Jesus Resurrection

[leroy]

Well I can the same about you saying all or most scholars believe in jesus its a statement that is not backed up. I have books and web sights that say historians have a mythological movement about Jesus so neither one of us are ahead.

ok

Virtually all scholars who write on the subject agree that Jesus existed,[5][6][7][8]although scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate

 

[Subduction Zone]

Again this is only true in your own personal mind, most people would not consider the question dishonest.

I am not claiming 100% certainty, but why would someone die In the name of a myth that they themselves invented?


In your view where the apostles lying or where they simply mistaken when thy proclaimed the resurrection? …..is this a reasonable and honest question for you?

As asked it was dishonest since a "Yes or no" answer would not be sufficient.

And we have no idea what the apostles proclaimed. There are no writings by definite eyewitnesses. The Gospels not thought to be written by eyewitnesses and many of the letters of the New Testament are thought to be pseudonymous. As written a "yes or "no" answer would once again be inappropriate.

 

[Subduction Zone]

ok

Yes, most scholars believe that Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate and was baptized by John the Baptist. Neither of those are miraculous events in any way at all. Strangely enough the Gospel of John does not claim that Jesus was baptized. And John has a different date for the crucifixion. His was before Passover, not on it.

 

[leroy]

Then why did you use the "something that they know is a lie" argument? One could always claim that that sort of person was delusional as an excuse.

h.

I don’t get your point, the only argument that I making is that almost nobody would be willing to die for a lie that they themselves invented.

I could be taken as historical cretin (or nearly certain) that the apostles “saw something” that they interpreted as the risen Jesus……..agree? yes or no,………or is this an other dishonest question?

 

[leroy]

As asked it was dishonest since a "Yes or no" answer would not be sufficient.

And we have no idea what the apostles proclaimed. There are no writings by definite eyewitnesses. The Gospels not thought to be written by eyewitnesses and many of the letters of the New Testament are thought to be pseudonymous. As written a "yes or "no" answer would once again be inappropriate.

So are you suggesting that the authors of the gospels lied? What is your view?..........are these honest questions?..............can I ask you for a deteailed explanation on your view concerning the resurrection?.......was the proclamation of the resurrection caused by a hallucination, a lie invented by the apostles, a lie invented by the authors of the books in the new testament, i a lie invented by the church? What is your view? ¿is this a valid question?

 

[Riders]

ok

No they don't I just listed a bog list of Historians and authors and scholars who don't agree with that and I backed it up by providing a list.

Again you are just stating and restating the same thing over and over without any proof. I could claim that virtually all historians agree that Elvis lives that doesn't make it true. I provided a list of scholars who don't agree with that and you totally ignored.

 

[Riders]

So are you suggesting that the authors of the gospels lied? What is your view?..........are these honest questions?..............can I ask you for a deteailed explanation on your view concerning the resurrection?.......was the proclamation of the resurrection caused by a hallucination, a lie invented by the apostles, a lie invented by the authors of the books in the new testament, i a lie invented by the church? What is your view? ¿is this a valid question?

Its a Legend that Christians mistakenly believe is literally true.

 

[Riders]

Yes, most scholars believe that Jesus was crucified by Pontius Pilate and was baptized by John the Baptist. Neither of those are miraculous events in any way at all. Strangely enough the Gospel of John does not claim that Jesus was baptized. And John has a different date for the crucifixion. His was before Passover, not on it.

I provided a list of historian and scholars who don't agree that he exist and I have a few web sights who say there is a growing movement among Historians whoa re now saying he did not exist and its called the mythological movement.

At the same time I agree with you it doesn't matter if they believe Jesus existed only if he was raised from the dead.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So are you suggesting that the authors of the gospels lied? What is your view?..........are these honest questions?..............can I ask you for a deteailed explanation on your view concerning the resurrection?.......was the proclamation of the resurrection caused by a hallucination, a lie invented by the apostles, a lie invented by the authors of the books in the new testament, i a lie invented by the church? What is your view? ¿is this a valid question?

The authors of the gospels were merely repeating what was by then largely folklore. You should not look at the Jesus story as lies or not lies. Stories grow with the telling. Since the distortions are usually not dishonest they would not qualify as lies. I would drop the black and white approach to this subject.

 

[lukethethird]

I said that the majority of scholars accept these facts:



-Jesus died on the cross

- Was buried on a Tomb

- the tomb was found empty

- apostoles (and others) had post mortem apierences of Jesus.

- they honestly and sincerly belived that these experiences where real. (They didnt lie)

These are historical facts accepted by nearly all scholars (including non Christians)

My suggestion is that Jesus rising from the dead is the best explanation for those facts. Feel free to provide a better explanation

I would also like to know; do you conceder yourself a strong atheist, a weak atheist, an agnostic or what?

So they believe, so what? They read their Bible and they claim to believe it. Many don't believe in magic so there we go, we disagree.

 

[Riders]

So they believe, so what? They read their Bible and they claim to believe it. Many don't believe in magic so there we go, we disagree.

There are many scholars and a whole list of historians who don't believe Jesus existed at all and believe it was a myth.I gave them a list of some and all they can do is repeat all scholars believe on jesus over and over but have not come up with any explanations for all the scholars and historians I come up with,

So to me there no more arguing they're just mumbling the same thing over and over.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There are many scholars and a whole list of historians who don't believe Jesus existed at all and believe it was a myth.I gave them a list of some and all they can do is repeat all scholars believe on jesus over and over but have not come up with any explanations for all the scholars and historians I come up with,

So to me there no more arguing they're just mumbling the same thing over and over.

There are different degrees of mythicists. Some believe that Jesus existed but that all of the miracle tales about him are myths. For example we know that Abraham Lincoln existed. We also know that Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter was a myth.

 

[lukethethird]

There are different degrees of mythicists. Some believe that Jesus existed but that all of the miracle tales about him are myths. For example we know that Abraham Lincoln existed. We also know that Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter was a myth.

Believing Jesus existed in spite of the story is beyond me, I don't have an explanation for it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Believing Jesus existed in spite of the story is beyond me, I don't have an explanation for it.

That the man Jesus existed seems rather probably to me. That the magical being Jesus existed appears to be all but impossible. Most myths have a tiny seed of truth behind them. The various flood myths around the world were probably based upon different floods. Floods do happen. Global ones do not. But the fact that global floods do not happen does not mean that local floods do not happen. Just as the miracles of Jesus not happening does not prove that Jesus the man, possibly a faith healer and we should all know that faith healers are frauds, did not exist.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus Resurrection

The death and resurrection of Jesus in roughly 28 or 29 CE assertedby the Bible (many times) and by almost every living Christian. Yet there is not only no evidence that said resurrection ever occurred, but there is essentially no way to prove that somebody that died and came back to life over 2000 hrs ago.

"Yet there is not only no evidence that said resurrection ever occurred" Unquote.
Yes. One is right.
Quran the secure and pristine Word of G-d says that Jesus died a natural death*, the word used in this connection is mutawaffika, and was neither killed by some one nor Jesus died because of crucifixion.

Regards
_____________
*Quran
[3:56]
When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself, and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 3: Aal-e-`Imran

 

[Jollybear]

Well, what you are reporting here are stories from a book. Are accounts of X, as read on a book Y, evidence that X really took place?

Well, if yes, then the sky is the limit.

Your bar on believing the extraordinary is prettyy low, I am afraid.



Well, it does. You have that typical story that grows up with the unknown hero getting better and better. Then nothing really interesting really happens, apart some talks with figue trees and some demon castings, just to keep the audience interested, until at about 3/4 of the story everything goes kaput. Tragedy strikes, until you get the happy end with the hero getting victorious.

Standard Hollywood template.

Ciao

- viole

Lets get into some data.

1 corinthians 15

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance a : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead."

So....this is paul talking. Hes writing a letter to the corinthian church.

Notice some things underlined. Paul claims to be a witness and he knows the other witnesses. He also mentions persecutions.

Is he lying? Is it one big hoax? A fictional novel?

 

[lukethethird]

Lets get into some data.

1 corinthians 15

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance a : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead."

So....this is paul talking. Hes writing a letter to the corinthian church.

Notice some things underlined. Paul claims to be a witness and he knows the other witnesses. He also mentions persecutions.

Is he lying? Is it one big hoax? A fictional novel?

Paul saving souls, what a guy.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Lets get into some data.

1 corinthians 15

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance a : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead."

So....this is paul talking. Hes writing a letter to the corinthian church.

Notice some things underlined. Paul claims to be a witness and he knows the other witnesses. He also mentions persecutions.

Is he lying? Is it one big hoax? A fictional novel?

Yet Paul admitted earlier that he never saw Jesus. His only "seeing" of him was in a vision. And yes, he claims 500 people saw him. Well 1,000 people saw Elvis after he died. I wrote it down.

His unsubstantiated claims are extremely poor evidence. In fact if 500 people saw Jesus after he was crucified why is the only place that we read this tidbit in a letter written by Paul?

 

[leroy]

The authors of the gospels were merely repeating what was by then largely folklore. You should not look at the Jesus story as lies or not lies. Stories grow with the telling. Since the distortions are usually not dishonest they would not qualify as lies. I would drop the black and white approach to this subject.

....

Its a Legend that Christians mistakenly believe is literally true.

If the gospels and the resurrection where legends, these legends would have had to be invented by the apostoles (Paul, Peter, James etc.)

So the question remains, why where these people willing to die in the name of a legend that they themselves invented? ....they would have known that the resurrection is a myth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

....



If the gospels and the resurrection where legends, these legends would have had to be invented by the apostoles (Paul, Peter, James etc.)

So the question remains, why where these people willing to die in the name of a legend that they themselves invented? ....they would have known that the resurrection is a myth.

Paul was obviously off the deep end. And you do not have any clue as to how the rest lived or died.