Jesus is not God

[Soapy]

Then why should anyone care what you say?


You post more nonsense without a basis.

If you have a problem with anything @learner Daniel has posted, then please quote the portion that he posted and your reasoned argument against it.

Lacking that, your post consists of vitriol and nothing more.


I'll take a pass on that suggestion Soapy. After all, your prior suggestion what that we shouldn't care what anyone says, which of course would include your suggestion here.

I have no idea what "erroneous post" you are talking about and you are unable to articulate it. Considering that learner David did not make an erroneous post, I'll simply take another pass.

Please move on Soapy.


I haven't imagined this at all, so that shouldn't be too difficult.



Okay.


It may seem like that to you, but that would only be an error on your part.



God is triune. You are triune (body, soul, spirit). Our observable reality is triune (space, time, matter). (Yahweh is not triune, He is spirit. A Yahweh God in 3 persons is Modalism and has nothing to do with the Trinity.

I recommended a good book on the Trinity to Jerry Myers and I recommend the same to you. There are plenty of them out there, just make sure it's from a reputable, peered review source.

Oeste said:
The Father is God, and the Spirit is God, but this thread is specifically about Jesus.

What on earth gives you the idea the Spirit has been 'relegated to oblivion'???

The thread theme claims "Jesus is not God" and not "The Holy Spirit is not God". If it were about the Spirit, we would talk more about the Spirit, but that is NOT thread theme.

When you cannot follow thread theme it gives the reader little confidence that you can follow scripture @Soapy. If the OP wanted to include the Spirit, he/she would have included it. I did not write the OP, and if you cannot understand something as basic as that, I see little need for continued discussion.

If you are sticking to ‘The thread is about Jesus’ why are you talking about The Father?? Gotcha!!

The rest of your post is just, in my mind, a justification for your false belief. The first part about learner David is about the fact that expecting me to read other people’s posts that contain even greater nonsense than what you wrote, is a worthless pursuit. In the case of ‘Why should any one read my posts, then’ (paraphrased) is that what I write is true and honest (the same thing!) and from scriptures which has not been modified (aka: ‘Anyone who adds of removes even a single word from the book of God…!’ (Paraphrased). There are many scriptures that have been modified by the trinitarian church in order to attempt to credit a trinity in the ONE GOD!! However, God has given believers the ability to decipher these false verses back to their original true meaning.

Can I ask you… Do you not believe, then, that when Jesus Christ warned that there would be alterations (addition and subtractions) from the Scriptures - that those who do it would be subject to eternal punishment?

If you do believe what Jesus Christ warned us of, can you give an example of s verse that has been, in your opinion, been altered in an attempt to create an illusion surrounding the true Scriptures?

I’ll help you to start:

• ‘For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood--and these are three in one.’ (1 John 5:7-8)

Continue, please…


Oh, by the way… Man is BODY and SPIRIT… only!

The SOUL, that you erroneously speak of, is the PERSON.

‘Soul’ is just the HEBREW (anglicised) word for the equivalent: ‘Person’ (Latinised/Anglicised of: ‘Prosopon’)

Example:

• ‘The Soul that sinners shall die’
• ‘The Person that sinners shall die’

• …God blew the breath of life into THE BODY … and Adam became a LIVING SOUL’
• Adam’s BODY was inert, lifeless, until the SPIRIT was put into it by God. Consequently, Adam became a LIVING PERSON.

• There was not a single SOUL in the room
• There was not a single PERSON in the room

• At death of man, the SPIRIT leaves his BODY which makes him a dead SOUL
• At death of man, the SPIRIT leaves his BODY which makes him a dead PERSON

A PERSON/SOUL is A BODY and SPIRIT.
A SOUL is not ANOTHER part of a Person!!

 

[Oeste]

No, Jesus is NOT Lord and God. He’s only ‘L/lord’, NOT God.

We went through this before.

Jesus was not awarded any worldly secular honors so he is not a Lord in the secular sense. This leaves Lord in the spiritual sense, and we only have only one spiritual Lord.

You give no basis for your two Lord theory.

Thomas’ ‘My Lord and my God!’ is an exclamation of shock and disbelief to see his beloved rabbi...

So after Jesus appears to him, after Thomas thinks he's a ghost, after Jesus denies he's a ghost, and after Thomas places his hands on him to feel Jesus's wounds, your theory is that that this somehow VERIFIED Thomas's initial DISBELIEF???

Obviously you have obtained a deep misunderstanding of the scriptural account and need much more than a good book on the Trinity.

Thomas went from a state of disbelief to belief, not from disbelief to MORE disbelief @JerryMyers. Please read this biblical account again. You'll notice Thomas's statement of "My Lord and my God" comes AFTER his examination of Jesus, not before.

In fact, Jesus CONFIRMS that Thomas went from disbelief to belief:

27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20​

Your theory that this is somehow a statement of disbelief by Thomas is unsupported and refuted by scripture.

 

[Oeste]

If you are sticking to ‘The thread is about Jesus’ why are you talking about The Father?? Gotcha!!

Because I am responding to posts about the Father, just as I had to respond to your post about the Holy Spirit.

The rest of your post is just, in my mind, a justification for your false belief. The first part about learner David is about the fact that expecting me to read other people’s posts that contain even greater nonsense than what you wrote, is a worthless pursuit

If you cannot respect the posts of others @Soapy, then do not expect anyone here to respect yours.

Your statement is simply a bitter aftertaste from fruite of your own making. You claim we post "nonsense" but you show no credible basis for it. We get your opinion but it is not substantive.

There are many scriptures that have been modified by the trinitarian church in order to attempt to credit a trinity in the ONE GOD!! However, God has given believers the ability to decipher these false verses back to their original true meaning.

Sounds like you're convinced our current canon is a mixture of truth and lies because you don't agree with it, and you feel it should be changed to something more to your liking?

I’ll help you to start:

• ‘For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood--and these are three in one.’ (1 John 5:7-8)

Continue, please…

These verses are not relevant to the discussion or to the OP's assertion. They are simply a diversion.

I am not posting here to show what the vast majority of Christians already believe...that Jesus is God.

I am posting here to ask what evidence there is that "Jesus is not God". Do you have any such evidence or not?

 

[Oeste]

I have already told you, yes, God Almighty is NOT coming back because He NEVER LEFT,

Okay, but remember, you've already defined "God Almighty" as the Father only.

and yes Jesus is coming for the second time and he’s coming back the same way he left – as a man, or if you prefer, the son of man, but definitely, NOT as God because Jesus NEVER is, NEVER was GOD!

I am afraid scripture disagrees with you.

You have already told us the Father never left, but scripture tells us that the "one coming" is the ALPHA and OMEGA.

You apparently MISSED this even though @learner Daniel was kind enough to post it in rather large letters for all to see. Here, let me post it again:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega (the Beginning and the End); the One who was, the One who is, and the One coming; the Almighty” (Rev 1:7-8)​

Since you state the Father never left, that leaves Jesus as the one "who comes", unless you have another Almighty God in mind.

The issue of whether Jesus is God is resolved as Yes, whereas the OP's claim that Jesus is not God is unsubstantiated and unproven.

 

[Eli G]

... I am posting here to ask what evidence there is that "Jesus is not God". Do you have any such evidence or not?

It depends on what meaning of the word "god" you are referring to.

If you mean that Jesus is a divine being and can be called a god in the sense that he is not unique, the Bible says that he is (John 1:18).

If you mean in the sense of Supreme Authority of the Universe, to whom an exclusive kind of worship is due, then the Bible clearly states that he is not. It's simple: the Most High God has no person above Him to whom He can render any kind of worship like being superior to himself..

Heb. 6:13 For when God made his promise to Abraham, since he could not swear by anyone greater, he swore by himself

That is the reason why when the Bible refers to GOD in the Supreme sense, it calls Him "God of gods." There may be many gods in a non-unique sense, but only one God can be above them all, and if those gods were to call upon GOD, the only one they would call upon would be the God who is above them all as the highest person in authority in the entire Universe.

Since Jesus clearly says that he has one God, who is also his Father, it cannot be that Jesus is the God of gods to whom the Scripture refers.

Rev. 3:12 The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

The God of gods, in addition to being the one we call "Father in heaven," has his personal name, which in Hebrew is the well-known Tetragrammaton, and which has been translated, like the proper name of Jesus, into all the languages of the world. In English, it has been translated as Jehovah... and it is He and no one else, the source of all the authority that Jesus has received and can now wield.

Matt. 28:8 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”

Eph. 1:20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

Phil. 2:9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name

So, does Scripture really teach that Jesus is the Most High of the entire Universe? The answer is NO.

1 Cor. 15:27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

 

[Oeste]

Rev. 8:1 is about God Almighty, NOT Jesus.

It's about Jesus.

‘He who is, who was, and who to come’ is a reference to the present, the past, and the future.

Well this is easy, since by your own stated standard, we see the same reference to Jesus.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8)​

Jesus, ad the Son of God does not change. It is only as the Son of Man that Jesus changed. If Jesus were merely man, Hebrews 13:8 would not apply.

It’s the same as an MMA Champion fighter claiming, “I am the best, he who is, who was, and who is to come, the Greatest!

Not quite. An MMA champion making empty boasts cannot be compared to either the Son of God or the Son of Man.

 

[learner Daniel]

No, Jesus is NOT Lord and God. He’s only ‘L/lord’, NOT God.

Thomas’ ‘My Lord and my God!’ is an exclamation of shock and disbelief to see his beloved rabbi (who the Jews refer to as ‘Lord’) standing in front of him unharmed and alive. There’s no reason to believe Thomas was calling Jesus his God. Just last month, I met an old friend whom I had not seen for the last 10-15 years, and my reaction upon seeing him was “Stevie, it’s really you…. and my God!!”. Was I calling my friend, Stevie literally, my God?? Obviously, not!!

After all, it would not make any sense, after many years of living and walking with Jesus, only Thomas saw Jesus as God while none of the other disciples saw Jesus as God.

You want to show me from the scripture where the other disciples of Jesus called him ‘Lord and God’ too???

Ah, it is an exclamation of belief.

 

[learner Daniel]

I have already told you, yes, God Almighty is NOT coming back because He NEVER LEFT, and yes Jesus is coming for the second time and he’s coming back the same way he left – as a man, or if you prefer, the son of man, but definitely, NOT as God because Jesus NEVER is, NEVER was GOD!

As for all those passages you quoted above, do you want to explain them and state your points instead of just quoting?? Anyone can 'copy and paste' verses.

Did you really read the verses I posted? Even the ones on Blasphemy and stoning?

 

[learner Daniel]

I wish you do have a time machine so you can travel back to hear from the mouth of Jesus himself denying he’s ever God! The scripture already narrated the story of Jesus' denial of claiming to be God, but you don’t believe him, but instead you believe the Jews who claimed Jesus had claimed to be God! You sure you follow Jesus??

John 8 and 10 or did you miss the times where the Jewish People were going to stone him for claiming to be God?

Matthew 26:65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Mark 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[learner Daniel]

I wish you do have a time machine so you can travel back to hear from the mouth of Jesus himself denying he’s ever God! The scripture already narrated the story of Jesus' denial of claiming to be God, but you don’t believe him, but instead you believe the Jews who claimed Jesus had claimed to be God! You sure you follow Jesus??

 

[learner Daniel]

We went through this before.

Jesus was not awarded any worldly secular honors so he is not a Lord in the secular sense. This leaves Lord in the spiritual sense, and we only have only one spiritual Lord.

You give no basis for your two Lord theory.



So after Jesus appears to him, after Thomas thinks he's a ghost, after Jesus denies he's a ghost, and after Thomas places his hands on him to feel Jesus's wounds, your theory is that that this somehow VERIFIED Thomas's initial DISBELIEF???

Obviously you have obtained a deep misunderstanding of the scriptural account and need much more than a good book on the Trinity.

Thomas went from a state of disbelief to belief, not from disbelief to MORE disbelief @JerryMyers. Please read this biblical account again. You'll notice Thomas's statement of "My Lord and my God" comes AFTER his examination of Jesus, not before.

In fact, Jesus CONFIRMS that Thomas went from disbelief to belief:

27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20​

Your theory that this is somehow a statement of disbelief by Thomas is unsupported and refuted by scripture.

two Lord theory???

 

[learner Daniel]

It's about Jesus.


Well this is easy, since by your own stated standard, we see the same reference to Jesus.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8)​

Jesus, ad the Son of God does not change. It is only as the Son of Man that Jesus changed. If Jesus were merely man, Hebrews 13:8 would not apply.



Not quite. An MMA champion making empty boasts cannot be compared to either the Son of God or the Son of Man.

Hebrews 1
Easy-to-Read Version
God Has Spoken Through His Son
1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side[a] of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names.

5 God never said this to any of the angels:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”

God also never said about an angel,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my son.”

6 And then, when God presents his firstborn Son to the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 This is what God said about the angels:

“He changes his angels into winds[d]
and his servants into flaming fire.”

8 But this is what he said about his Son:

“God, your kingdom will last forever and ever.
You use your authority for justice.
9 You love what is right and hate what is wrong.
So God, your God, has chosen you,
giving you more honor and joy than anyone like you.”

10 God also said,

“O Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
and your hands made the sky.
11 These things will disappear, but you will stay.
They will all wear out like old clothes.
12 You will fold them up like a coat,
and they will be changed like clothes.
But you never change,
and your life will never end.”

13 And God never said this to an angel:

“Sit at my right side
until I put your enemies under your power.[e]”

14 All the angels are spirits who serve God and are sent to help those who will receive salvation.

 

[Eli G]

The question is: where did some people come up with the idea that Jesus has no authority above him, if we see it clearly everywhere in the Scriptures?

Who is that Jesus of these people, who is not the one actually described in the Bible?

 

[YoursTrue]

Archeology definitely speaks differently from any book.



By biblical I mean that which comes from the Christian canon. "Biblio" certainly has a global meaning of "books", but the domain of books discussed is reduced by this forum's structure (Religious Debates ->Scriptural Debates -> Biblical Debates). There are other religious organizations which espouse holy books, such as the Vedas, Dhammapada, Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, but they most likely have their own subforums.



"From the bottom" is where many preachers start and there is no better example than Christ in the NT, as that is where he started with us.
There are many Christian faiths on display in the Forum, and each has it own introduction for those interested and new in Christ. If you are saying that "Biblical Debates" might not be the best place to start for someone new to the Christians faith, I would agree with you.



Yes, because verse by verse is how I learned. Previously, it was a few verses here or there, always thrown in with a mountain of text designed to "properly frame and explain" whatever verse was being read.



Definitely not, but this forum appears to be limited to biblical debates and this thread as to whether Jesus is not God.











No, I'm not dumping on Social Scientists, lol. All I'm saying is that while science may have a branch that addresses certain phenomena (such as society) it has not, will not and should not give us moral solutions.

As an example, when the Athenians besieged the island of Keos, it sent the island into famine. As a survival measure, the natives voted to have everyone over the age of 60 to drink a potion of hemlock to help preserve the food supply. Some historians say this was a one time event, others a traditional event, and still others an

Here's something I'd like to consider, for you and others who might be interested. When God spoke to Moses and told him that he (Moses) would be like God to Pharaoh, what do you think He meant? In other words, how would Moses be "like God" to Pharaoh? I'd like to explore this a bit with you and others if possible. Exodus 7:1 says, "Then the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet."
New International Version
Now we know that the term written as LORD is a substitute for the name of God, YHWH or Jehovah. Most translations say something very similar at that text. So how would you say God told Moses He made him "like God" to Pharaoh? I think it's worth (at least for me) exploring a bit. Thanks.

 

[Oeste]

It depends on what meaning of the word "god" you are referring to.

Hi @Eli G ,

I am referring to the only true God:

Psalm 115:1
"There is only one true God".

Since there is only one, any other who proclaims to be God is a fraud.

If you mean that Jesus is a divine being and can be called a god in the sense that he is not unique, the Bible says that he is (John 1:18).

Any God but God is not a "true" God, as there is only one God, and there are no Gods before, besides, or after Him.

So while some may believe they're God, and while either are free to create their own God or Gods, any God but God comes under judgement by the one true God:

Psalm 82:1
God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

If you mean in the sense of Supreme Authority of the Universe, to whom an exclusive kind of worship is due, then the Bible clearly states that he is not. It's simple: the Most High God has no person above Him to whom He can render any kind of worship like being superior to himself..

I am not sure what you mean by "he is not".

Scripture tells us that our God is a jealous God, and that He demands ALL of our worship from us. As to any secular honors, I am sure you would agree that we are to give to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Since Jesus clearly says that he has one God, who is also his Father, it cannot be that Jesus is the God of gods to whom the Scripture refers.

Remember, Trinitarians believe Jesus is not only the Son of Man, he is the Son of God. He has a dual nature that is fully man and fully God.

So as the Son of Man he has one, true, supreme God because he is just a man. As the Son of God, He is God.

Matt. 28:8 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”

Eph. 1:20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come.

Phil. 2:9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name

All true for the incarnate Son of Man.

 

[learner Daniel]

wife is kicking me off

 

[Eli G]

Jesus talked about the only true God in John 17:3. If Jesus talked about his God, it is evident he is not that GOD.

Paul knew that "only true God" very well:

1 Cor. 8:5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him (...)

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.

Acts 24:14 But I do admit this to you, that according to the way that they call a sect, in this manner I am rendering sacred service to the God of my forefathers, as I believe all the things set forth in the Law and written in the Prophets.

 

[Oeste]

All true for the incarnate Son of Man.

Lol, I have to go too.

I'll get back as I can.

 

[learner Daniel]

Jesus talked about the only true God in John 17:3. If Jesus talked about his God, it is evident he is not that GOD.

Paul knew that "only true God" very well:

1 Cor. 8:5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him (...)

Rom. 3:29 Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of people of the nations? Yes, also of people of the nations. 30 Since God is one, he will declare circumcised people righteous as a result of faith and uncircumcised people righteous by means of their faith.

Acts 24:14 But I do admit this to you, that according to the way that they call a sect, in this manner I am rendering sacred service to the God of my forefathers, as I believe all the things set forth in the Law and written in the Prophets.

wrong, Jesus has the fullness of God indwelling him.

 

[Eli G]

God is a being, not a thing.

God holds the highest authority across the universe.

The authority Jesus possesses now was granted by God.

Jesus, as God's Son, is His heir.

The Gnostic "god" differs from the True person of God in heavens. That is not the God of the Bible whom Jesus calls God and Father, and with whom he speaks. The Gnostic god is not the Father of Jesus, but something unreal, imagined by philosophers and those who were guided by them after the apostles died; this god-substance was not taught by Jesus or by his followers.