Jesus is not God

[shmogie]

I don't intend to debate on this. What I state is my belief, and others are welcome to theirs, and I will defend their right to their beliefs.

In the OT, when Moses first encounters God, he is told that he can not look upon God and live. Later on, God allows Moses to see him and he comes out all bleached.

Yes, I know that in the NT Jesus says that "I and the Father are one", but I think that means, in context, that the Father and he agree. If Jesus were God, then no one could have looked at him, and people DID look at him, even after the resurrection.

I think that the "Jesus as God" idea came out of the folly of what became the early Catholic Church.

I'm not going to dig all the references out. We all claim to be out of diapers, so you can do it yourself.

Interesting, you post an opinion then say you don't intend to debate it.

Why did you post it then ?

Your position is neither Biblically or historically correct.

 

[shmogie]

An important point in the belief in Roman traditional Christianity, but I do not believe Jesus Christ was God made flesh.

Roman traditional Christianity has nothing to do with it.

The Apostles viewed The Christ as God and worshipped Him as such.

 

[shmogie]

You assume much, and that wrongly. You haven't been rejected by every religious group you have approached have you. I stand by the belief in the Creator because he put that in my heart. Not going to pour out my heart to you. Go your way in peace.

Biblical facts are not assumptions, the assumption is on the part of those who reject these facts

 

[calm]

Describing the Islamic, and the Baha'i belief as well, as Jesus Chriat was a 'mere' prophet is an editorial insult and inaccurate. Islam and the Baha'i Faith describe Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God, and bearer of the Word of God.

Given the misuse of the OT citations as in Isaiah, your citations mainly describe Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God, and the bearer of God's Word especially when ballance with the words of Jesus Christ denying he was God.

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation

. . . and in the OT:

Numbers 23:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Jesus(God) humbled himself. During his time on earth he renounced all his divinity, he became like man.
That's why he ate and drank like people, felt pains like people, and said things like "the father is greater than me". Jesus,God, became literally human.

Philippians 2:5-8
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Jesus,
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

-19 “God is not a man, that He should lie.

Yes, a human being can not be God, but Jesus is not a half god/man but he is completely God and completely man. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

 

[shmogie]

Jesus(God) humbled himself. During his time on earth he renounced all his divinity, he became like man.
That's why he ate and drank like people, felt pains like people, and said things like "the father is greater than me". Jesus,God, became literally human.

Philippians 2:5-8
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Jesus,
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

-19 “God is not a man, that He should lie.

Yes, a human being can not be God, but Jesus is not a half god/man but he is completely God and completely man. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

Yes. Your correspondent belongs to a faith that attempts to meld a variety of faiths together, to become essentially one faith.

• This incongruous task is said to have been accomplished by their very own prophet, who started out as a Muslim . According to one member of this faith, their prophet was Jesus Christ.
• Thus, Jesus cannot be God, an Islamic idea that floated out 600 years after the establishment of Christianity. If He were God (He is), then everything their prophets have said, have to be viewed by the authority of Christ as God, and most of it will be found wanting.

The 19th century produced many false prophets,theirs is just another.

You cannot take cyanide, salt, and sugar mix them together, and produce a proper health drink.

• There is only one truth, Jesus Christ. There is only one way, He meant it, as God, when He said, "I AM the resurrection and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by ME.¨

 

[sooda]

Yes. Your correspondent belongs to a faith that attempts to meld a variety of faiths together, to become essentially one faith.

• This incongruous task is said to have been accomplished by their very own prophet, who started out as a Muslim . According to one member of this faith, their prophet was Jesus Christ.
• Thus, Jesus cannot be God, an Islamic idea that floated out 600 years after the establishment of Christianity. If He were God (He is), then everything their prophets have said, have to be viewed by the authority of Christ as God, and most of it will be found wanting.

The 19th century produced many false prophets,theirs is just another.

You cannot take cyanide, salt, and sugar mix them together, and produce a proper health drink.

• There is only one truth, Jesus Christ. There is only one way, He meant it, as God, when He said, "I AM the resurrection and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by ME.¨

Muslims don't believe in blood sacrifice or inherited sin.. so you can see the problem.

 

[shmogie]

Muslims don't believe in blood sacrifice or inherited sin.. so you can see the problem.

Yes, though Jesus certainly believed in blood sacrifice. I don know about allah, but I know that I cannot escape my own choices in relation to God and his perfect standard. I cannot, of myself, please God.

Nevertheless, through Christ, who shed his blood in my place, the required punishment for my sin, and who lived a perfect life, as my substitute, I can stand before God as positionally perfect.

I assume by inherited sin you mean so called original sin. I prefer the term morally depraved, we are all born morally depraved,

That is, we come into a world corrupted by sin, and we come into the world far from our original parents in mind and body.

They were perfect, in a perfect world. Their choice was not tainted by environmental sin, they had never seen it, they had no knowledge of what it was. Their choice was cold and calculated.

We, on the other hand pop out into a sinful world, surrounded by sinful people, and we have no physical or mental defense to keep us from that very first sinful act, it cannot be avoided.

People get hung up on the OT verse that says a persons sin would be visited succeeding generations.

Is it God doing this ? No.

We know violent people come from violent homes, that is visitation of sin on future generations. It can be the same case for sexual child abuse, and other things. Some sins are learned from past generations, back and back.

 

[sooda]

Yes, though Jesus certainly believed in blood sacrifice. I don know about allah, but I know that I cannot escape my own choices in relation to God and his perfect standard. I cannot, of myself, please God.

Nevertheless, through Christ, who shed his blood in my place, the required punishment for my sin, and who lived a perfect life, as my substitute, I can stand before God as positionally perfect.

I assume by inherited sin you mean so called original sin. I prefer the term morally depraved, we are all born morally depraved,

That is, we come into a world corrupted by sin, and we come into the world far from our original parents in mind and body.

They were perfect, in a perfect world. Their choice was not tainted by environmental sin, they had never seen it, they had no knowledge of what it was. Their choice was cold and calculated.

We, on the other hand pop out into a sinful world, surrounded by sinful people, and we have no physical or mental defense to keep us from that very first sinful act, it cannot be avoided.

People get hung up on the OT verse that says a persons sin would be visited succeeding generations.

Is it God doing this ? No.

We know violent people come from violent homes, that is visitation of sin on future generations. It can be the same case for sexual child abuse, and other things. Some sins are learned from past generations, back and back.

LOLOL.. I don't believe we are born morally depraved.

Inherited sin is contradicted a half dozen times in the Bible.

24 Bible Verses about
Sins Of The Fathers
Most Relevant Verses

24 Bible verses about Sins Of The Fathers


Ezekiel says clearly God does not punish the sons for their fathers’ sins, but that “the soul who sins shall die [for its own sins].” However, in Exodus 20:5 we are informed that God visits “the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations.”

 

[Ellen Brown]

Interesting, you post an opinion then say you don't intend to debate it.

Why did you post it then ?

Your position is neither Biblically or historically correct.

In your opinion.

 

[shmogie]

In your opinion.

Perhaps, but I don´t think so. John 1: 1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Christ is throughout the NT referred to as The Word. So, unless you believe that the Bible has been mistranslated as my JW friends often do, and that many hundreds or more translators made the same mistake over and over, Jesus is God.

BTW, there are a lot of verses that confirm this.

 

[shmogie]

LOLOL.. I don't believe we are born morally depraved.

Inherited sin is contradicted a half dozen times in the Bible.

24 Bible Verses about
Sins Of The Fathers
Most Relevant Verses

24 Bible verses about Sins Of The Fathers


Ezekiel says clearly God does not punish the sons for their fathers’ sins, but that “the soul who sins shall die [for its own sins].” However, in Exodus 20:5 we are informed that God visits “the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations.”

Both are true. I explained why, sinful behavior, like child abuse, can be generational in a family, studies confirm this over and over again.

So, you weren´t born morally depraved. Of course that means you never sinned.

There are only two options, either you were born perfect, or you were born with the propensity to sin. If the latter, you were born morally depraved.

Which is it ? Do you know anyone who is sinless ?

 

[sooda]

Both are true. I explained why, sinful behavior, like child abuse, can be generational in a family, studies confirm this over and over again.

So, you weren´t born morally depraved. Of course that means you never sinned.

There are only two options, either you were born perfect, or you were born with the propensity to sin. If the latter, you were born morally depraved.

Which is it ? Do you know anyone who is sinless ?

I simply don't believe that everyone is born morally depraved.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Perhaps, but I don´t think so. John 1: 1- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Christ is throughout the NT referred to as The Word. So, unless you believe that the Bible has been mistranslated as my JW friends often do, and that many hundreds or more translators made the same mistake over and over, Jesus is God.

BTW, there are a lot of verses that confirm this.

There is an abundance of twisted opinion about nearly everything. I insist on my freedom to have my own. You mentioned JW, I stopped listening. At least I know something about Catholic, Mormon, both Shia and Sunni Muslim. In my own experience JW do not reveal their doctrines honestly.

 

[Ellen Brown]

LOLOL.. I don't believe we are born morally depraved.

Inherited sin is contradicted a half dozen times in the Bible.

24 Bible Verses about
Sins Of The Fathers
Most Relevant Verses

24 Bible verses about Sins Of The Fathers


Ezekiel says clearly God does not punish the sons for their fathers’ sins, but that “the soul who sins shall die [for its own sins].” However, in Exodus 20:5 we are informed that God visits “the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations.”

I think the idea of Original Sin is a depraved idea given to us by satan as a means to impede knowledge of God. And many Pastors have used it to breed unrighteous dependence by believers on them as the only interpreter.

 

[sooda]

I think the idea of Original Sin is a depraved idea given to us by satan as a means to impede knowledge of God. And many Pastors have used it to breed unrighteous dependence by believers on them as the only interpreter.

Maybe.. They have been fiddling with scripture since the Jews were borrowing Ugaritic poetry. It sure is a hot mess ….

 

[Jim]

@Ellen Brown I have some interest in this topic, but I’m not sure that you would have any interest in what I think about it. Have there been any benefits for you, from people’s comments in this thread?

 

[shmogie]

There is an abundance of twisted opinion about nearly everything. I insist on my freedom to have my own. You mentioned JW, I stopped listening. At least I know something about Catholic, Mormon, both Shia and Sunni Muslim. In my own experience JW do not reveal their doctrines honestly.

You have the freedom to to believe whatever you choose. But will that freedom save you ?

 

[shmogie]

I simply don't believe that everyone is born morally depraved.

You are free to believe whatever you choose.

 

[Jim]

I think the ensemble of ideas in the Bible do point to Jesus as being somehow God the Son. One in purpose with the Father. One in divine y babynature with the father. At the same time a different person who prays to the Father.

I realize it is not a simple thing and grabbing a verse here and proof texting with a verse here and there doesn't do justice to the issue.

A few reasons I believe Jesus is in some sense God include:

1) Jesus as being in a sense from birth intrinsically 'the holy child' where only God is holy

2) The apostles seeing Jesus foreshadowed in the Ark of the covenant which shows the pressense of God.

3) Many things that pertain to God in the Old are ascribed to Jesus in the New. To God every knee will bow in Isiah and To Jesus every knee with bow in Philippians Same with title of God and even some prayers to God and many other things.


And those are a few. I do realize it's a difficult issue.

It looks to me like Jesus says things and does things that according to the scriptures only God can say truthfully, or do. I think that whenever the scriptures say that God says or does something, they’re actually referring to one or more of the prophets including Jesus, or to some powers and influences in us and around us, that help bring out the best in us and in all of society.

I think that being the Son of God is another way of saying that He is a King of Israel. I think that He is unique among the others in some way that is analogous to being a man’s only begotten son.

 

[sooda]

It looks to me like Jesus says things and does things that according to the scriptures only God can say truthfully, or do. I think that whenever the scriptures say that God says or does something, they’re actually referring to one or more of the prophets including Jesus, or to some powers and influences in us and around us, that help bring out the best in us and in all of society.

I think that being the Son of God is another way of saying that He is a King of Israel. I think that He is unique among the others in some way that is analogous to being a man’s only begotten son.

Jesus wasn't a king of Israel. The kingdom was divided (or may have never existed as a united kingdom) and the Judeans despised Israel.