Jesus Resurrection

[lukethethird]

Thats not feasable because it has the hallmarks of history. That can be shown from multiple sources, christian and other at that period and down the line.

In otherwords if its PURPOSELY written as fiction by the authors, then there was ONE BIG *** conspiracy to keep that a secret.

Its not feasable.

OK, but let's say the author wrote fiction and next thing we know everyone is believing it. The author is scratching his head like, WTF.

 

[leroy]

Where does it say that he did this? You are making an unwarranted assumption.

In Galatians 1:18-19, Paul says,

Then three years later [36 A.D.?] I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas [or Peter], and stayed with him fifteen days. 19But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother

So Paul did whent to jerusalem to meat the witnesses. He was is a position to know if Jesus was buried. And he was in a position to know about the 500.

So once again I ask, did Paul lied about his trip? Was the trip an hallucination? Did peter and James lied to Paul ?

 

[Jollybear]

The problem is that there are no witnesses. All we have are Paul's tall tales.

Again, how is it possible for paul to tell detailed false stories and YET according to you, TRULY believed the made up stories that originated with him? Hows that possible?

And why do you think that people will not did for "lies".

If your gonna debate, represent the issues correctly, otherwise wer gonna keep going in annoying, time wasting circles here.

I never said, nor ever implied that people will never die for lies. I said that no one would ever die for what they KNOW is a lie. And i have made this distinction very, very clear from day one here and keep making it.

Again, this is your error not mine.

No.......its your error for misrepresenting.

I gave you the example of David Koresh and Jim Jones. You could not find any real difference between those two and Paul.

And WHEN you gave me those examples i told you jim and david had to be examined on there own merit. I also told you that jim and david wernt witnesses and died for beliefs or causes that wer different then paul.

People can die for a cause, like the cause for freedom. Its not a tale or myth they believe in, its a way of life they want and they will die for it.

This is not pauls case. Paul is supposidly building this elaborate, detailed MYTH that he KNOWS is false and YET according to you, he somehow dont know its false.

That is the difference between paul and your 2 examples. And that makes no sense.

AGAIN....how can someone build a elaborate story thats false, they are the originator of it, and yet they could truly believe it, hows that possible?

 

[leroy]

I gave you the example of David Koresh and Jim Jones. You could not find any real difference between those two and Paul.

Don't know much about these guys, but my guess would be that the honestly and sincerly belived in the stuff they proclaimed. They did not lie.

 

[Jollybear]

OK, but let's say the author wrote fiction and next thing we know everyone is believing it. The author is scratching his head like, WTF.

Ok, good point. BUT....after everyone starts believing it, there getting threats, persecutions and myrters going on. Including the authors themselves. For instence, paul, one of the authors of the supposed fiction novel dont just write about his own persecutions, but others write about it too, so, theres that supposid conspiracy kicking in again.

However on top of all that, if the author wer to say "WTF", he could easily STOP all the persecutions and deaths and save lives by clearing up all the misunderstanding by just saying "ehem, a....guys, gals, sorry to tell you this, a hey rome too, this was all fiction. Rome, you dont need to kill them. Guys gals, recant these things, dont endanger your lives. It was fiction.

Boom, the myth and death would have stopped.

But theres more. People dont EASILY give up there lives. Its feasable to believe these people would have asked questions and we know they did because pauls letters wer in response to community churches and there questions, he mentions that in his writings.

They would have wanted some verification about what there dying for. Yes people die for beliefs, but, they dont give up there life that easy and beliefs with that much resolve are gonna come with questions. Which they would have been able to get from the authors.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In Galatians 1:18-19, Paul says,


So Paul did whent to jerusalem to meat the witnesses. He was is a position to know if Jesus was buried. And he was in a position to know about the 500.

So once again I ask, did Paul lied about his trip? Was the trip an hallucination? Did peter and James lied to Paul ?

Nope, it says nothing about the five hundred witnesses there. Once again you make an unjustified assumption.

Try again. You should be asking yourself why neither Petey or Jimmy said anything about them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Don't know much about these guys, but my guess would be that the honestly and sincerly belived in the stuff they proclaimed. They did not lie.

Bingo!!! We have a winner!!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Again, how is it possible for paul to tell detailed false stories and YET according to you, TRULY believed the made up stories that originated with him? Hows that possible?



If your gonna debate, represent the issues correctly, otherwise wer gonna keep going in annoying, time wasting circles here.

I never said, nor ever implied that people will never die for lies. I said that no one would ever die for what they KNOW is a lie. And i have made this distinction very, very clear from day one here and keep making it.




No.......its your error for misrepresenting.



And WHEN you gave me those examples i told you jim and david had to be examined on there own merit. I also told you that jim and david wernt witnesses and died for beliefs or causes that wer different then paul.

People can die for a cause, like the cause for freedom. Its not a tale or myth they believe in, its a way of life they want and they will die for it.

This is not pauls case. Paul is supposidly building this elaborate, detailed MYTH that he KNOWS is false and YET according to you, he somehow dont know its false.

That is the difference between paul and your 2 examples. And that makes no sense.

AGAIN....how can someone build a elaborate story thats false, they are the originator of it, and yet they could truly believe it, hows that possible?

Ooos, back to losing by breaking up a post excessively.

Try again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And since the topic is Paul at the moment here is a rather interesting video on him

 

[Jollybear]

Ooos, back to losing by breaking up a post excessively.

Try again.

Responding like that without answering my points is wasting time.

Cutting up a post is not any sign of dishonesty. People do it alot on here and its normal.

I do it because i have more then one thought pertaining to more then one section of your post.

Why even poke at it? Why not just answer my points?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Responding like that without answering my points is wasting time.

Cutting up a post is not any sign of dishonesty. People do it alot on here and its normal.

I do it because i have more then one thought pertaining to more then one section of your post.

Why even poke at it? Why not just answer my points?

Your previous response was a waste of both of our time. I explained previously why that was a ride and dishonest technique. Blaming others for your failures is rather immature. There is no need to write a book for every sentence that you see.

cutting up posts is not necessarily dishonest. Doing it excessively almost always is dishonest.

 

[Jollybear]

Your previous response was a waste of both of our time. I explained previously why that was a ride and dishonest technique. Blaming others for your failures is rather immature. There is no need to write a book for every sentence that you see.

cutting up posts is not necessarily dishonest. Doing it excessively almost always is dishonest.

Everything you just said just now is dishonest.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Everything you just said just now is dishonest.

Pure projection on your part. You can't find anything dishonest in that post. I already warned you about that technique, it seems you thought that you were losing the debate and you had to go back to that old behavior.

That reminds me, I was going to see if you could be honest. I asked you if you knew of any failed prophecies in the Bible. Why did you dodge that question?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You might also want to view the video I linked. It explains why the whole trip to Damascus was nonsense.

 

[leroy]

Nope, it says nothing about the five hundred witnesses there. Once again you make an unjustified assumption.

Try again. You should be asking yourself why neither Petey or Jimmy said anything about them.

He went to Jerusalem to talk to the witnesses and learn about Jesus, his life and his teachings. He was in a position to know stuff about Jesus.

The 500 come from an early creed, if such a creed existed Paul was in a position to know about it and report it.

We cannot establish as fact that the 500 appearance took place, but we can establish as fact that such an early creed existed.

 

[leroy]

Bingo!!! We have a winner!!!

Bingo!!! We have a winner!!!

The point that Jollybear is making is that if you believe that Paul was lying you have to account for some stuff, if you believe that he was delusional you most account for some other stuff. And the same is true with all the other witnesses that claimed to have seen the risen Jesus.

So where these claims made by the apostles (and other people) of the risen Jesus lies, legends or delusions? How do you explain them? Why don’t you provide a detailed version of your view?


BTW, given the evidence that I provided, do you know accept that Jesus was likely to have been buried on a tomb?

 

[leroy]

And since the topic is Paul at the moment here is a rather interesting video on him

And we are back, now you are saying that the visions that Paul had where lies, (not delusions) you are simply arbitrarily changing from one view to another. Please define you view…………….does the video represent your view?

 

[Jollybear]

Pure projection on your part. You can't find anything dishonest in that post. I already warned you about that technique, it seems you thought that you were losing the debate and you had to go back to that old behavior.

That reminds me, I was going to see if you could be honest. I asked you if you knew of any failed prophecies in the Bible. Why did you dodge that question?

Ok, look, ill make a exchange deal with you. Ill answer your question about prophesies if you answer my pending questions on variation vs contradiction, on memory, on pointing out pauls suposid contradictions in his three repeats of his demascus experience and tell me HOW a person can make up a false claim that originates with themselves and then somehow make themselves TRULY believe it?

Ill watch the video tonight. Im crunched on time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He went to Jerusalem to talk to the witnesses and learn about Jesus, his life and his teachings. He was in a position to know stuff about Jesus.

The 500 come from an early creed, if such a creed existed Paul was in a position to know about it and report it.

We cannot establish as fact that the 500 appearance took place, but we can establish as fact that such an early creed existed.

Again, you are concluding that only because your myth fails if that is not what he did. That is not a valid reason to say that is what he did.

By the way you should watch the video I linked. It tells why the Damascus story was likely a bunch of hooey.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The point that Jollybear is making is that if you believe that Paul was lying you have to account for some stuff, if you believe that he was delusional you most account for some other stuff. And the same is true with all the other witnesses that claimed to have seen the risen Jesus.

So where these claims made by the apostles (and other people) of the risen Jesus lies, legends or delusions? How do you explain them? Why don’t you provide a detailed version of your view?


BTW, given the evidence that I provided, do you know accept that Jesus was likely to have been buried on a tomb?

We don't know what the apostles said. I don't know how many times I have to repeat that. The left no record.