Being a man born he was an "elohim" to whom the word of God came. Such as prophets and kings were also called "elohim." Not YHWH Elohim, as you know, neither an angel as you might not know. The Son of Elohim had the same divine bent, being indwelt of the Holy Spirit and this increasingly.
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Jesus is under subjection to God.
- Thread starter Sculelos
- Start date
Not true monotheism. True monotheism is one God in identity. False monotheism says two or three identities are the same God.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
No, a Rabbi would not be likened to the father by that title unless specified that it was not referring to the father. Otherwise we would have multiple examples of vague title usage for the father in the Bible.
for example, in Genesis, is it Zeus who is the creator? Thor?
No, of course not. That's because unless otherwise specified, 'Elohim' always means the father.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Monotheism is the worship of one God. Xians traditionally believe Jesus to be God.
That's one Deity.
Buuut. "One God" for the Jew meant one identity of God, the name. And one existence as God, the being of Him, "elohim." Elohim of elohim is ordinally at the top, with NO OTHER ONE allowed by Shema.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
eh, no issue with the elders over doctrine here. I've done my own studying to prove to myself what is taught is from scripture and what is not.
I am only trying to see what it was Jesus himself said in plain speech.
"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." - John 3:13
"for I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me." - John 6:38
"What, therefore, if you should see the Son of man ascending to where he was before?" - John 6:62
"He went on to say to them: 'You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.'" - John 8:23
"Jesus said to them: 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.'" - John 8:42
"Jesus said to them: 'Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been." - John 8:58
How does one reason that Jesus was saying "I was only a figment in my Father's imagination till I was conceived in my mothers womb. But I "existed" because I was planned for."?
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90% of the time you are right. "Otherwise specified" is not hardly SPECIFIED except that we know Moses ain't God, Exodus 7. Solomon ain't God, Psalm 45.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
And "ye are elohim" Psalm 82. "Sons of the most high," to whom the Word of God came.
No his glor
"The glory I shared with you," indicates the determination of glory, not his consciousness of it.
No, his glory was determined as reality, before he had the consciousness to perceive it. Since he weren't born yet. And since he didn't have anything to do with the initial determination of YHWH.
"The glory I shared with you," indicates the determination of glory, not his consciousness of it.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
You seem to be contradicting yourself. Because 'Elohim' is used for 'God' in the singular, yet you admitted that it was used for 'God and the angels', did you not? Are people praying to angels in the Bible? The capitalizations are meaningless btw, that was done long after all the texts were written. You seem to now be presenting the false idea that there were distinctions in spelling of the deific titles.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
There is only one problem with that reasoning....I can find "God the Father" expressly stated in scripture but nowhere can I find "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" ever written.
I can find Jesus promoting the worship of his Father but not of himself or the Holy Spirit. (Luke 4:8) I can find Jesus praying to the Father, but never to the Holy Spirit.
There is no "godhead" in the Bible. There is one God, the Father.
1 Cor 8:5, ....For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God, the Father from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.
There is no mention of the Holy Spirit here and Jesus and his Father are said to be two separate entities....only one is God..."the Father".
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Anyways, we may as well address the 'backward figuring' of obtaining 'Elohim', only, from 'God', and not JHVH. We can't do this because the father is referred to as God in the NT. We know this to be JHVH. So why the arbitrary assumption that when 'God' is used for Jesus, it doesn't mean JHVH?
God's identity is singular and thus alone, unique and by itself. Yeshua cannot be added to the mix of Godhead, SINCE Shema says God's identity is alone, first, singular and unique. God SAID his name is a sign for all generations, forever in Ex. 3.
The word ELOHIM on the other hand can refer to kings, prophets, saints, angels, cherrubim and serraphim. The resurrected Jesus is "elohim" but not YHWH Elohim. NOT God Almighty. SECOND to YHWH. OVER the angels.
When is God used for Jesus? Psalm 45, allusion to Jesus as elohim not God.
Psalm 82 son of elohim not God. Exodus 7 Moses is SAID to be "elohim to pharaoh." Elohim encompasses 5-6 ontologies of being. In the GOOD sense. GOD, on the other hand only means God Almighty or false god in the English as we know it.
Also there is no BACKWARD figuring, since they said these things in the Aramaic, in Jesus' day, very close to the Hebrew in God terms. In other words when THEY said "theos" they said "elohim." So then this is key. THEOS would be the ONLY translation of ALL instances of "elohim," 90% for God Almighty, 10% for other kinds of "elohim."
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JW elders got one thing right. Maybe two. Never can tell...
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Wait, what! I thought since this is going on, I'd reply.
Do you mean that there is a different meaning than "greater" than what is in John 14:28? Is it He's greater and the same level at the same time (which would make sense since Jesus is the representative of God and Jesus speaks for God).
This is more of a English language question rather than theology about Jesus' divinity.
How can Jesus be greater and not greater at the same time?
(anyone can reply)
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This is erroneous to me. Why make the distinction between the Deity of Jesus and the father when there is none? It rather proves my point, than refutes it, no?
I really don't understand your point. the father is worshipped through Jesus, He said that as well. Remember? Jesus said that we could not know the father except through Him. Yikes. Again, the spirit is not worshipped directly, not sure what your point is.
Jesus implies otherwise. He states that He is with the father, and we are with Him. We know the father through Him,/Jesus. So we have a ''middleman'' Rabbi in your opinion, or what? What sort of odd middleman setup is this?
Or is it aaaalllllllllllllllll metaphor.
Sure seems like a lot of metaphor in the Bible. Jesus being called God, Jesus being called the creator, Jesus being said to have all the power in heaven and earth.
If that is all metaphor, what exactly isn't metaphor?
Hmm look at the wording..
Jesus has the description of through whom all things are, and we through Him'. This looks like a Godhead to me.
Actually, 'God and Lord mean the same thing. It's a poetic way of equating Jesus to the father.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I don't generally use the usual titles for translative purposes to go from Greek to Hebrew, but if we are being strict about deific title usage, wouldn't, by your own calculations, this verse be calling 'the father', 'Elohim', and Jesus, 'YHVH'?
//God..-->Elohim
//Lord..-->YHVH
I asked my ancesteral veneratives and they said nada. Soorry.
Actually, in the NT "God" and "lord" don't mean the same thing. "Lord" has two meanings in the Hebrew and Aramaic, and only one translation in the Koine. Adonai or adoni in the Hebrew, always "kurios" in the Koine. God and Jesus/lord 71 times, in the same sentence, never reversed in NT, Jesus/God and the Lord.
And God is never called, "adoni." Jesus was called this every time, IMHO. Samaritan woman, translated "sir." All the disciples, at the same time saying in 3 synoptics, "What sort of [man] is this who calms the winds and the seas?"
Martha to Jesus, "lord, had you been here, my brother hath not died." (Nobody speaks to God in this manner).
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