TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
John 19:7
John 10:30-33 He said I and my Father are one. They took up stones to stone him. When asked why they answered - for blasphemy, and because that thou, being a man makest thyself God.
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John 19:7
It is never a good idea to base a doctrine on one verse. The whole of scripture must be considered. If you took a look at a Greek interlinear you would see that the word "God" in verse 33 does not have a definite article ("the"), which is always used when referring to the true God. The same construction is used in 1 Corinthians.John 10:30-33 He said I and my Father are one. They took up stones to stone him. When asked why they answered - for blasphemy, and because that thou, being a man makest thyself God.
Read the Greek for that....there is no “ho Theos”. So really, the Jews were saying, “thou....makest thyself a god.”John 10:30-33 He said I and my Father are one. They took up stones to stone him. When asked why they answered - for blasphemy, and because that thou, being a man makest thyself God.
Read the Greek for that....there is no “ho Theos”. So really, the Jews were saying, “thou....makest thyself a god.”
And that’s the argument Jesus builds on, in quoting from Psalm 82.
Proof of this, is that, at Jesus’ trial at the Sanhedrin, parts of which were recorded in all 4 Gospel accounts, no one ever accused Jesus of calling Himself God, which they surely would have done, if it were true. They only accused Jesus of calling Himself the Son of God.
No, Jesus only ever said that He was God’s Son.
This also proves that John 8:58, is also mostly mistranslated.... Jesus was simply saying that he was in existence when Abraham was around, that he had been living a lot longer than just being “50 years old.” Again, if Jesus was claiming He was God in that account, they would have accused Him of saying that during His tria.
They didn’t!
Really? OK.....A long time ago on original Earth, before pyramid and machine first science.
That brought the EXTRA ufo mass back to Earth for machine...….the male scientists attacked/converted ground water oxygen mass with microbes, stole it from their owned life, converted self....and mass evaporation put the IMAGE OF GOD, self male human thinker into the cloud.
God the Father history, Father human designer of the states of science and machine reactions.
Eventually all life on Earth destroyed, a huge burning, why archaeology found technology deep inside of Earth and human artefacts inside of coal.
Burning/carbonising of the stone with massive water loss put a lot of above ground living conditions inside of the Earth fusion. Insects inside of amber, etc.
Then Nature re emerged onto Earth when the planet cooled down again and the atmosphere cooled also. New nature with the beast dinosaur mutations.
As the sun owned the cycles of Earth attacked by science, it came again and destroyed the life of dinosaurs and Earth was iced.
Life reincarnated/returned due to ICE, just as the story says, newly born baby human DNA emerged in Genesis.
Then Moses, after the fact of science reinvented/attack on life.
Then Jesus, after the fact of science reinvented/attack on life.....and his image put into the clouds also...so was not like his Father's history, for we no longer own the amount of water mass that Earth once owned.
Reasoning, fact, the UFO that comes to Earth in radiation attack history sucks up a huge water volume as it disintegrates the ground mass into sand from stone bodies. As the UFO is a solid metal formed in space from pressure, as Sun radiation, when it enters our atmosphere it gets a hole burnt into it, by our burning light gases.
It then sucks in the Earth owned atmospheric gases and then our water/oxygen and microbes....how an evil devil alien gets formed inside of a nuclear conversion from the Sun. Always was known by scientific males on Earth seeing they got the result of what they conjured.
Really? OK.....
I have to ask: Why do you call yourself “rational experiences”?
Read the Greek for that....there is no “ho Theos”. So really, the Jews were saying, “thou....makest thyself a god.”
And that’s the argument Jesus builds on, in quoting from Psalm 82.
Proof of this, is that, at Jesus’ trial at the Sanhedrin, parts of which were recorded in all 4 Gospel accounts, no one ever accused Jesus of calling Himself God, which they surely would have done, if it were true. They only accused Jesus of calling Himself the Son of God.
No, Jesus only ever said that He was God’s Son.
This also proves that John 8:58, is also mostly mistranslated.... Jesus was simply saying that he was in existence when Abraham was around, that he had been living a lot longer than just being “50 years old.” Again, if Jesus was claiming He was God in that account, they would have accused Him of saying that during His tria.
They didn’t!
It is never a good idea to base a doctrine on one verse. The whole of scripture must be considered. If you took a look at a Greek interlinear you would see that the word "God" in verse 33 does not have a definite article ("the"), which is always used when referring to the true God. The same construction is used in 1 Corinthians.
1Cor 8:5-6,
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
At the time the scriptures were written, it was understood by those to whom they were given (Jews) that the word "god" meant anybody with power and authority. Jesus would certainly qualify, but that does not make him the one true God, the Father, of 1 Corinthians 8:6. In light of verse 6, it would be awfully hard to squeeze it in a way that would leave it open for Jesus to also be God. Even if we give him the non-scriptural title "God the Son" it would still disqualify him as being the one God, the Father. You really don't have to go beyond Strong's definition of "god" to verify it's meaning.
It is also noteworthy to read a few verses past John 10:33.
John 10:34-36,
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Verse 35 says that each Jew was considered a god. Why? Because God gave them the scriptures. That certainly gave them power and authority and thus made them gods. They may not have used that authority to it's fullest benefit, but God did give them that power and thus made them gods. I didn't write the book. I'm just pointing out what it says.
Also, verse 36 sas Jesus claiming to be the son of God. I am baffled how few Christians there are (about 2%), who apparently are unable to make a clear distinction between a father and a son. Unless we abandon the universally agreed upon meaning of simple words, it is quite impossible to make a son be his own father. In any sense of the words, they are two distinctly different persons.
True, a son shares the nature of it's parent, thus giving Jesus a divine nature, but we also, as born again believers, have a diving nature (2 Peter 1:4). Even a frog shares the nature of it's parent. So while both Jesus and all born again sons of God, have a divine nature, none of us are God Almighty. That title is reserved for the Father and none other. It's about time the orthodox church abandons tradition and holds itself to the truth of God's word.
I pray the day will soon come that Christians will wake up and learn who the true God is. He is not some grotesque 3 persons with one essence fabrication. That makes him a thing, an essence, and not a person. The one true God is our Father, about as far from being a "thing" as it gets. Let's get on board and worship the one true God, the Father, through His only begotten son, the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the plan God had in mind from the very beginning.
If Colossians is saying Jesus is God, what do we do with 1 Corinthians 8:6?He was the one and only God manifest in the flesh.
1. YHWH said he created everything. He said he was alone and by himself. Isaiah 44:24
Yet according to the scriptures in Colossians 1:14-18 you can see that the one who shed his blood created all things. How can this be? - Because he was YHWH dwelling in a fleshly body.
2. YHWH said he was the first and the last. Isaiah 44:6 and Isaiah 48:12
Now look here in Revelation 22:12-13 and verse 20, and see who it is that says he is the first and the last. (It is the one you claim is not God.) There can only be one who is the first and the last.
3. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10 we will all stand before the judgement seat of Messiah.
Now look at Revelation 21: 5-7 where the one sitting on the throne says in verse 6 that he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. And in verse 7 that he is God.
Next look at Revelation 22:12-13 and verse 20 to see who it is here that says he is the Alpha and Omega, and the beginning and the end. (Once again it is the one you are claiming is not God.)
If Colossians is saying Jesus is God, what do we do with 1 Corinthians 8:6?
1Cor 8:6,
But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.Even if there was such a thing as God the Son in the scriptures, he would not be the one God.
Also, who is God's God and Father?
John 20:17,
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.God does not have a God or a Father, but Jesus had both.
These two verses (and there are many others) must be made to fit with Colossians or the scriptures contradict themselves. This is what I meant by building a doctrine on one or two verses, especially when there are many clear verses that contradict.
Even within the verses in Colossians that you quoted, there is a problem.What you are failing to see is the distinction is between Spirit and flesh.
Yes there is one God, the Father - who is a Spirit John 4:24
But he didn't have blood to shed for man's sin. So he made himself a body to dwell in and sacrifice for sins. That body was the fleshly body of a man. Could he call the body his Son? Yes - because the Spirit fathered that body. Matthew 1:18
YHWH (the Father) was dwelling in that body(the Son). That was why he could say things like he was before Abraham. John 8:56-59
And - I and my Father are one. John 10:30
And - If you have seen me you have seen the Father. John 14:9
The reason he said things like my Father is greater than I, is because the eternal Spirit is greater than the flesh.
And that flesh did have a God. The scripture says that YHWH is the God of all flesh. That flesh had to be obedient and come under subjection to the Spirit.
Now why don't you explain the things I mentioned in my previous post. Such as Colossians 1:14-18 - where the one who shed the blood was said to have created all things - when it clearly says in Genesis that God was the creator. And Isaiah 44:24 says he was alone and by himself.
And if he was not YHWH manifest in the flesh, explain how both can claim to be the first and the last, and who will be the judge on the throne that says he is God.
Even within the verses in Colossians that you quoted, there is a problem.
Col 1:15,
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Jesus is the image of God. An image of something is expressly not the thing itself. Remember when Jesus asked the Pharisees whose image was on the coin? It was Caesar's image, but the coin was not Caesar himself.
Also how do you explain God, or part of God, being the firstborn? If Jesus was God, who created (or bore) God?
I can tell you that the key to Colossians is in the prepositions, those little words "in" and "by." If you understood those words, the problems would go away. Otherwise you have to explain who is God's God, who is His Father, and who created Him. It would be much easier to deal with the prepositions.
But there is one other you may want to consider. If John 10:30 makes Jesus actually God, then why are we not also God?
John 17:21,
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.And why is Paul and Apollos not actually one and the same person?
1Cor 3:6-8,
Could it be that you misunderstand what it means to be one with another person? I'd give it some consideration at least.
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
If you answer those questions, I'll answer yours. But if you just keep giving me more verses we will get nowhere. Let's handle the ones we already have before going any further.
God bless.
Since the coin was the image of Caesar, are you suggesting that Caesar "took on the coin?" What does that even mean? The fact is there is nowhere in the scriptures that says God took on a fleshy body. There are plenty of Pagan religions that make such a claim, but not the scriptures.You may not understand, but I at least tried to answer your questions. It appears you can't/won't even make an attempt to answer mine.
That flesh was the image of the invisible God. When God took on that fleshly body, it was his image.
We aren't God because there is a big difference in being made in the image of God like us, versus actually being the image of God. He was God manifest in the flesh.
Your turn to answer my questions.
Does our flesh have to be obedient and come under subjection to the Spirit? If not, then Jesus was in no wise tempted as we are tempted and the book of Hebrews is a bunch of hooey.And that flesh did have a God. The scripture says that YHWH is the God of all flesh. That flesh had to be obedient and come under subjection to the Spirit.
Does our flesh have to be obedient and come under subjection to the Spirit? If not, then Jesus was in no wise tempted as we are tempted and the book of Hebrews is a bunch of hooey.
Heb 4:15,
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.The true beauty of Jesus' accomplishment was that he was a man tempted just like the rest of us, and yet never once succumbed to those temptations. He had the same free will. He could have easily taken the devil up on his offer to gain all the kingdoms of the world. He simply chose not to do that, again, by the same free will God gave to all men. If, as you say, his flesh had to obey the spirit, he would not have had free will. What a boring story! The scriptures are infinitely more exciting to those who understand that Jesus really was a man tempted just like the rest of us.
Yes, Jesus and God had two different wills. Interesting how that might fit with them being one essence, whatever an essence is. The scriptures don't talk about an essence, so I'm not sure what it means. I like to use the scriptures as my only source of truth. In any case, if this one essence has two wills, it would seem to be a mentally ill essence (multiple personality disorder).Why not answer my questions instead of just implying things I haven't said. I didn't say he didn't have free will. My questions show major problems with your belief. That is why you have to avoid them.
Of course he had free will. That is why he said - not my will but thine be done. There is the will of the flesh and the will of the Spirit. They are contrary to one another as scripture says. In order to be the perfect sacrifice his flesh had to come under subjection to the will of the Spirit.
Yes, Jesus and God had two different wills. Interesting how that might fit with them being one essence, whatever an essence is. The scriptures don't talk about an essence, so I'm not sure what it means. I like to use the scriptures as my only source of truth. In any case, if this one essence has two wills, it would seem to be a mentally ill essence (multiple personality disorder).
All in all, to me, it is better to accept Jesus as the son of God. There is one person, the Father (the only true God - 1 Cor 8:6), and another person, the son (who is never called God the Son in the scriptures).
I looked back at our conversation and I couldn't find any questions I haven't answered. In fact I didn't find any questions at all. Maybe I missed something. Did I? Let me know, and I'll do my best to answer them.
Also, I didn't mean to imply you saying anything. I was just stating what I see in the scriptures. You are telling me what you see in the scriptures. Isn't that wonderful?
God, through the work of Jesus Christ, is my savior.Hi rrobs,
It amazes me when I read these scriptural threads. I never imagined that I would encounter so many different interpretations of scripture, a large number supplied by people who call themselves Christian.
In Philippians 1:27, Paul says, 'Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel.'
Last week I found myself striving against the sabbath doctrine of a Seventh Day Adventist, and now I wonder if I am not getting myself into another doctrinal difference of interpretation with a Unitarian! All I can say is that I pray the Lord forgives me if the discussion bears no fruit!
Here's my question to you: Who is your Saviour?