Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
God, through the work of Jesus Christ, is my savior.
Interpretation is way over blown. For example, did you need to interpret that simple statement? I trust you didn't. It is very simple assertion. Maybe it is true or maybe it isn't, but it certainly didn't take much straining to understand what I meant. I didn't have to ponder the meaning of your reply. All the words and sentences you wrote were very simple to understand. Most everything we read is just like that. It simply says what it means and means what it says.
The problem comes when we interject ideas into the scriptures that simply are not there. When that is done, it becomes necessary to "bend" simple scriptural concepts to fit those unwarranted ideas that are really not there.
Of course there is:
2 Pet 1:20,
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.This specifically says that no one individual has the right to interpret anything. So where does that leave us? Either there is no way we can understand the scriptures or they simply interpret themselves. Personally, I vote for the latter. The scriptures do indeed interpret themselves, so there is no need for me, you, or anybody else to do so.
Here is a good example of the above:
Matt 27:46,
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why would God wonder where His God went? Makes no sense. On the other hand, if Jesus is not God, then it is easy to understand that he was talking to God. He was quoting Psalm 22 in which David was having a hard time and so he was wondering where God went. It is not unusual for any believer to get discouraged and maybe even have a moment's doubt. I mean, David was the king of God's chosen people and even he got discouraged at times. But if you read the whole Psalm, the question was answered; God went nowhere, He was with David the whole time and in the end caused him to win the victory, which is what God always does.
It's rather amazing to know that at his absolute worse hour Jesus laser focused on the scriptures. It is worth remembering that Jesus asked God 3 times if there was some other way of redeeming us other than being crucified. Of course he ended up saying, "Not my will, but thine be done." God does not have multiple personalities, each with it's own will. No. Jesus had his will and God had His own will. It is clear they were not the same will. Jesus wanted one thing (not to die) and God wanted another thing (Jesus to die). It is sooooo simple. How do Christians miss it????
In any case, if we simply read it as written it makes perfect sense. Jesus was a man, and he talked to our God the same way we all do. It is also clear that he had a completely separate will than did God. One has to do some mighty fancy word twisting, i.e. interpretation, to make Jesus and God one and the same essence, person, or any other word dreamed up at the council of Nicea. When read it as written, it is clear there are two completely separate individuals here, Jesus and God.
I know it is said that it was the "man part" of Jesus that asked God to let the cup pass, that it was the "man part" that momentarily doubted God's presence, that it was the "man part" that spoke to God. Well, my friend, interjecting the words "man part" into the scriptures is nothing less than "one's own interpretation" which we've seen is exactly what 2 Peter 1:21 tells us not to do. Since there is no mention whatsoever of a "man part" of Jesus in the scriptures, it is only one's private interpretation worming it's way where it doesn't belong. It does nothing but screw up an otherwise beautiful narrative and makes a largely incomprehensible jumbo out of it. No wonder few can agree on anything in the scriptures! They don't even understand the natures of the two leading characters! They don't even accept that there are two leading characters! They make the two (three - makes things even worse) into one!
The basic reason then for the divisions is private interpretation. Sadly far too many Christians have more respect for tradition than for the scriptures. I certainly don't blame nor condemn anyone who does so (that is Jesus' job), but I do understand that it is not God's will to be that way. Nobody can go beyond what they are taught, not even those who do the teaching. We have had 2,000 of error regarding the nature of God and Jesus, and 2,000 years of error taught as truth is not easy to overcome. However, I believe that once someone hears the truth, they no longer have an excuse for believing tradition over that truth.
When Paul preached at Corinth they wanted to kill him because he taught things that went against their 4,000 year old doctrine. They refused to accept the changes that Jesus brought. Furthermore, they wanted to kill him even before he was done preaching. In other words, they spent no time at all checking to see if Paul may have been on to something.
Escaping from Corinth, Paul went to Berea and preached the same message to them. What was their reaction?
Acts 17:11,
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.They searched the scriptures daily to verify if what Paul told them was true of not. They spent some time doing so, daily means at least 2 days, but I'd suspect probably more. I am always amazed that when I write something that I know people have never heard before, they come back immediately with, "you of full of ...." Well, that just tells me they are more like the Corinthians than the Bereans. Not much I can do about that.
There was a time when I believed Jesus was God. I went to Catholic school for 12 years and had 1 hour of religion classes 5 days a week. They told me Jesus was God and I believed it. It raised a lot of questions in my mind when I read things like God knew things Jesus didn't know, that Jesus died and God couldn't die, and much much more, but I just accepted what I was taught. One day a friend came and told me the same things I'm telling you. Did I immediately forget all I had learned in my religion classes and believe that Jesus really was the son of God and not God Himself? No, I didn't. But neither did I act like the Corinthians and demand the head of my friend on a platter. Instead I went all Berean and searched, not my catechism or prayer book, but the scriptures themselves. It took time, study, and effort, but I was finally forced to realize that the scriptures themselves, apart from any interpretation, make a clear, unmistakable distinction between God and His son, Jesus Christ. And not once seeing the word "essence" in the scriptures themselves, I was able to see the whole "3 persons in one essence" concept was nothing less than the grandest coup the devil has foisted (to introduce or insert surreptitiously or without warrant. Mirian-Webster) upon the Christian church.
Go Berean my friend and you won't regret it!
I can assure you that I have been 'Berean' for many years, but the fruit of my studies is not unitarianism!
I'm very happy to discuss this issue using the scriptures alone.
I hope you don't mind, therefore, that I ask a few more questions to elicit the scriptural basis of your beliefs.
If you believe that God is your Saviour, how do you understand the role of Jesus in your salvation? In what sense is Jesus' 'divine nature' not 'all the fulness of the Godhead bodily'?