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Jesus is under subjection to God.

JayJayDee

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
disciple said:
So what was your point in referencing them as a valid source of how Jesus is to be viewed? Why would we trust their ''opinion'' on Jesus? They're probably wrong..
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Why did you twist what I said? Where was I asking anyone to see the Pharisees as a "valid source of how Jesus is to be viewed"? Or to trust the "opinion" of Jesus' opposers?

This is what I said....

"It was not Jesus who claimed to be God. The Jews accused him of that when all he ever said regarding his place in God's arrangement, was that he was "God's son". "

Can you not read? The Jews were in error for declaring that Jesus claimed to be God. He never made such a claim.

I know it well enough to know how the Deific titles are used. That's the main issue/argument. I don't view the titles as completely vague, really to the point of being arbitrary. I mean, even capitalizing the titles in later Bibles is not preferable imo, but to take it even further and say that 'God', etc, are not even meaningful as descriptions of Deity is just ridiculous.
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My brother Kolibri has answered you well. I believe you need to study a little more....maybe a lot more.
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
JayJayDee said:
outhouse....this is a forum for scriptural debate.....do you have something to debate?
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Yes, your lack of understanding on the scripture in a historical context.

Not only that, you made a statement that was not scripture but a historical context, so your excused.



JayJayDee said:
Some scripture that in your opinion backs up what you just said?
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And some doesn't. It depends on which book as they all had different Christology.

JayJayDee said:
all he ever said regarding his place in God's arrangement, was that he was "God's son".
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I claim you don't have an understanding of early Christology, from your statement above.


Gospel of Mark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Son of God"
but it is not clear just what the title meant to Mark and his 1st century audience

In Hellenistic culture the same phrase meant a "divine man", a supernatural being.

There is little evidence that "son of God" was a title for the messiah in 1st century Judaism, and the attributes which Mark describes in Jesus are much more those of the Hellenistic miracle-working "divine man" than of the Jewish Davidic messiah

Mark does not explicitly state what he means by "Son of God",


In Hellenistic cultures son of god was a title before jesus was born the Emperor was given.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
nothead said:
Jesus is as close to God as you can get, not being God Almighty. He is ELOHIM, but not YHWH Elohim.
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I suppose it's asking too much to hope that those who can't carry a theological tune stay out of the theological choir.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
nothead said:
Directly abrogates the Great Command: YHWH Elohim, YHWH one. Cannot be unless you take away Moses' Torah altogether.
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I wish this underdeveloped point were worth debating. Perhaps if it weren't so full of holes...
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Carlita said:
Wait, what! I thought since this is going on, I'd reply.

Do you mean that there is a different meaning than "greater" than what is in John 14:28? Is it He's greater and the same level at the same time (which would make sense since Jesus is the representative of God and Jesus speaks for God).

This is more of a English language question rather than theology about Jesus' divinity.

How can Jesus be greater and not greater at the same time?

(anyone can reply)
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Jesus is both fully human and fully Divine.
 
Kolibri

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
nothead said:
Prove it. No proof exists since Jesus is not fully divine at all.
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"because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." - Colossians 2:9

The Greek word the·oʹtes, or "divine quality", does not though make Jesus coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than the fact that all humans share “humanity” or “human nature” makes them coequal or all the same age.

Colossians 1:19 shows that this was not Jesus' decision for this "fullness to dwell in him" but "God was well pleased to have" it so. And really there is no better way for us to learn about Jehovah than by carefully learning all that we can about Jesus because he had been with his heavenly Father since the very beginning of creation. Jesus knows better than anyone else the personality and will of God.

"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also." - John 14:9
 
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sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
nothead said:
Biological Son is not kosher, but rather a pagan notion. Akin even to Roman gods. Or as the Chinese say, "One Big Happeh Famery in Heaben."
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Who said the "notion" was biological? But you'e not far off. The fact that Xy incorporates pagan elements only goes to show that Xy is pan-religious and pan-cultural. It's more than just some dusty, redheaded stepchild of Judaism, after all.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
nothead said:
Must be an annoying progressive notion, then. Wow, I'm convinced. Annoyingly progressive since 325 A.D. that is. What makes you think the later ECF'S knew more than the first two gen saints?
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Your attempt at deflection is desperate. If you're so on about "proof," the I wholeheartedly invite you to prove that Jesus is not God. Note: The bible isn't proof. I call habeas corpus. Trot him out here in front of us and apply whatever empirical, scientific method you can muster to disprove his Divinity. I dare ya.
 
N

nothead

Active Member
sojourner said:
Your attempt at deflection is desperate. If you're so on about "proof," the I wholeheartedly invite you to prove that Jesus is not God. Note: The bible isn't proof. I call habeas corpus. Trot him out here in front of us and apply whatever empirical, scientific method you can muster to disprove his Divinity. I dare ya.
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Why would he be God, whom never said he was? Constantine in motion? A Secret Waldo in the Wilderness? Buddha Son of Buddha who is secretive? What?
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
sojourner said:
It's not about proof.
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Agreed


There would be no arguments if people just stated that in the first place. More people need to follow your lead.


Be certain, be positive, be faithful, that's all great. But accept it is not something that has to be proven as the theology proves itself.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
nothead said:
Why would he be God, whom never said he was? Constantine in motion? A Secret Waldo in the Wilderness? Buddha Son of Buddha who is secretive? What?
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More deflection. Questions aren't proof. We're after hard, scientific evidence, after all, as per the challenge you issued. So live up to the conditions of your challenge.

Or is it not really about proof, as I stated in response?
 
N

nothead

Active Member
sojourner said:
More deflection. Questions aren't proof. We're after hard, scientific evidence, after all, as per the challenge you issued. So live up to the conditions of your challenge.

Or is it not really about proof, as I stated in response?
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You are right about proofs. I have evidences galore. Want one? Jesus never said he was God? Evidence enough? Actually was compelling to me, when I started my investigation thereof.
 
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