Jesus is not God

[Ellen Brown]

Jesus also said the Pharisees would see Him coming to Earth in power, with the angels of Heaven, from God's right-hand position. They then killed Him for His obvious allusion to Armageddon and the Book of Daniel.

Jesus also said Torah demands two witnesses confirm a fact but that He didn't need anybody to confirm anything He had to say!

These days I believe in and worship God, Allah SWT, G_D, or the Creator because the evidence to me is too strong. I am open to the existence of Jesus. Sadly, those who are most vehement in their insistence about him, do most to show he didn't.

 

[sooda]

Well, you can't just ignore every time God did indeed become visible to various people throughout the Bible. Manifestations of God have been visible to people since the beginning. Abraham walked, talked and ate with God. (Genesis 18) The people and Moses saw God manifest also. (Exodus 24:9-11) A manifestation of God is a revelation of the invisible God. That is a teaching or a lesson about God's nature. In what form He appears and what He says and does teaches us about God's nature.

Jesus was the revelation or manifestation of God in human flesh. That is God written in human flesh as it says in John chapter 1 "The Word was made flesh". So, the otherwise unseeable God was manifest in the flesh.

As for God destroying people if they look at Him. That's true, but that is the unveiled glory of God. Not a manifestation. There is a difference. The scripture claims that Jesus will "return in the glory of His Father" (Matthew 16:27) and that the wicked will be "consumed by the brightness of His coming". (2 Thessalonians 2:8) We know that 2 Thessalonians 2:8 speaks of Jesus because it is Jesus who has the sword coming out of His mouth. (Revelation 19:15) And it is Jesus who treads the wine-press of the wrath of God.

So, Jesus Himself is predicted to come in the glory of God that is able to destroy any flesh and blood person who looks at it.

The sword in the mouth of Jesus is the word (truth). The reference to the wine press is that the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD during the grape harvest.

 

[shunyadragon]

Bahai is irrelevant here. Islam is under discussion.
Prove your claim with Sura please.

Baha'i is not irrelevant unless it is your thread to make it irrelevant. Whether Jesus Christ is God is the topic, I do not know whether the author of the thread is presently a Muslim or not. Here faith designation is blank. I know at one time in the past she believed she was a Muslim. .

There is no proof either way. I cited many verses where Jesus in his own words denied he was God, and you have failed to respond.

No misuse of citations at all. Jesus was God. As he said so himself besides the scriptures that attest of that.
Naysayers are just that.

There is, because you are being selective on your citations where at present you have failed to respond to my citations.

 

[SugarOcean]

Baha'i is not irrelevant unless it is your thread to make it irrelevant.

No, Bahai is irrelevant because they don't accept Jesus was savior nor God. It isn't yours to decide relevancy.

Whether Jesus Christ is God is the topic,

That's right. And Jesus in the new and the old testament as well attest Jesus was God. As if the name he was to be called, "Emmanuel" meaning "God with us", isn't proof in itself.

There is no proof either way.

Emmanuel is proof enough.

I cited many verses where Jesus in his own words denied he was God, and you have failed to respond.

I did respond. Your alleged citations do not say what you claim they say. If they did then you would be arguing Jesus was a liar in those scriptures wherein he said he was God. If Jesus was a liar then he would be unfit to be a savior.

There is, because you are being selective on your citations where at present you have failed to respond to my citations.

That too is incorrect. You just didn't like the response. And chose to ignore the scriptures wherein there is biblical proof Jesus was God. You know, besides the name he was given at birth. Emmanuel, meaning, God with us.

 

[sooda]

Baha'i is not irrelevant unless it is your thread to make it irrelevant. Whether Jesus Christ is God is the topic, I do not know whether the author of the thread is presently a Muslim or not. Here faith designation is blank. I know at one time in the past she believed she was a Muslim. .

There is no proof either way. I cited many verses where Jesus in his own words denied he was God, and you have failed to respond.



There is, because you are being selective on your citations where at present you have failed to respond to my citations.

I don't think we can possibly know for certain whether Jesus was God or not. There are too many contradictions... So even if one has been raised the Christian tradition, they cannot be sure.. And, just maybe God has this problem worked out.

 

[SugarOcean]

For those reading, be aware that actual Baha'is believe Jesus is/was who he said he is/was. Therefore, no Bahai takes issue with the scriptures wherein Jesus said he and the Father (God) are one.

“Then the angel said to them, ‘… For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.'”

The Lord is a term for God.


Jesus’ claim about Himself
John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!
Source Jesus is God

 

[sooda]

For those reading, be aware that actual Baha'is believe Jesus is/was who he said he is/was. Therefore, no Bahai takes issue with the scriptures wherein Jesus said he and the Father (God) are one.

“Then the angel said to them, ‘… For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.'”

The Lord is a term for God.


Jesus’ claim about Himself
John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!
Source Jesus is God

Luke never knew Jesus and totally screws up the geography of Palestine.

 

[SugarOcean]

Luke never knew Jesus and totally screws up the geography of Palestine.

Yeah, you've made that false claim before.

 

[SugarOcean]

I don't think we can possibly know for certain whether Jesus was God or not. There are too many contradictions... So even if one has been raised the Christian tradition, they cannot be sure.. And, just maybe God has this problem worked out.

Not true. People that read and respect what the bible says know for certain because there is no contradiction. Skeptics aren't evidence of contradiction.

20 Verses to Remind Us, God Is with Us, Knows Our Way, and Has a Plan:

1. "...She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us')." Isaiah 7:14
2. "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us"). Matthew 1:23
3. “The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.” Zephaniah 3:17
4. "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." Job 23:10
5. “Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.” Joshua 1:9
6. “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.” Psalm 23:4
7. “Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.” Isaiah 41:10
8. “But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him steadfast love and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.” Gen. 39:21
9. “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.” Genesis 50:20
10. “For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” Jeremiah 29:11
11. “Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you.” Deuteronomy 31:6
12. “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior…” Isaiah 43:1-3
13. “For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39
14. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14
15. “And the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, “The Lord is with you, O mighty man of valor.” Judges 6:12
16. “Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.” Isaiah 46:4
17. He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” Psalm 91:1-2
18. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.” John 14:16-17
19. “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Matthew 18:20
20. “…And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:20

20 Hope-Filled Verses to Remind Us: Our Immanuel is “With Us”

 

[sooda]

Yeah, you've made that false claim before.

Most scholars think Luke was a Greek Jew who lived in Antioch, Syria. No scholars believe he lived in Israel or ever met Jesus.

 

[sooda]

Not true. People that read and respect what the bible says know for certain because there is no contradiction. Skeptics aren't evidence of contradiction.

20 Verses to Remind Us, God Is with Us, Knows Our Way, and Has a Plan:

1. "...She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us')." Isaiah 7:14
2. "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us"). Matthew 1:23
3. “The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.” Zephaniah 3:17
4. "But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold." Job 23:10
5. “Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.” Joshua 1:9
6. “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.” Psalm 23:4
7. “Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.” Isaiah 41:10
8. “But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him steadfast love and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.” Gen. 39:21
9. “You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.” Genesis 50:20
10. “For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” Jeremiah 29:11
11. “Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you.” Deuteronomy 31:6
12. “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior…” Isaiah 43:1-3
13. “For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39
14. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14
15. “And the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, “The Lord is with you, O mighty man of valor.” Judges 6:12
16. “Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.” Isaiah 46:4
17. He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.” Psalm 91:1-2
18. “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.” John 14:16-17
19. “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Matthew 18:20
20. “…And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:20

20 Hope-Filled Verses to Remind Us: Our Immanuel is “With Us”

You have produced a wall of text that doesn't make your case that Jesus said he was God.. Deuteronomy? Are you kidding me?

 

[SugarOcean]

You have produced a wall of text that doesn't make your case that Jesus said he was God.. Deuteronomy? Are you kidding me?

That's not true.
That you don't know Jesus figured prominently in the OT indicates you don't bother to study much. Therefore, no, I'm not kidding you.
Jesus was prophesied in the OT. Now you know.

 

[SugarOcean]

Most scholars think Luke was a Greek Jew who lived in Antioch, Syria. No scholars believe he lived in Israel or ever met Jesus.

Meaningless because you have no proof of this in your remarks. Again.

Edited to add: OK, this getting to be rather ridiculous let me help you. Now you can cease and desist with the repetitive unsubstantiated statement that "Luke" never traveled to "Palestine".
Palestine in the time of Jesus, 4 B.C. - 30 A.D. : (including the period of Herod, 40 - 4 B.C.)

As for Luke, most well read Christians know the Gospels authors were anonymous.
scripture

 

[shunyadragon]

No, Bahai is irrelevant because they don't accept Jesus was savior nor God. It isn't yours to decide relevancy.

It is not your decision either. It is the author of the thread who decides what is relevant. From your perspective everybody that does not believe as you do is irrelevant, including Jews, Baha'is, and Muslims and other Christians that do not believe Jesus is God.

That's right. And Jesus in the new and the old testament as well attest Jesus was God. As if the name he was to be called, "Emmanuel" meaning "God with us", isn't proof in itself.

Emmanuel is proof enough.
I did respond. Your alleged citations do not say what you claim they say. If they did then you would be arguing Jesus was a liar in those scriptures wherein he said he was God. If Jesus was a liar then he would be unfit to be a savior.



That too is incorrect. You just didn't like the response. And chose to ignore the scriptures wherein there is biblical proof Jesus was God. You know, besides the name he was given at birth. Emmanuel, meaning, God with us.

Still you have not responded to the words of Jesus Christ himself that he is not God.

 

[SugarOcean]

It is not your decision either. It is the author of the thread who decides what is relevant. From your perspective everybody that does not believe as you do is irrelevant, including Jews, Baha'is, and Muslims and other Christians that do not believe Jesus is God.

No, you're not going to turn this around with falsehoods. But that you avoid what I said about Bahai , actual Bahai, believe what Jesus said of himself is noted. And if you can't absorb the walls of scripture that have been pasted to show Jesus not only said he was God but OT and NT scriptures affirm this, that's not anyone's fault.

Still you have not responded to the words of Jesus Christ himself that he is not God.

That's false. Again.
There are no such scriptures. The scriptures you're referring to do not exist.
The scriptures you posted was not Jesus saying he was not God. Jesus was referring to God in the full context of teaching as a flesh and blood man, who was also wholly holy God.
I won't respond again to your repetitive false accusations.
Bahai believe what Jesus said of himself. As the link to the resource that you ignored that linked to a Bahai site states this.


John 14:9 Jesus replied, "Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
The Way, the Truth, and the Life
John 14…8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus replied,“Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works.…



16 Top Bible Verses-God With Us - Everyday Servant
Joshua 1:9
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.”
Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
Deuteronomy 31:6
Be strong and courageous. Do not fear or be in dread of them, for it is the Lord your God who goes with you. He will not leave you or forsake you.”
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Hebrews 13:5
Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
Romans 8:38-39
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
Matthew 6:25-34
“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. …
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Psalm 23:4
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
Psalm 139:7-10
Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.
Zephaniah 3:17
The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.
Ephesians 3:17
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Psalm 46:4
There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy habitation of the Most High.
Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Your other posts.

What about them?

 

[sooda]

That's not true.
That you don't know Jesus figured prominently in the OT indicates you don't bother to study much. Therefore, no, I'm not kidding you.
Jesus was prophesied in the OT. Now you know.

An anointed warrior king like David was predicted in the OT.

 

[SugarOcean]

An anointed warrior king like David was predicted in the OT.

Support your statement please.

 

[oldbadger]

That is what they are...stories.

Says you.

And each author told a different story

So how could three of the authors tell 'totally' different stories if they are called the synoptic gospels?

There is a true story there of what the Baptist and then Jesus did....... you just haven't figured that out yet.

It's a bit like the novel about Huck Finn....... it's got a basis in reality. You like Huck Finn!

 

[sooda]

Says you.

@sugar ocean

So how could three of the authors tell 'totally' different stories if they are called the synoptic gospels?

There is a true story there of what the Baptist and then Jesus did....... you just haven't figured that out yet.

It's a bit like the novel about Huck Finn....... it's got a basis in reality. You like Huck Finn!

History has a bad habit of disproving the "factual" account of Genesis. But both believers and non-believers totally miss the point.

Genesis was never written as a history text, it was written as the "creation myth" of the Hebrews. It was purely allegorical and the time setting was based on oral histories.

Fact is that much of the allegorical stuff was, in fact, based on Sumerian and other contemporary belief systems.

Even the Jews understood it to be allegorical, it was the later Christians that made it into an infallible historical/scientific document when it was NEVER intended for that pupose.