Jesus is not God

[URAVIP2ME]

That was THOMAS’ misconception. It wasn’t scriptural.
Point of fact, none of the other ten disciples agreed with Thomas by virtue of the fact that none of them exclaimed the same claim.
In addition, Jesus TOLD Thomas, ‘Touch me and see that I am not a Spirit’…. GOD IS SPIRIT.
Jesus told Thomas that he, Jesus, is FLESH AND BONE… Man is Flesh and Bone.

After God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human ' spirit ' body - 1st Peter 3:18 B - Jesus alive in a spirit body
Before Jesus ascended to heaven Jesus used materialized bodies to appear to his followers
John 20:17 is before Jesus ascended, and ' flesh...' ( physical can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Cor. 15:50 )
Plus, a physical body can Not appear in a closed shut room - John 20:19, 26
Notice what Jesus already says at verse 17 before doubting Thomas' words at verse 28
Even on the NEWS we hear people exclaim , " Oh my God ! " in front of a reporter and we know the reporter is Not God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Many, many places in the Bible reveal that.
Would you prefer evidence from the Old Testament or the New?
Okay, there are so many places. But I will submit one noteble one - the Word who was God became flesh.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (John 1:1,14)
..........................................................................................................................................................................................

Why did you stop at verse 14 and did not continue to include verse 18 ? - John 1:18
Doesn't it say that No man has seen God at any time ________
People saw Jesus. Saw Jesus and lived - please see Exodus 33:20; 1st John 4:12; John 6:46

Plus, according to Psalm 90:2 God has No beginning. Meaning God was ' before ' any beginning
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but never ' before' the beginning as his God was
Plus, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12

 

[JerryMyers]

It appears it does since the words "God Jesus Christ" is clearly on the Mosaic. Whether anyone believes "Jesus is God" is up to the individual.

Let me say it again - The authenticated Meggido Mosaic with its inscription does not tell us Jesus is God.

In other words, the inscription “God Jesus” on the mosaic is NOT an affirmation Jesus is God, but it’s an affirmation that in the 3rd Century, there are group of people who believed Jesus is God.

If you are a highly respected man of authority living in the 3rd Century, you can have anything on the mosaic, you can even inscribe “God Oeste” on the mosaic if you want to, but that is NOT an affirmation Oeste is God, it’s just an affirmation that a man named Oeste, living in the 3rd Century believed he is God.

Neither "Trinity" or "Jesus is God" is a 4th century construct ordained by Constantine at Nicaea as some posters have postulate on this forum.

Well, the fact is a doctrine commandment of men does NOT and will NOT make Jesus, or anyone for that matter, God.

Certainly idol worship predates Christianity, but I see no connection with the Meggido Mosaic. Nothing suggests this early Christian church was worshiping idols All that was found were the inscriptions and table where the emblems were performed, and a mural of two fish in the center that symbolized Christian faith at the time. No images of animals or humans, and neither the mosaic, table or inscriptions can be considered idols.

Where did you get the notion I was saying the early Christian church was worshiping idols??
I am saying a 3rd Century inscription on a mosaic is NOT an affirmation Jesus is God just because the mosaic predates the 4th Century Nicaea Council, and likewise, idols-worshipping is NOT an affirmation idols are Gods just because idols-worshipping predates Christianity. Comprende??

So, other than you, nobody here is implying or suggesting the early Christian church was worshiping idols.

 

[JerryMyers]

Question 1: Logical Deduction

Here is a simple thought experiment about the nature of begotten things which I've presented previously.

The only begotten Son of Frog is Frog.
The only begotten Son of Dog is Dog.
The only begotten Son of Man is Man.
The only begotten Son of God is ___________?

Still at your ‘simple thought experiment’ nonsense??? I thought you had moved on from this.

Let me ask you a simple question – since it’s obvious a frog, a dog, and a man have to physically beget their respective other half to produce their respective kind, do you, really believe that God Almighty had to physically beget Mary to get the virgin Mary pregnant with Jesus??

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus was borne of Mary so he is man, and He is the only begotten of God, which means he is God.

It does? A King with great power can give his son power also. Jesus had a long time to get to know his Father in heaven.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Why did you stop at verse 14 and did not continue to include verse 18 ? - John 1:18

I tend to be verbose and have to exercise myself to be concise.
Now I'll look at your point about after verse 14.

Doesn't it say that No man has seen God at any time ________

Yes.
And now it is YOUR turn to continue.
No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

This was was a very bold thing for John to write under divine inspiration. Surely, John knew of instances of
people seeing God in the Hebrew Bible. Now John says we must forget about those seeings of God.
They are ALL superseded by the manifestation of God through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

Seeing God is seeing Jesus walk, eat, sleep, talk, work, be crucified, rise from the dead, ascend to Heaven again.
This seeing of the life of the Jesus transcends, supercedes all the seeings of God recorded in the Old Testament.

In his letter John continues that truth.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life
(And the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us);
That which we have seen and heard we report also to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. (1 John 1:1-3)

The uncreated divine Eternal life - the eternal Person is manifested in the total life of the man Jesus - the God-man Jesus.

People saw Jesus. Saw Jesus and lived - please see Exodus 33:20; 1st John 4:12; John 6:46

I appreciate any passages you recommend to me.
If your point is that Jesus could not be God because men saw Him and lived, you underestimate the power, extent, and effectiveness of
of God's redemption.

You will notice that in the Old Testament this power of redemption ALLOWING men to see God and live is PRE-FIGURED in cases.
You should understand that Christ is the centrality and circumference of the whole Bible.
So the seeing and living of say Isaiah when he saw God is a precurser to God's redemption allowing us to approach the infinite holiness, glory,
and righteousness of God. For example -

Then I [Isaiah] said,
Woe is me, for I am finished! / For I am a man of unclean lips, / And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell; / Yet my eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with an ember in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs.
And he touched my mouth with it and said,
Now that this has touched your lips, / Your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is purged. (Isa. 6:5-7)

The same with Jacob, the mother and father of Samson, the 70 elders who accompamied Moses to see God on Mt. Sinai.
You should now consider all these instances to foretell of Christ, Christ, Christ and His efficacious redemption.

Then we must go even further. His full salvation will save us to the uttermost. That is to match Him to be His collective
Bride and Wife- conformed to His image. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him even as He is.

Don't let me get too verbose. So much needs to be written about this.

Plus, according to Psalm 90:2 God has No beginning.

Yes. And the Word who was God became flesh. God the uncreated Creator took up the created man.
Man without contraversy is a created item. (Gen. 1:26)

So the God-man Jesus Christ is the Creator and the creature.

Do you know what the word "mingle" means? It means to combine two or more things
so that they remain distinguishable in the combination. In Jesus Christ we see the mingling of God and man.
We discern in Him both the uncreated Creator and the creature - the created human.

I will stop this post here. Your other point is not ignored.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Plus, according to Psalm 90:2 God has No beginning. Meaning God was ' before ' any beginning
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but never ' before' the beginning as his God was
Plus, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12

The Ruler, the Messiah has His goings forth from the days of ETERNITY.
He is the uncreated self existing God who incarnated to be a man in Bethlehem.

(But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, / So little to be among the thousands of Judah, / From you there will come forth to Me / He who is to be Ruler in Israel; / And His goings forth are from ancient times, / From the days of eternity.) (Micah 5:2)

I'll speak to the other point perhaps latter.

 

[Oeste]

Well, the fact is a doctrine commandment of men does NOT and will NOT make Jesus, or anyone for that matter, God.

I consider the NT as God breathed scripture...that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as promised and sent by Christ.

Still at your ‘simple thought experiment’ nonsense??? I thought you had moved on from this.

I find such 'nonsense' useful for logical deduction.

Let me ask you a simple question – since it’s obvious a frog, a dog, and a man have to physically beget their respective other half to produce their respective kind, do you, really believe that God Almighty had to physically beget Mary to get the virgin Mary pregnant with Jesus??

Simple question, but it has a long answer!

I have to sign off for awhile though, as I have a project that I have to be bright eyed and bushy tailed for tomorrow. I will be neither of course, but it will absorb a lot of my time, especially over the next two to three weeks, however I may get an opportunity to check in over the weekends.

You can find my views on how Mary was impregnated here:

If not, I'll be happy to answer any questions when I get back.

I would like to wish you and everyone else here a RF a safe and happy Thanksgiving. I know our JW friends don't celebrate it, so for them a blessed day.
Special thanks to @BrokenBread, @Feedmysheep, @learner Daniel and @Dimi95.

 

[Feedmysheep]

After God resurrected Jesus back to his pre-human ' spirit ' body - 1st Peter 3:18 B - Jesus alive in a spirit body

What resurrected had never before existed. So I believe He did not simply "go back" to what He was before.
Rather His resurrection is the introduction of something new and eternal. It was the birth of the Firstborn Son bringing
human nature back to the eternal throne of God.

Before Jesus ascended to heaven Jesus used materialized bodies to appear to his followers
John 20:17 is before Jesus ascended, and ' flesh...' ( physical can Not inherit the kingdom - 1st Cor. 15:50 )

What can inherit the kingdom was His new glorified body. This is not fully understood by us.
And it has not yet happened to us. So we speak by faith and not out of experience.

But He will transfigure the bodies of His redeemed (along with the transformation of their souls) to
be like He is now.
. . .
we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20b,21)

This transfiguration of the redeemed's body is also called "the redemption of our body."

And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:23)

Plus, a physical body can Not appear in a closed shut room - John 20:19, 26

Before His resurrection His physical body walked across the water which is also impossible to us.
That in resurrection He appeared suddenly within a locke room should not be any reason to doubt God's ability to
do whatever He needs to do.

Notice what Jesus already says at verse 17 before doubting Thomas' words at verse 28
Even on the NEWS we hear people exclaim , " Oh my God ! " in front of a reporter and we know the reporter is Not God.

Thomas was not lifting the Lord's name in vain as is often heard even among unbelievers.

And rather than correct Thomas He confirmed the truth of what Thomas had declared.
He was his Lord and his God.

Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed.
Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. (John 20:28,29)

Isn't the confession of "My Lord and my God!" different from just exclaiming "My God!" ?
Thomas's confession is 100% consistant with John's entire underlying theme of his Gospel.
Jesus Christ is the explanation, declaration, and definition of God.

No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:18)

 

[Muffled]

Aside: I dream the other day, that I had a time machine. So, Christians can travel back to hear Jesus and Paul in person.

We don't need a time machine; th epower of God is enough. At any rate God was there and is here now to confirm what was said.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What resurrected had never before existed. So I believe He did not simply "go back" to what He was before.
Rather His resurrection is the introduction of something new and eternal. It was the birth of the Firstborn Son bringing
human nature back to the eternal throne of God
What can inherit the kingdom was His new glorified body. This is not fully understood by us.
And it has not yet happened to us. So we speak by faith and not out of experience.
But He will transfigure the bodies of His redeemed (along with the transformation of their souls) to
be like He is now.
we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. (Phil. 3:20b,21)
This transfiguration of the redeemed's body is also called "the redemption of our body."
And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:23)
Before His resurrection His physical body walked across the water which is also impossible to us.
That in resurrection He appeared suddenly within a locke room should not be any reason to doubt God's ability to
do whatever He needs to do.
Thomas was not lifting the Lord's name in vain as is often heard even among unbelievers.
And rather than correct Thomas He confirmed the truth of what Thomas had declared.
He was his Lord and his God.
Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed.
Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. (John 20:28,29)
Isn't the confession of "My Lord and my God!" different from just exclaiming "My God!" ?
Thomas's confession is 100% consistant with John's entire underlying theme of his Gospel.
Jesus Christ is the explanation, declaration, and definition of God.
No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (John 1:18)

Right, No one has ever seen God (John 1:18; 1st John 4:12; Exodus 33:20) but people saw Jesus
Plus, dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself out of the grave (Acts 2:27) but his God resurrected dead Jesus
\/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
-> Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30,37; Romans 4:24, 10:9; Colossians 2:12 B; Ephesians 1:20; 1st Peter 1:21

Please notice at 1st Corinthians 15:20,23 that Jesus is the first fruit because Jesus was the first resurrected ( Not at his birth )

Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12

 

[Oeste]

Plus, according to Psalm 90:2 God has No beginning. Meaning God was ' before ' any beginning
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but never ' before' the beginning as his God was
Plus, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12

The Ruler, the Messiah has His goings forth from the days of ETERNITY.
He is the uncreated self existing God who incarnated to be a man in Bethlehem.

(But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, / So little to be among the thousands of Judah, / From you there will come forth to Me / He who is to be Ruler in Israel; / And His goings forth are from ancient times, / From the days of eternity.) (Micah 5:2)

I'll speak to the other point perhaps latter.

Excellent, biblically based point @Feedmysheep. I just wanted to add something before I get back into my day today:

Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but never ' before' the beginning as his God was

This is not exactly what the text is saying. It’s stating “IN THE BEGINNING” Jesus already “WAS”.


IN/BEGINNING

@URAVIP2ME:

I have a few moments, so I'm taking a little time away from my project (which I surely do not have on this shortened week) to comment on this, simply because this thread is so interesting, and many of the commenters bring up some very interesting point.

The way I see it, One cannot be “IN” anything unless there is SPACE.

And there is no “BEGINNING” without time.

Space by definition, begets "IN" or place, and "time" begets an instance, such as "BEGINNING".

To understand this in the way you have presented it, we would have to agree that the Father created space and time prior to His creation of Jesus as a spirit creature.

So our Order of Created Events would look something like this:

• Create Space
• Create Time
• Create Jesus “IN” (space) at the “BEGINNING” (time)

However, I do not see how this harmonizes with the scriptural text:

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (Colossians 1:17).​

Or even with the Watchtower’s unnecessary insertion of “other”

“He is before all other things, and by him all other things were made to exist” 1:17 NWT​

Obviously, Jesus is not "before all things" if he is after space and time, and space and time could not have been there if they are waiting for Jesus to create or make them exist as part of "all other things".

Secondly, if all things "hold together" because of Jesus, then space and time would have broken apart at the moment of the Father's creation unless he preexists space and time.

If you see a different order of events please post it, otherwise Jesus is eternal and not created once you place him above, rather than below, space and time.

Lastly, this conflicts with the Watchtower’s own definition of “firstborn” at (Col 1:15), as by their definition, He becomes the “thirdborn” rather than the “…’firstborn’ of all creation”.

When seen with @Feedmysheep’s quoted Micah 1:5, Christ is before all space and time, which means there is no time when he was not, and no space he wasn't already in. Jesus is prior to space, time, and even "all other things", including the beginning, and is thus uncreated and eternal.

The idea that the Father and Jesus need time and space to exist is a relic from the Old Watchtower days, where God was imagined to occupy a space and time inside our physical universe (Pleiades). I'm not saying this to boast, as there were many Jews and Christians who likely thought it possible for God to be physically contained inside an Arc. Today, we better understand that, regardless of where God decides to "dwell", the heavens and earth cannot contain Him:

But will God in very deed dwell on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built! (1Kings 8:27)​

I have a few full nights and days, and a holiday I fully intend to take advantage of, so I'll comment when I can, but it may take me awhile to respond.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If there is 'No beginning without time' then how does one relate to Psalm 90:2 that God is from everlasting
God was before anything else including pre-human heavenly Jesus who was "IN" the beginning but Not 'before ' the beginning of creation
For each count of time we can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever

Jesus as King governs from Heaven and Not on Earth - Rev. 20:6

 

[Oeste]

If there is 'No beginning without time' then how does one relate to Psalm 90:2 that God is from everlasting
God was before anything else including pre-human heavenly Jesus who was "IN" the beginning but Not 'before ' the beginning of creation

Time is created, God is not. Space is created, God is not. To have "In" you need space, to have a "beginning" you need time. Both are necessary for us as created beings, but neither are necessary for God.

God is eternal, before time, space, matter or any created thing. There is no time or space where God was not.

For each count of time we can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever

Then scripture lies, and there was never a "Beginning" for God to create anything. It also means time and space are uncreated, which is a viewpoint I do not believe the WT espouses.

Jesus as King governs from Heaven and Not on Earth - Rev. 20:6

Jerusalem descends, but that is another topic.

Good points to raise, but I gotta go!

 

[Feedmysheep]

Right, No one has ever seen God (John 1:18; 1st John 4:12; Exodus 33:20) but people saw Jesus
Plus, dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself out of the grave (Acts 2:27) but his God resurrected dead Jesus

Some of us have to take in the fullest scope of utterances in the Bible.
With your passages we also have Jesus He would raise up the body of His temple in three days.

Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (John 2:19)

My way has been to say "Amen!" to everything the Scripture says, not using one passage to surpress another.
Some of us take also into account that He was to OBEY the command to die and rise. This authority was given to Him.

No one takes it away from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. This commandment I received from My Father. (John 10:18)

The way of greatest benefit and greatest blessing for me is to always "Amen!" to whatever the Bible says.

In another few posts I will elaborate on the resurrection of Christ being the BIRTH of a new humanity of which He is the Head
and the Elder Brother. There is a distintion between Christ as "the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) and His being "the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead." (Col. 1:18)

And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things;

I would also like time to look up these wonderful verses which show ONE side of the two sided matter.
-> Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30,37; Romans 4:24, 10:9; Colossians 2:12 B; Ephesians 1:20; 1st Peter 1:21

Please notice at 1st Corinthians 15:20,23 that Jesus is the first fruit because Jesus was the first resurrected ( Not at his birth )

We'll come back to this.

Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12

We'll come back to this also for the fullest possible picture accounting for ALL of what the word of God has revealed.

 

[Feedmysheep]

If there is 'No beginning without time' then how does one relate to Psalm 90:2 that God is from everlasting
God was before anything else including pre-human heavenly Jesus who was "IN" the beginning but Not 'before ' the beginning of creation
For each count of time we can count both forwards and backwards forever and ever

Jesus as King governs from Heaven and Not on Earth - Rev. 20:6

Do you mean that after touching down on the Mt. of Olives and judging from the valley of Jehosaphat Jesus
will ascend back up to Heaven to govern?

My concept of Christ reigning with a heavenly reign over the earth does not call for Him to LEAVE the earth
again after having sat upon the throne of His glory in the Holy Land.

Then Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights in a day of battle.
And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split at its middle toward the east and toward the west into a very great valley, so that half of the mountain will remove to the north and half of it to the south. (Zech.14:3,4)

And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28)

 

[JerryMyers]

I consider the NT as God breathed scripture...that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as promised and sent by Christ.

The doctrine commandment of men will ALWAYS BE the commandment of men whether you believe the NT is God-breathed scripture or not.

Jesus himself, as narrated in the NT, said “In vain they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" which made it crystal clear that worshiping him (Jesus) as God IS a doctrine commandment of men and that’s exactly what you are preaching – the doctrine commandment of men!!

I find such 'nonsense' useful for logical deduction.

Well, there’s nothing logical about 'logical deduction' nonsense.

Simple question, but it has a long answer!

That’s ok, as long as it’s not the long ‘round and round’ nonsensical explanation.

You can find my views on how Mary was impregnated here:

There’s nothing in that video to suggest God physically impregnated Mary.
The conception of Jesus is described as a miraculous act by the Will of God through the Holy Spirit, NOT a physical begetting in the biological sense.

So, I don’t know from where you get this ‘Mary was physically impregnated by God’ view.
I don’t think mainstream Christianity shares your views either.

I have to sign off for awhile though, as I have a project that I have to be bright eyed and bushy tailed for tomorrow. I will be neither of course, but it will absorb a lot of my time, especially over the next two to three weeks, however I may get an opportunity to check in over the weekends.

No problem, Oeste.
Wish you success and all the best with your project. Stay safe, buddy.

 

[YoursTrue]

Do you mean that after touching down on the Mt. of Olives and judging from the valley of Jehosaphat Jesus
will ascend back up to Heaven to govern?

My concept of Christ reigning with a heavenly reign over the earth does not call for Him to LEAVE the earth
again after having sat upon the throne of His glory in the Holy Land.

Then Jehovah will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights in a day of battle.
And His feet will stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split at its middle toward the east and toward the west into a very great valley, so that half of the mountain will remove to the north and half of it to the south. (Zech.14:3,4)

And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:28)

Mark 14:62 - "I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” So Jesus would be sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One. There's the Mighty One and there's Jesus who is sitting at the Mighty One's right hand. Two. Not three.

 

[Soapy]

Many, many places in the Bible reveal that.
Would you prefer evidence from the Old Testament or the New?

Okay, there are so many places. But I will submit one noteble one - the Word who was God became flesh.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (John 1:1,14)

So GOD, who is three persons, and is PERFECTION and is IMMUTABLE, BECAME something that is IMPERFECT?… ONE PERSON of your three-person God became something LESS THAN PERFECTION??

AND yet GOD remained PERFECT and IMMUTABLE?!

I don’t understand how PERFECTION and IMMUTABLE can BECOME something else!!

In John Jesus would prefer that we believe His words that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.
But if we cannot believe His words, He advized us to let His works speak for themselves.
This is seen when Phillip requested that Jesus simply show them the Father.

Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father?

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves. (John 14:8-11)

I must suspend discussion now and come back to these points latter.

Yes, it is true that Jesus said that he is in the Father and the Father is in him…. Absolutely: ‘I and the Father are one [in agreement with each other]’.

It’s hardly a challenge of intellect to understand that, ‘To be in another and another in you’ means that you both agree with each other!

It’s hardly a challenge of intellect to understand that, ‘I and the Father are one’ means that you and your [Spiritual] Father agree with each other!

… WE ARE THE SAME IN WHAT WE BELIEVE…

What I’d like to know from you, then, is … What happened to your THIRD GOD…?

Jesus only claimed he is in the Father and the Father is in him… but your GOD is three so is Jesus in the SPIRIT OF THE FATHER … why didn’t Jesus say so if he was supposed to have been trying to convince his audience that he was indeed ALMIGHTY GOD…?

By the way, what is the difference between ‘ALMIGHTY GOD’, and ‘GOD’, such that Trinitarians rarely, if EVER, use the term ‘ALMIGHTY GOD’?

Oh, and please remember (if not done so already) to answer those other questions I asked you.

 

[Soapy]

No He is not less than God. He is God expressing Himself as a limited, created man.

So your GOD can be LIMITED, vulnerable, weak, ignorant, feeble, incapable, hungry, thirsty, tired, mutable, mortal?

Hmmm… Sounds the exact definition of a Pagan God.

You should know from the story of the fleeing prophet Elijah. God had to show him that He could not
only express Himself as a mighty fire that burns the earth or a mighty wind so strong as to toss about bolders.
He had to show Elijah that God could also express Himself in the still small voice in the human conscience.
First Kings 19:11-13.

This story of Elijah has a place in another discussion - but not here.

And everything you stated here is called a METAPHOR.

Not really difficult to understand!

So are you calling Jesus Christ, ‘A Metaphor’? Sounds like, imo, you are extremely confused in your terms and definitions of who or/and what you claim is your God AND your Christ!

By the way, is your Christ, also your God?

Everything in the Bible is sovery significant. God cannot only express Himself as the ultimate manifestation of authority.
He can also express Himself as the ultimate expression of submission.

Ha ha ha…. Which GOD, exactly, are you referring to?

Can you please, please, please, post a verse where the one true God; YAHWEH, SUBMITS himself to ANYONE?

He is not unGod because He expressed Himself as a submissive, obedient man.

What is ‘UnGod’? Do you mean ‘NOT GOD’?

The way I would put it is that it is "greater" that God be dispensed into man than God not be…. … That is dispense God into man for a mingling.

Nonsense… You may think you said something but in fact it makes no sense at all… GOD MADE man, GOD is already IN mankind : ‘Man was made in the image of God’.

The Trinity is what the Trinity does.

And what is that? What does THREE ALMIGHTIES do that ONE ALMIGHTY cannot?

We cannot seperate what the Triune God is from the plan, purpose, and operation of the Triune God.

Oh so funny… Whoever are you claiming, other than Satan and his ‘children’, ever tried to change God’s plans. Where are you going with this off-topic statement?

It is FOR the plan of God to have sons that He created all things. This is seen here -

Even as He [the Father] chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)

The strong implication here is that before God created the universe - laid the foundation of the world He had an
eternal plan. It is FOR this plan that God created all things including angels and the universe. That purpose being
to have sons who share in His life, nature, expression, and function.

To accomplish this eternal purpose He went on a journey which includes two "becames".
The Word became flesh - to accomplish the mingling of God and man for our eternal redemption.
The Man in resurrection became a divine life imparting Spirit to dispense all that He is into His redeemed people.

John 1:14 shows the first step - And the Word became flesh
First Corinthians 15:45 shows the second step - the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.

Amazing… THE FATHER CHOSE US before HE created the world…

Yes… THE FATHER created His Angels and ALL THINGS and then HUMANITY… Humanity IN HIS IMAGE and tested each and everyone as to conformity to HIS standards…

The first man who the Father created, Adam, fell to sin, lost conformity and the Father tried Adam’s offspring to see if any could resurrect conformity. However none were found after a given time. So the Father enacted his contingency, ‘Seed of a Woman’ plan. This plan was that a new creation of man would take place - Jesus.

Note that at his birth, the child is DESTINED TO BE CHRIST… The child was born HOLY (and therefore sinless) and WILL BE CALLED ‘The Son of God’.

It was 30 years later when the Father said to Jesus: ‘Thou art my Son in whom I am well pleased’ (quoted from Isaiah 42:1) and then the Father BAPTISTED (ANOINTED) JESUS WITH THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH so then Jesus BECAME ‘CHRIST’… Jesus Christ!

Note that for 30 years, Jesus did NOTHING, that was of note… He was being TAUGHT BY THE FATHER ALL HE WAS TO KNOW AND TO SAY… and then, after being TESTED / TEMPTED in the wilderness, Jesus returned and on the next sabbath, he stood up in his local synagogue and testified that THE FATHER HAD SENT HIM TO DECLARE the day of the Lord… the day of the Christ…:

• ‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,’ (Luke 4:18… plus vs. 19-20)
• ‘He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:21)

The day of the Lord: which Abraham had been shown in vision from the Father.

In your next post to me could you explain how Jehovah God came and had lunch with Abraham in Genesis 18?

May I suggest that when I ask a question of you, it is for you to answer to me. You are scared of answering, imo, because you cannot - turning the situation into asking me to answer to you during work with me - sorry!!

But, just to answer you do you don’t say I don’t answer you (which is what, imo, a great many Trinitarians do) I will tell you that ‘God did not have lunch with Abraham’.

The three persons were ANGELS whom God has given power and authority to carry out his desires…

GOD is not an angel.

GOD CREATES beings who carry out orders, commands, directives, FROM GOD.