materiality, so it falls to the demiurge (>Demiurge - Wikipedia<) to do so instead, This links with the idea also found in John that God being so staggeringly remote from us, we need an intermediary who is Jesus. The synoptic Jesuses have no such problem, of course and I take it their followers continued to pray to God directly in the Jewish manner.

What "fulness?" you might ask. This would be the fullness of deity, just as scripture says:
“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” Colossians 2:9

Yes, the King is present in the form of [his] envoy.

This is important! Note Jesus specifically refers to himself as the Son of man here, and not Son of God.

As you know, in the NT just who is the 'Son of Man' is ambiguous. Sometimes Jesus is plainly referring to himself, and sometimes Jesus is plainly referring to someone else, depending on which of the five versions of Jesus it is.

The Son of man is fully man and has to be given authority to forgive. After all, Jesus, as son of man, is only man, and man cannot forgive his own sins.

As the Son of God, he's always had that authority.

He is of course the son of God in three distinct senses in the NT. Paul's and John's Jesuses were created by God in heaven as I said. Matthew's and Luke's Jesuses were the result of God's insemination of a virgin, whereby Jesus acquired his Y-chomosome. But Mark's Jesus, the gospel's prototype, is just an ordinary Jewish male until his baptism by JtB, at which point the heavens open and God adopts him as [his] son in the same manner as [he] had earlier adopted David as his son (Psalm 2:7, affirmed Acts 13:33).

One more point: Jesus has full authority to forgive sins. It's not the Father forgiving sins "through" Jesus but Jesus forgiving those he wishes to forgive. There is no "In the name of the Lord" prefix that Jesus has to use here, but it all to the glory of the Father because it was the Father who sent him.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ...

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.

John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father but by me.” (Incompatible with triune concept,)

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

Of course! When you see Jesus you have seen the Father. (See John 14:9)
Again, is Jesus Lord, an is he the "one", or do we have two separate and distinct Lords?
I and the Father are one. (John 10:30)

You stopped reading too soon. John 17 explains this idea more fully ─ that gnostic touch I mentioned of God being so remote from the material world that an intermediary is required.

Please elaborate and tell us why you believe Jesus is no good, and just where he admits to being no good in this verse.

Luke's Jesus is admonishing the speaker for assuming that Jesus is good, whereas God, says Luke's Jesus, is the only one who's good. You have Jesus' word for it, not mine.

If you disagree, please quote me Paul saying Jesus is God, the Jesus of Mark saying "I am God", the Jesus of Matthew saying "I am God", the Jesus of Luke saying "I am God", and the Jesus of John saying "I am God". (And skip the "Before Abraham was, I am" nonsense ─ that's John's Jesus, who pre-existed in heaven and created the material universe, so of course he was around long before Abraham. Read the context of his statement too, and the express denials such as I've mentioned above.

If your premise is correct, the verse should read “No one is good but the Father alone.”

The God of the NT doesn't become "God the Father" until the adoption of the Trinity doctrine in the 4th century. Until then [he]'s the only God, just like the Jewish God. There is of course no hint of Trinitarian theology in the NT, where as I tire of pointing out to you, Jesus is merely God's envoy.

The relevant texts read

Mark 10:18 ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτῷ τί με λέγεις ἀγαθόν οὐδεὶς ἀγαθὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς ὁ θεός

Luke 18:19 εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς τί με λέγεις ἀγαθόν οὐδεὶς ἀγαθὸς εἰ μὴ εἷς ὁ θεός​

where as you doubtless know εἷς means one, singly, only, alone.