Jesus is not god

[Sabour]

Explicit from what argument? From your premise “Jesus is not God”? I could make the same explicit argument against your premise “Jesus is not God” and that is, Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Will that makes your argument implicit by saying that my argument were more accurate? NO! You’re playing semantics here with your twisted interpretation of the bible that you said you are “NOT A BELIEVER IN THE BIBLE”.
You say “I am not a believer in the bible” but you are trying to disprove me with verses that came from the bible on which you have no interest or faith. How can you tell which verses are true from false if you don’t believe in the bible? Christianity is a revealed religion.

So that tell us there is a problem in the bible and it contradicts itself whether you like it or not.

My point is 100 % supported by the bible and by logic.

If you think your point is also supported by the bible, than face up the fact that your bible contradicts itself and has false teachings.

 

[Sabour]

You have to separate what Jesus said he was from what the authors of the NT Bible say he was.
Jesus himself did not know what he was

I stopped reading here

 

[JM2C]

Jesus peace be upon him was not crucified nor killed. That is what I believe.

However I am not arguing that point but the thread is about something else.

Let’s argue/debate anyway.

In the Koran it says:

4:157
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Compare that to these verses:

1Co 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Which one is the truth, your Koran or the Bible?


Since you have not answered me yet, let me ask you again, is Ishmael a direct ancestor of Muhammad, or can you trace Muhammad’s genealogy to Ishmael?

 

[savagewind]

Prophets are perfect.
1 Cor 15:3 is not true.
The book of Corinthians was not written by a prophet.

If prophets are perfect most of the New Testiment (or all of it) was not written by prophets and should not be believed it is from God. None of it is. Do true prophets quote it or believe any of it is God sent? WHY?

 

[Sabour]

Let’s argue/debate anyway.

In the Koran it says:

4:157
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Compare that to these verses:

1Co 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Which one is the truth, your Koran or the Bible?


Since you have not answered me yet, let me ask you again, is Ishmael a direct ancestor of Muhammad, or can you trace Muhammad’s genealogy to Ishmael?

Well since you want to conduct the debate that way than let me quote what Jesus peace be upon him said.

"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the prophets. I came not to destroy but rather to fulfill. For verily I tell you, not until all things be accomplished shall a single dot (jot, iota or tiny letter) in any way be lessened from the Law. And whoever breaks the least of the Commandments and teaches this will be the least in the Kingdom, but whoever keeps the Commandments and teaches this will be the highest in the Kingdom. And not unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharasees will you enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."Matthew 5:17-19

Compare it to what Christians believe and what Muslims believe.

Christians says you are saved by belief, muslims say you are saved by belief and deeds. Which one is closer to what Jesus peace be upon him said in keeping the commandments ?

Let us compare other verses in the Quraan and in the bible.

Quraan
2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

Bible
Jeremiah 8:8 “How can you say, ‘We are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with us’?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes
has made it into a lie.

Your question has no regards to our topic. You know my answer anyways

 

[Sabour]

Prophets are perfect.
1 Cor 15:3 is not true.
The book of Corinthians was not written by a prophet.

If prophets are perfect most of the New Testiment (or all of it) was not written by prophets and should not be believed it is from God. None of it is. Do true prophets quote it or believe any of it is God sent? WHY?

I agree about the NT.

Authors of the bible are not perfect and many opposed the message of Jesus peace be upon him

 

[savagewind]

I agree about the NT.

Authors of the bible are not perfect and many opposed the message of Jesus peace be upon him

Are prophets perfect?

 

[JM2C]

So that tell us there is a problem in the bible and it contradicts itself whether you like it or not.

It tells you nothing until you understand. How can you understand if it was not revealed to you?
Now, if you READ AND UNDERSTAND, God might open your heart spiritually to UNDERSTAND what you are READING and this is what we call revelation from God or God revealed it to you.
IOW, The things to be revealed by GOD are "unsearchable" because they are beyond the grasp of human knowledge.

1Co 2:9 However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”—
1Co 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

 

[JM2C]

My point is 100 % supported by the bible and by logic.

You are a funny guy.

I am not a believer in the bible, I don't take all of what the bible says.

”100% supported by the bible” on which you are not a believer. Where is the “LOGIC” to that my friend?

 

[JM2C]

If you think your point is also supported by the bible, than face up the fact that your bible contradicts itself and has false teachings.

”False teachings”? Coming from your religion? You can’t even trace where your religion came from.

 

[Sabour]

Are prophets perfect?

Well let me just state that my input on this subject would present my own understanding and I am not sure if it is 100 percent accurate.


We as humans have free will to do things or not to do. There are 2 ways one can follow. One is worshiping God and obeying the commandments and doing good deeds, the other way is going against the commandments or doing "bad" things and that is what I call sin.

We as humans are in constant fight with ourselves and try hard not to sin. Prohpets are humans. They also have desires.

Now let us go back when I said there are two ways. The idea that I said there are two ways is because God is telling us how to avoid sins. God is providing us with a way which is worshiping him. The more you worship Allah and do good deeds, the more you are in strength to follow the commandments and the more strength you will have to fight your "evil" desires. Because that will always remind you of Allah, heaven, rewards, and what will be waiting for you.


Prophets are people. They have desires. However, they are sharing the message of worshiping God. They are people who used to live the message they are sharing. The more you walk in that way, the less sins you would do.

But still prophets are humans.

For example, once a blind man came to the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and wanted to ask him a question. But the messenger frowned and turned away, I am not sure of the reason why. But some verses were revealed for our prophet on that incident.

80

1 The Prophet frowned and turned away

2 Because there came to him the blind man, [interrupting].

3 But what would make you perceive, [O Muhammad], that perhaps he might be purified

4 Or be reminded and the remembrance would benefit him?

Another example is that Adam ate from the tree,

Also Sahih International
11 47 [Noah] said, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from asking that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have mercy upon me, I will be among the losers."


However, all the prophets sins were minors. Not like the way most people sin because prophets used to live the message they shared with people. They are the most who worship God truly and do God deeds and be patient. They used to repent and ask for forgiveness directly. Besides they were chosen to be prophets and hence the information about who God is they provide us with is not something questioned. The only information we were given is what God wanted us to know and there could be no mistake otherwise they wouldn't have been chosen to be prophets.



Many scholars say on this that there sins are actually slight mistakes and forgetting or not knowing. So when it comes to telling us who God is and how we should follow God, yes they are perfect and they are people of example.

 

[Sabour]

It tells you nothing until you understand. How can you understand if it was not revealed to you?
Now, if you READ AND UNDERSTAND, God might open your heart spiritually to UNDERSTAND what you are READING and this is what we call revelation from God or God revealed it to you.
IOW, The things to be revealed by GOD are "unsearchable" because they are beyond the grasp of human knowledge.

1Co 2:9 However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”—
1Co 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

So Christianity, a religion which you claim is for mankind can only be understood by who it is revealed to?

You keep on claiming that it is from God, well what you claim has no weight if it is not backed up by proof.

Here is another proof, Jesus peace be upon him used to eat. Do you know that someone who eats is in need? Thus he also needs to go to the bathroom?

 

[Sabour]

You are a funny guy. ”100% supported by the bible” on which you are not a believer. Where is the “LOGIC” to that my friend?

Thank you

The logic is that a bible should talk to any person and give him answers whether he was a believer or if he was not a believer.

The logic is that God gave as mind to process things. If it was only about faith, God would have replaced our mind with more faith.

Logic is that if the Christianity is the way of life that God wants us to follow, than the bible should be its proof. It should not be against that.

 

[Harikrish]

But we know what Muslims think Jesus was.

ALLAH TOOK JESUS TO HEAVEN WHERE HE AWAITS UNTIL THE DAY OF JUDGMENT WHEN HE WILL RETURN TO EARTH (3,55). MUSLIM TRADITIONS TEACH THAT MUHAMMAD DIED NOT KNOWING IF HE WOULD BE JUDGED WORTHY TO ENTER PARADISE - WHERE GOD HAS ALREADY PLACED JESUS. MUHAMMAD IS DEAD AND BURIED IN SAUDI ARABIA. JESUS IS ALIVE BOTH WITH GOD IN HEAVEN (PARADISE) AND IN SPIRIT WITH HIS FOLLOWERS ON EARTH. (KORAN 3,55;4,158,159)

THIS IS THE GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS AND MUHAMMAD ACCORDING TO THE QURAN/KORAN. JESUS IS ALIVE IN HEAVEN WITH GOD AND MUHAMMAD IS DEAD AND BURIED. IN MEDINA, SAUDI ARABIA, STILL AWAITING GOD'S JUDGMENT.

 

[JM2C]

Well since you want to conduct the debate that way than let me quote what Jesus peace be upon him said.

"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the prophets. I came not to destroy but rather to fulfill. For verily I tell you, not until all things be accomplished shall a single dot (jot, iota or tiny letter) in any way be lessened from the Law. And whoever breaks the least of the Commandments and teaches this will be the least in the Kingdom, but whoever keeps the Commandments and teaches this will be the highest in the Kingdom. And not unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharasees will you enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."Matthew 5:17-19

Compare it to what Christians believe and what Muslims believe.

Christians says you are saved by belief, muslims say you are saved by belief and deeds. Which one is closer to what Jesus peace be upon him said in keeping the commandments?

You are really confusing me, or you are the one who is really confused here. The commandments the Lord Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:17-19 was in reference to the Law of Moses. “Whoever keeps the commandments”, I.E. or EXPLICITY [your favorite word], the Law of Moses “and teaches these commands will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven” Now, since no one can keep the whole Law of Moses [READ & UNDERSTAND Romans 3:9-11] perfectly then no one can reach the Kingdom of Heaven. BTW, the Lord Jesus was talking to the Jews here and not to the Gentiles. Gentiles were saved by faith and not by the Law of Moses or by works.

You said that muslims were saved by faith/belief and deeds/works, and Christians by faith/belief alone by interpreting Matthew 5:17-19 as faith/belief and deeds/works on which you applied it to yourself or to your religion but the confusing part of your statement is that you are “NOT A BELIEVER IN THE BIBLE”

I am not a believer in the bible, I don't take all of what the bible says.

So, how can you apply the Lord Jesus teachings to your cause when the very facts that this whole arguments were based on His Death, Burial, and Resurrection on which you denied?[/QUOTE]

 

[JM2C]

So Christianity, a religion which you claim is for mankind can only be understood by who it is revealed to?

You keep on claiming that it is from God, well what you claim has no weight if it is not backed up by proof.

Here is another proof, Jesus peace be upon him used to eat. Do you know that someone who eats is in need? Thus he also needs to go to the bathroom?

You are getting out of line here now. You wanna be funny start a thread about funny things. If you cannot argue or debate intelligently then you have to stop.

 

[Harikrish]

Well since you want to conduct the debate that way than let me quote what Jesus peace be upon him said.

"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the prophets. I came not to destroy but rather to fulfill. For verily I tell you, not until all things be accomplished shall a single dot (jot, iota or tiny letter) in any way be lessened from the Law. And whoever breaks the least of the Commandments and teaches this will be the least in the Kingdom, but whoever keeps the Commandments and teaches this will be the highest in the Kingdom. And not unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharasees will you enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."Matthew 5:17-19

Compare it to what Christians believe and what Muslims believe.

Christians says you are saved by belief, muslims say you are saved by belief and deeds. Which one is closer to what Jesus peace be upon him said in keeping the commandments ?

Muslims are closer to Jesus in their beliefs. Even the Quran mentions Jesus more times than the prophet Mohammad himself. Muslims also believe in Jesus's second coming.

It is quite logical for Muslims to accept Jesus. Islam was created after Christianity and Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism. But Jesus never spoke ill of Arabs even though he was a Jew.

 

[Sabour]

You are really confusing me, or you are the one who is really confused here. The commandments the Lord Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:17-19 was in reference to the Law of Moses. “Whoever keeps the commandments”, I.E. or EXPLICITY [your favorite word], the Law of Moses “and teaches these commands will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven” Now, since no one can keep the whole Law of Moses [READ & UNDERSTAND Romans 3:9-11] perfectly then no one can reach the Kingdom of Heaven. BTW, the Lord Jesus was talking to the Jews here and not to the Gentiles. Gentiles were saved by faith and not by the Law of Moses or by works.

You said that muslims were saved by faith/belief and deeds/works, and Christians by faith/belief alone by interpreting Matthew 5:17-19 as faith/belief and deeds/works on which you applied it to yourself or to your religion but the confusing part of your statement is that you are “NOT A BELIEVER IN THE BIBLE” So, how can you apply the Lord Jesus teachings to your cause when the very facts that this whole arguments were based on His Death, Burial, and Resurrection on which you denied?

[/QUOTE]

You call me the confused one? You stopped at the verse at some point and you took it out of context and added to what I highlighted in red. The words highlighted in red are the words you added just to make the verses say what you want to say. If no one can keep the commandments, why did Jesus peace be upon him teach so? Did he not know what he was teaching?

Original verses say
"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the prophets. I came not to destroy but rather to fulfill. For verily I tell you, not until all things be accomplished shall a single dot (jot, iota or tiny letter) in any way be lessened from the Law. And whoever breaks the least of the Commandments and teaches this will be the least in the Kingdom, but whoever keeps the Commandments and teaches this will be the highest in the Kingdom. And not unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharasees will you enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."

You can't cut and paste you have to take the verse at full.

By faith I didn't mean in the faith that Jesus peace be upon him came and died for your sins, I meant by the belief in God, the angels, the revelations,prophets and messengers, judgement day, and Qadar ( Destiny / divine destination)

 

[Sabour]

You are getting out of line here now. You wanna be funny start a thread about funny things. If you cannot argue or debate intelligently then you have to stop.

Am serious, how can he be god if he used to eat food. Does a god feel hungry or is he in need of food to survive?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Prophets are not normal people.They are chosen by God to share his message. When it comes to talking about who God and acting in the way of God they make no faults.

Prophets are examples for us to follow. They lived up the messages they came to share with humanity.

Yes the prophets are not ordinary people
This must be their actions and their words are different from ordinary people because they carry the idea and goal-.
The acts of Christ and his words confirm that no normal human being-.
But Mohammed has the same qualities-a???
The actions of Muhammad and Muhammad's actions were acts of ordinary people-.
he love sex and they love power love money-
And he loves the sex Guide for marrying 13
And loves power when he was commander of the armies of Muslims.
And he likes money when he ordered the Division of the spoils
The share of each one of the spoils of war