Jesus is not God

[YoursTrue]

wrong, Jesus has the fullness of God indwelling him.

Well, how do you understand Exodus 7:1 where God told Moses He would make him a god (or as God) to Pharaoh? Depending on translation. Are you familiar with that scripture?
King James Bible
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

New King James Version
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet."

 

[JerryMyers]

We went through this before.

Jesus was not awarded any worldly secular honors so he is not a Lord in the secular sense. This leaves Lord in the spiritual sense, and we only have only one spiritual Lord.

You give no basis for your two Lord theory.

Yes, we went through this before, and you still ‘spit’ nonsense.

I have told you many times there is one LORD God, and there are many ‘L/lords’ which apply to human kings, men of authority. For example, in 1 Samuel 24:8, David refers to Saul as ‘my L/lord’. Which part you cannot understand??

So after Jesus appears to him, after Thomas thinks he's a ghost, after Jesus denies he's a ghost, and after Thomas places his hands on him to feel Jesus's wounds, your theory is that that this somehow VERIFIED Thomas's initial DISBELIEF???

Obviously you have obtained a deep misunderstanding of the scriptural account and need much more than a good book on the Trinity.

Obviously you have misread your scripture. Where in the scripture did it tell us Thomas thinks Jesus is a ghost??

And don’t talk to me about a ‘good’ book on the trinity if you cannot show me Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth from the scripture. Let me say it again, the trinity is a man-made doctrine and that’s why Jesus NEVER preached the trinity.

Thomas went from a state of disbelief to belief, not from disbelief to MORE disbelief @JerryMyers. Please read this biblical account again. You'll notice Thomas's statement of "My Lord and my God" comes AFTER his examination of Jesus, not before.

In fact, Jesus CONFIRMS that Thomas went from disbelief to belief:

27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas replied, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20
Your theory that this is somehow a statement of disbelief by Thomas is unsupported and refuted by scripture.

Stop putting your bias ‘spin’ into the scripture.

First of all, Thomas NEVER called Jesus his God. As a matter of fact, NONE of the disciples believed Jesus was God or called Jesus their God.
When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and Mary realized the man standing in front of her was Jesus, what did Mary cry out? She cried out “Rabboni!” meaning ‘Teacher’ NOT God (John 20:16). When Jesus appeared to his other disciples (John 20:19-23), did any of the disciples act or say anything that could have implied they believed Jesus was their God?? None, zilch, nada, keiner.
Common sense and logic will tell you if none of the disciples took Jesus as their God, then Thomas too could not be taking Jesus as his God, which means Thomas “My Lord and my God!” was Thomas reacting in shock and disbelief to see Jesus alive and unharmed.

The exclamation mark(!) tells us it’s a reaction of shock and disbelief. In writings, you don’t address or acknowledge God with an exclamation mark!!
You are not going to find the phrase ‘my God!’ (with an exclamation mark) anywhere in the whole Bible EXCEPT in John 20:28. Why? Because John 20:28 is a reaction of shock and disbelief, it’s NOT a confirmation Jesus is God.

 

[JerryMyers]

Okay, but remember, you've already defined "God Almighty" as the Father only.

Yes, Jesus is NOT the God Almighty, unless you think Jesus is a whacko who thinks he is his own father and prayed to himself.

I am afraid scripture disagrees with you.

You have already told us the Father never left, but scripture tells us that the "one coming" is the ALPHA and OMEGA.

You apparently MISSED this even though @learner Daniel was kind enough to post it in rather large letters for all to see. Here, let me post it again:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega (the Beginning and the End); the One who was, the One who is, and the One coming; the Almighty” (Rev 1:7-8)

I am afraid you are reading the scripture with a preconceived mind that Jesus is God when he’s NOT!

I have told learner Daniel, and I will tell you too, in Rev. 1:8 it was the Lord God talking, NOT Jesus. It’s clearly stated in Rev. 1:8 – “saith the Lord God”.

Also, earlier you can see in Rev. 1:4-5, you can see a clear distinction between the Lord God and Jesus that only those who refuse to accept the truth will miss it –

“………. Grace and peace to you from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness ……”.

There are 2 distinct beings here – one, the Lord God who is the present, the past (who was), and the future (who is to come), and two, Jesus Christ who is the faithful witness.

Discard your bias, and the truth will set you free.

Since you state the Father never left, that leaves Jesus as the one "who comes", unless you have another Almighty God in mind.

The issue of whether Jesus is God is resolved as Yes, whereas the OP's claim that Jesus is not God is unsubstantiated and unproven.

What ‘another Almighty God’ nonsense are you talking??

I have said many times the One and Only God Almighty is always here, NEVER left to be coming back, so, yes, Jesus is the one coming back, and he will come back the same as he left – a man, NOT God (never is, never was)!

 

[JerryMyers]

Well this is easy, since by your own stated standard, we see the same reference to Jesus.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8)

Jesus, ad the Son of God does not change. It is only as the Son of Man that Jesus changed. If Jesus were merely man, Hebrews 13:8 would not apply.

Why not?? Only your preconceived mindset said Hebrews 13:8 would not apply if Jesus was a man.
The truth is Jesus is a man, he will always be a man/son of man, a prophet of God who only spoke the Words of God yesterday, today, and forever.

Jesus referred to himself as 'the son of man' about 88 times in the scripture.
How many times in the scripture did Jesus refer to himself as S/son of God? Hardly! What does that tell you??

Not quite. An MMA champion making empty boasts cannot be compared to either the Son of God or the Son of Man.

When did I ever compare Jesus with an MMA champion???
Try to focus on what you read. No wonder you hardly understand your scripture and talk nonsense.

 

[JerryMyers]

Did you really read the verses I posted? Even the ones on Blasphemy and stoning?

Of course, I read them.

So you believe Jesus committed blasphemy??!
Or do you believe Jesus claimed he’s God but did not commit blasphemy?? Can you show me where in the scripture Jesus claimed he’s God??

 

[JerryMyers]

John 8 and 10 or did you miss the times where the Jewish People were going to stone him for claiming to be God?

Matthew 26:65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Mark 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 8
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

You want to explain how Jesus 'claimed' to be God in those passages you quoted???

 

[JerryMyers]

Ah, it is an exclamation of belief. View attachment 99935View attachment 99936View attachment 99937View attachment 99938

Exactly how I feel when reading your posts!!

 

[JerryMyers]

View attachment 99939

You want to explain this??? Or you are just good at 'copy and paste'???

 

[Oeste]

Yes, we went through this before, and you still ‘spit’ nonsense.

I have told you many times there is one LORD God,

If you actually believed this, then you would know Jesus is Lord.

We have ONE spiritual LORD, @JerryMyers, not many LORDS.

No matter which way you spell or obfuscate it, Jesus is Lord.

and there are many ‘L/lords’ which apply to human kings, men of authority. For example, in 1 Samuel 24:8, David refers to Saul as ‘my L/lord’. Which part you cannot understand??

When did human kings become our spiritual LORD?

And why do you constantly attempt to conflate or confuse the two?

Yes, there are secular lords of authority, but these are earthly, not spiritual sources. Jesus is Lord, but his authority did not arise from any secular province or domain. Jesus is Lord because our God is Lord, and our Lord is one just as our God is one.

He is our Lord God. This is not rocket science, and there is no need to pretend it is.

Let me say it again, the trinity is a man-made doctrine

Yes, you've said this many times but it comes replete with many misrepresentations about the trinity.

This thread is a declaration that Jesus is not God. So we don't have to talk about the trinity. We can simply discuss whether the OP is true or false.

We are now 125 pages in on this thread, and while we have shown, time and time again, that Jesus is God, you have shown no evidence that Jesus is not God. All you've managed to show is that Jesus is a man, something Christians, world wide, ALREADY AGREE ON!

Do you understand the evidence to show "Jesus is NOT God" will be DIFFERENT than the evidence needed to show "Jesus is Man" ???

First of all, Thomas NEVER called Jesus his God

Well let me stop you there.

Thomas clearly called Jesus his Lord and God.

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” John 27-28

So once again, we have evidence that Jesus is God, and are provided no evidence that he is not. Do you have evidence Jesus is man? Well so do I. What I'm looking for is evidence Jesus is not God.

Stop putting your bias ‘spin’ into the scripture.

What spin?

Again you claim this or that, but you evidence neither. You just claimed Thomas never called Jesus his God when scripture clearly shows he did.

THOMAS ANSWERED JESUS directly, JerryMyers. He didn't mumble to himself under his breath, nor is there any indication he suddenly looked up at the sky as if to speak to the Father. THAT WOULD BE EVIDENCE.

But unfortunately for you, Thomas addresses Jesus, and directs "My Lord and my God" to him.

Your arguments are opinions, nothing more. It's okay to have opinions. You have yours and I have mine. We all have opinions. But is you want to show "Jesus is not God", you will need to come to the table with a lot more than your opinion and a presupposition that our scripture is mixed with truth and lies.

The exclamation mark(!) tells us it’s a reaction of shock and disbelief. In writings, you don’t address or acknowledge God with an exclamation mark!!

There are no exclamation marks in Koine Greek @JerryMyers. Your argument is baseless, structured on supposed evidence that simply isn't there. Try reading it without the translator marks. What does John 20:28 tell you now?

Why? Because John 20:28 is a reaction of shock and disbelief, it’s NOT a confirmation Jesus is God.

There is no "disbelief" in Thomas at John 20:28. By this time, Thomas has seen Jesus and all disbelief from him is gone.

Again, your claim is refuted by scripture.

I have told learner Daniel, and I will tell you too, in Rev. 1:8 it was the Lord God talking, NOT Jesus. It’s clearly stated in Rev. 1:8 – “saith the Lord God”.

You are making your presupposed assumption again. He is "the one who is coming", and the one who is coming is the Almighty. The Lord God here is Jesus.

I have said many times the One and Only God Almighty is always here, NEVER left

We all agree that the Father has never left us.

What you fail to realize is that the Almighty is COMING, and He can't be COMING if He NEVER left.

Also, earlier you can see in Rev. 1:4-5, you can see a clear distinction between the Lord God and Jesus that only those who refuse to accept the truth will miss it –

The "distinction" you see is the dual nature of Christ. He is not only the Son of Man, but the Son of God.

(Rev 1:7-8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega (the Beginning and the End); the One who was, the One who is, and the One coming; the Almighty”​

​

Who is the one coming?​

​

Revelation 22:20: "He who testifies to these things says, 'Surely I am coming soon.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!"​

The FATHER IS NEVER THE "ONE COMING". THE ONE COMING IS OUR CREATOR, THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE ALMIGHTY.

You can shutter your eyes, hold to your preconception, and pretend not to see, or you can open them and simply read scripture, which clearly shows the dual nature of Jesus: fully God and fully man.

When you can present some evidence that Jesus is not God, something that exceeds the bounds of mere opinion, let the readers know. I am sure many would love to see it.

 

[YoursTrue]

So what do you think it means when God told Moses he would be a God or like God before Pharaoh? So far no answers...

 

[learner Daniel]

Well, how do you understand Exodus 7:1 where God told Moses He would make him a god (or as God) to Pharaoh? Depending on translation. Are you familiar with that scripture?
King James Bible
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

New King James Version
So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet."

I understand that being like God in authority to him.

 

[learner Daniel]

Yes, we went through this before, and you still ‘spit’ nonsense.

I have told you many times there is one LORD God, and there are many ‘L/lords’ which apply to human kings, men of authority. For example, in 1 Samuel 24:8, David refers to Saul as ‘my L/lord’. Which part you cannot understand??

Obviously you have misread your scripture. Where in the scripture did it tell us Thomas thinks Jesus is a ghost??

And don’t talk to me about a ‘good’ book on the trinity if you cannot show me Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth from the scripture. Let me say it again, the trinity is a man-made doctrine and that’s why Jesus NEVER preached the trinity.

Stop putting your bias ‘spin’ into the scripture.

First of all, Thomas NEVER called Jesus his God. As a matter of fact, NONE of the disciples believed Jesus was God or called Jesus their God.
When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and Mary realized the man standing in front of her was Jesus, what did Mary cry out? She cried out “Rabboni!” meaning ‘Teacher’ NOT God (John 20:16). When Jesus appeared to his other disciples (John 20:19-23), did any of the disciples act or say anything that could have implied they believed Jesus was their God?? None, zilch, nada, keiner.
Common sense and logic will tell you if none of the disciples took Jesus as their God, then Thomas too could not be taking Jesus as his God, which means Thomas “My Lord and my God!” was Thomas reacting in shock and disbelief to see Jesus alive and unharmed.

The exclamation mark(!) tells us it’s a reaction of shock and disbelief. In writings, you don’t address or acknowledge God with an exclamation mark!!
You are not going to find the phrase ‘my God!’ (with an exclamation mark) anywhere in the whole Bible EXCEPT in John 20:28. Why? Because John 20:28 is a reaction of shock and disbelief, it’s NOT a confirmation Jesus is God.

Someone claimed that Jesus was only resurrected as a ghost, spirit. He was responding to that.

 

[learner Daniel]

start at

• #2,484

wife is kicking me off

Chow all

 

[YoursTrue]

I understand that being like God in authority to him.

What do you mean by that? That sentence doesn't make much sense so please try to explain. In authority to who? Was Moses made by God to be a God to Pharaoh? Exodus 7:1.
King James Bible
"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."
So God made Moses a God to Pharaoh. I think I understand your statement. God made Moses to be over Pharaoh?

 

[Oeste]

I understand that being like God in authority to him.

Agreed!

What do you mean by that? That sentence doesn't make much sense so please try to explain. In authority to who? Was Moses made by God to be a God to Pharaoh? Exodus 7:1.

Reading the second verse will gain you the larger context.

God did not make Moses a God, as there is only one God and there are no "other Gods" besides the Lord. Also, a fair reading of the text shows that it was the Lord who pronounced judgment and worked plagues and wonders, and not some new God named Moses.

It is from Pharoah's perspective that Moses is God, because Yahweh makes him that way to Pharoah. As for Moses, he is to continue to do everything God commands him to do:

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country.

As stated by @learner Daniel, Moses has authority over Pharoah, but only to say and do what God command him to say and do. Pharoah's true God was and always remains Yahweh. Moses does not speak on his own authority, but speaks only the words God gives him, exactly as commanded, which makes Moses appear as God to Pharoah. Moses only speaks what God has authorized him to speak, he has no authority to speak on his own. Since it is actually God speaking when Moses speaks, to Pharoah Moses speaks as if God.

The reason God does this is in the text. Pharoah considers himself a God among Gods, so there is no need to bow his will to another God, especially one who does not acknowledge the might and power of Pharoah and the Egyptian Gods.

However, the only reason Pharoah has arrived at his position is through the grace of God, and not through himself or his imagined Gods.


“But for this purpose I have raised you up..." Yahweh, not Moses, Pharoah, or the Egyptian Gods raised Pharoah up.

" ...to show you my power,..." This is the power of the one true and only God, and not the power of Moses, Pharoah or any other God.

"... so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." His name is proclaimed because no other God could have redeemed His people.

"You are still exalting yourself against my people and will not let them go.” (Exodus 9:16-17) Rather than acknowledge, Pharoah brings himself into conflict with the one true God, which brings him, his magicians, and every supposed Egyptian God into judgement.

Judgement on the Egyptian gods

• Each of these plagues have connection to various Egyptian gods.
• The plague of blood was against Hapi and Osiris, the Egyptian gods of the Nile.
• The plague of frogs was against Heqet, the Egyptian god of fertility.
• The plague of dead livestock was against Apis, the god of livestock.
• The plague of darkness was against Ra, the god the sun.

Each plague is a strike against the false Gods of Egypt:

For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord". (Exodus 12:12)

Here, at the end of the Egyptian day, Pharoah finally sees the Hebrew Lord as God over all the "Gods" of Egypt. The final blow comes against the house of Pharoah itself despite the protection of Pharoah, his magicians, and the so-called Gods of Egypt. Pharoah cannot protect his first born son, yet the first born sons of all that have listened and heeded the word of God are spared.

 

[YoursTrue]

Agreed!


Reading the second verse will gain you the larger context.

God did not make Moses a God, as there is only one God and there are no "other Gods" besides the Lord. Also, a fair reading of the text shows that it was the Lord who pronounced judgment and worked plagues and wonders, and not some new God named Moses.

It is from Pharoah's perspective that Moses is God, because Yahweh makes him that way to Pharoah. As for Moses, he is to continue to do everything God commands him to do:

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country.

As stated by @learner Daniel, Moses has authority over Pharoah, but only to say and do what God command him to say and do. Pharoah's true God was and always remains Yahweh. Moses does not speak on his own authority, but speaks only the words God gives him, exactly as commanded, which makes Moses appear as God to Pharoah. Moses only speaks what God has authorized him to speak, he has no authority to speak on his own. Since it is actually God speaking when Moses speaks, to Pharoah Moses speaks as if God.

The reason God does this is in the text. Pharoah considers himself a God among Gods, so there is no need to bow his will to another God, especially one who does not acknowledge the might and power of Pharoah and the Egyptian Gods.

However, the only reason Pharoah has arrived at his position is through the grace of God, and not through himself or his imagined Gods.


“But for this purpose I have raised you up..." Yahweh, not Moses, Pharoah, or the Egyptian Gods raised Pharoah up.

" ...to show you my power,..." This is the power of the one true and only God, and not the power of Moses, Pharoah or any other God.

"... so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." His name is proclaimed because no other God could have redeemed His people.

"You are still exalting yourself against my people and will not let them go.” (Exodus 9:16-17) Rather than acknowledge, Pharoah brings himself into conflict with the one true God, which brings him, his magicians, and every supposed Egyptian God into judgement.

Judgement on the Egyptian gods

• Each of these plagues have connection to various Egyptian gods.
• The plague of blood was against Hapi and Osiris, the Egyptian gods of the Nile.
• The plague of frogs was against Heqet, the Egyptian god of fertility.
• The plague of dead livestock was against Apis, the god of livestock.
• The plague of darkness was against Ra, the god the sun.

Each plague is a strike against the false Gods of Egypt:

For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord". (Exodus 12:12)

Here, at the end of the Egyptian day, Pharoah finally sees the Hebrew Lord as God over all the "Gods" of Egypt. The final blow comes against the house of Pharoah itself despite the protection of Pharoah, his magicians, and the so-called Gods of Egypt. Pharoah cannot protect his first born son, yet the first born sons of all that have listened and heeded the word of God are spared.

God made Moses a god to Pharaoh. Therefore God can endow someone with special power. Including being a god in certain circumstances. Now what does that mean? Yes, God obviously granted Moses certain privileges. And yes, Pharaoh was considered a god, but not that as given by the Almighty God. There's more, but I'll leave it at that for the moment. Thank you.

 

[Oeste]

Quote

God made Moses a god to Pharaoh. Therefore God can endow someone with special power.

I am not sure what you mean by "special power", but the biblical text does not state Moses was endowed with special power.

There is no "fullness of deity dwelling in him", and while Moses may hold a staff, it is clear that God always holds the power.

Moses has authority over Pharoah, because it is the true God that gave Pharoah his authority, and God can raise up whomever he wants.

Including being a god in certain circumstances.

God made Moses as God to Pharoah, which is a lot different from saying God made Moses a God.
Pharoah had lots of Gods, but none of them were truly God. They were simply deemed Gods by Pharoah.

Now what does that mean? Yes, God obviously granted Moses certain privileges. And yes, Pharaoh was considered a god, but not that as given by the Almighty God. There's more, but I'll leave it at that for the moment. Thank you.

Remember, God does not share his glory with anyone, and there is always but one God. This was, is, and will always be true for everyone, including Pharoah.

 

[JerryMyers]

If you actually believed this, then you would know Jesus is Lord.
We have ONE spiritual LORD, @JerryMyers, not many LORDS.
No matter which way you spell or obfuscate it, Jesus is Lord.
When did human kings become our spiritual LORD?
And why do you constantly attempt to conflate or confuse the two?
Yes, there are secular lords of authority, but these are earthly, not spiritual sources. Jesus is Lord, but his authority did not arise from any secular province or domain. Jesus is Lord because our God is Lord, and our Lord is one just as our God is one.

He is our Lord God. This is not rocket science, and there is no need to pretend it is.

Your ‘proofs’ that Jesus is God only come from ‘other people’, NOT from God Almighty nor Jesus himself – that’s like saying Harris won the recent Presidency Election and the ‘proofs’ came from her supporters, NOT from the official Election Board Committee. This is not rocket science and there is no need to pretend it is. sop

Do you believe that everything that was written and spoken by various character figures is true just because those words are in the NT/scripture?? If you said yes, then you DO NOT know the objective of the scripture.

Yes, you've said this many times but it comes replete with many misrepresentations about the trinity.

This thread is a declaration that Jesus is not God. So we don't have to talk about the trinity. We can simply discuss whether the OP is true or false.

We are now 125 pages in on this thread, and while we have shown, time and time again, that Jesus is God,

Well, the OP is right, Jesus is NOT God unless you can provide evidence(s) that God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus, said/implied Jesus is God.

you have shown no evidence that Jesus is not God. All you've managed to show is that Jesus is a man, something Christians, world wide, ALREADY AGREE ON!

If God Almighty and His prophet Jesus NEVER said nor implied he (Jesus) is God, you’re telling me you need more evidence to show Jesus IS NOT God???! Are you implying to me you know God Almighty and His prophet Jesus MORE than they know themselves??

Do you understand the evidence to show "Jesus is NOT God" will be DIFFERENT than the evidence needed to show "Jesus is Man" ???

Do you have evidence Jesus is man? Well so do I. What I'm looking for is evidence Jesus is not God.

Of course.

Jesus is NOT God because God Almighty and His prophet Jesus NEVER said nor implied he (Jesus) is God.

Not only that, Jesus is NOT God because God is NOT a man nor God is a son of man (Numbers 23:19) – how many times did Jesus himself SPECIFICALLY say HE IS A SON OF MAN in the scripture??? I will tell you around 88 times!!

You must be spiritually blind if you believe Jesus is God!!

Well let me stop you there.

Thomas clearly called Jesus his Lord and God.

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” John 27-28

So once again, we have evidence that Jesus is God, and are provided no evidence that he is not. Do you have evidence Jesus is man? Well so do I. What I'm looking for is evidence Jesus is not God.

That’s NOT evidence ‘Jesus is God’ claim, that’s your misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding of that passage!

What spin?

Your so-called ‘evidence’ that Jesus is God – THAT spin!!

Again you claim this or that, but you evidence neither. You just claimed Thomas never called Jesus his God when scripture clearly shows he did.

THOMAS ANSWERED JESUS directly, JerryMyers. He didn't mumble to himself under his breath, nor is there any indication he suddenly looked up at the sky as if to speak to the Father. THAT WOULD BE EVIDENCE.

But unfortunately for you, Thomas addresses Jesus, and directs "My Lord and my God" to him.

The scripture just narrated to you the time when Thomas was shocked in disbelief to see Jesus alive when he, like all the people there, saw 'Jesus crucified and killed’!!

Unfortunately for you, you see that passage as Thomas calling Jesus his ‘God’ when that’s not what the scripture is telling you.

Wouldn’t you too be shocked in disbelief if you saw your friend alive and unharmed when the previous night you saw him stabbed to death in a back alley?? You will probably say “My God!” too.

Your arguments are opinions, nothing more. It's okay to have opinions. You have yours and I have mine. We all have opinions. But is you want to show "Jesus is not God", you will need to come to the table with a lot more than your opinion and a presupposition that our scripture is mixed with truth and lies.

Yes, let me say that again - your bible today is a mixture of truth and lies.

As for your ‘"Jesus is not God", you will need to come to the table with a lot more”, I have already done that but, here it is again in case you missed it –

Jesus is NOT God because God Almighty and His prophet Jesus NEVER said nor implied he (Jesus) is God.

Not only that, Jesus is NOT God because God is NOT a man nor a son of man (Numbers 23:19) – how many times did Jesus himself SPECIFICALLY said that HE IS A SON OF MAN??? I will tell you around 88 times!!

Why do you think Jesus had to reiterate so many times that he’s the son of man??

The logical answer to that is Jesus is fully aware that there are many people in his time and those who will come (the future) who worship/will worship him as God and he’s reminding these people of what is written in the scripture ‘God is NOT a man nor is God the son of man’ and he (Jesus) IS the son of man - Jesus himself said that!!

The illogical answer is ‘Jesus is fully man and fully God’. Try proving that nonsense from the Words of God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus!

There are no exclamation marks in Koine Greek @JerryMyers. Your argument is baseless, structured on supposed evidence that simply isn't there. Try reading it without the translator marks. What does John 20:28 tell you now?

Yes, while Koine Greek did not have a dedicated exclamation mark, the expression of strong feelings like shock and disbelief are often achieved through linguistic means rather than the use of punctuation marks such as ‘!’.

I don’t understand Koine Greek, BUT I am sure one can ‘feel’ the shock and disbelief in Thomas' words upon seeing Jesus alive while reading the Koine Greek version.

And your argument is baseless as there’s no distinction between CAPITAL letters and small letters in Koine Greek too. So what does John 20:28, Rev. 1:8 tell you now???

There is no "disbelief" in Thomas at John 20:28. By this time, Thomas has seen Jesus and all disbelief from him is gone.

Again, your claim is refuted by scripture.

Yes, after having seen Jesus alive and unharmed with his own eyes, Thomas' initial shock and disbelief turned to belief and relief.
Again, you proved you are spiritually blind when it comes to the scripture.

You are making your presupposed assumption again. He is "the one who is coming", and the one who is coming is the Almighty. The Lord God here is Jesus.

You are the one who’s making the presupposed assumption, ‘Lord God’ is always a reference to God Almighty, NEVER a reference to Jesus in the scripture.

We all agree that the Father has never left us.

Yes, that’s what I have been trying to tell you! So, what’s the problem??

The "distinction" you see is the dual nature of Christ. He is not only the Son of Man, but the Son of God.

As I said before, try to prove that ‘dual nature’ nonsense from the words of God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus! Good luck!

(Rev 1:7-8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega (the Beginning and the End); the One who was, the One who is, and the One coming; the Almighty”Who is the one coming?

I think you ‘unintentionally’ missed ‘Saith the Lord God’ from the passage you quoted above. It’s ok, we all ‘unintentionally’ miss a word, miss a phrase sometimes.. (wink, wink).

Revelation 22:20: "He who testifies to these things says, 'Surely I am coming soon.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!"
The FATHER IS NEVER THE "ONE COMING". THE ONE COMING IS OUR CREATOR, THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE ALMIGHTY.

You can shutter your eyes, hold to your preconception, and pretend not to see, or you can open them and simply read scripture, which clearly shows the dual nature of Jesus: fully God and fully man.

I already said Jesus, NOT God Almighty (God Almighty NEVER left, remember?), who will be coming the second time, and he will come back the same way as he left – as a man/son of man. NOT God (never is, never was). In Acts 1:11, it’s clearly stated Jesus will return in the same way he ascended into heaven. You think Jesus left as God and will return as God???!

Yes, you can also shutter your eyes, hold to your preconception, and pretend not to see as you always do.

When you can present some evidence that Jesus is not God, something that exceeds the bounds of mere opinion, let the readers know. I am sure many would love to see it.

I have already presented to you and the readers many times, but, here it is again -

Jesus is NOT God because God Almighty and His prophet Jesus NEVER said nor implied he (Jesus) is God.
Not only that, Jesus is NOT God because God is NOT a man nor a son of man (Numbers 23:19)

When you can present some evidence that ‘Jesus is God’, something that exceeds the bounds of mere opinion, let the readers know. I am sure I and many would love to see it.

 

[Oeste]

Your ‘proofs’ that Jesus is God only come from ‘other people’, NOT from God Almighty nor Jesus himself

This is "Biblical Debates" and my evidence comes from the bible. It's all the evidence needed.

– that’s like saying Harris won the recent Presidency Election and the ‘proofs’ came from her supporters, NOT from the official Election Board Committee.

I consider our biblical canon to be the "official" word of God, even if you do not.

This is not rocket science and there is no need to pretend it is. sop

This is biblical debates where the bible is discussed. The thread theme is "Jesus is not God". We have been patiently awaiting for you or perhaps one of your cohorts to evidence that he is not God. Instead, we are simply treated to a barrage of snipes and grumbles against our canon.

The onus is on you and others who believe Jesus is not God to evidence that Jesus is not God otherwise your claim that Jesus is not God is opinion. It's an assertion put forth that lacks sufficient foundation, and poses no credible argument.

So yes, this is not rocket science for us. It's simply an insurmountable threshold for you.

Do you believe that everything that was written and spoken by various character figures is true just because those words are in the NT/scripture?? If you said yes, then you DO NOT know the objective of the scripture.

Various "CHARACTER FIGURES"??​

This statement from you is not surprising as it simply mirrors statements you have made before.

It's apparent you do not hold to the veracity of scripture but have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah and his disciples. Therefore, what you consider "salvageable" from the Torah or NT are only those scriptures stamped "approved" by the Bahais.

"Except for what has been explained by Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean."*​

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"The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá’u’lláh."*​

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"We cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá’ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá’u’lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate."*​

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*Shoghi Effendi, Extracts From The Bahá’í Writings And From Letters Of The Guardian And The Universal House Of Justice On The Old And New Testaments Source​

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"When ‘Abdu’l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet." (Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ)​

The above quotes clearly explain why the Bahais consider some of our scripture authentic and some bogus, and why they attack writings from the apostles as less than authentic unless they are "the actual words of God or Jesus". But even here, it is subject to further interpretation by the Bahais. It also explains why you earlier alleged that some of our Old Testament had been "corrupted" by the "lying pens of the scribes".

So it matters not what we post in scripture. From you POV, it's all subject to the teachings of the Quran or Bahais. You will not believe Jesus is God until you find such a teaching has been made by the Bahaullah or the Abdul-Baha, which makes further discourse with you under the helm of "Biblical Debates" rather pointless. Nothing we post will be "authentic" enough because, as you say they were "...written and spoken by various character figures".

However, as I explained to you before, I am not here to convince you that our "character figures" have veracity or are authentic. I am here to have honest discourse, and I'm still waiting for someone to evidence, from the bible, that Jesus is not God. This means the entire canon is in play, and not just the cherry picked parts affirmed by the Quran or Bahaullah.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is "Biblical Debates" and my evidence comes from the bible. It's all the evidence needed.

There is not one single shred of evidence in the Bible that Jesus is God. That Jesus is God is a man-made Christian doctrine.

I consider our biblical canon to be the "official" word of God, even if you do not.

I do not consider the biblical canon to be the word of God because God did not write it, and there is absolutely no evidence that shows God inspired the writers of the Bible. As such, it is only a belief that some people hold.

This is biblical debates where the bible is discussed. The thread theme is "Jesus is not God". We have been patiently awaiting for you or perhaps one of your cohorts to evidence that he is not God. Instead, we are simply treated to a barrage of snipes and grumbles against our canon.

The onus is on you and others who believe Jesus is not God to evidence that Jesus is not God otherwise your claim that Jesus is not God is opinion. It's an assertion put forth that lacks sufficient foundation, and poses no credible argument.

So yes, this is not rocket science for us. It's simply an insurmountable threshold for you.

This is biblical debates where the bible is discussed. The thread theme is "Jesus is not God". We have been patiently awaiting for you or perhaps one of your cohorts to evidence that he is God. Instead, we are simply treated to a barrage of snipes and grumbles.

The onus is on you and others who believe Jesus is God to evidence that Jesus is God otherwise your claim that Jesus is God is opinion. It's an assertion put forth that lacks sufficient foundation, and poses no credible argument.

So yes, this is not rocket science for us. It's simply an insurmountable threshold for you to prove that Jesus is God using the Bible.

It's apparent you do not hold to the veracity of scripture but have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah and his disciples. Therefore, what you consider "salvageable" from the Torah or NT are only those scriptures stamped "approved" by the Bahais.

Where did you get the idea that @JerryMyers is a Baha'i? He does not have to be a Baha'i in order to believe that Jesus is not God. Lots of Christians believe that Jesus is not God.